First Cycle - Need some advice please (T400 & NPP Stack)

[Brando1289]

Started my first cycle recently (T400 & NPP) - I'm currently 5 weeks in.

Stats:
Turning 37 in a month
6'3
213 lbs

First few weeks, my dosage was as follows:

Weekly:
T400 - 700 mg
NPP - 300 mg

Had severe PIP to start out - so eased my way into the cycle. Last few weeks things have gotten much better in terms of pain, here is what I have been doing for last few 2 weeks:

Weekly:
T400 - 800 mg
NPP - 600 mg

Not really seeing a huge amount of change in physique - just a small amount; although I believe my first few weeks I was calorie and carb deficient (3200 cal and 250 g carbs daily). I am now up to 3800 cal, 390 g carbs, 340 protein and 95 g fat. Since I changed my diet - my weight went quickly from 203 to 213, but kind of stuck at this weight for last week. I'm lifting 5 days a week - and 4 days of cardio, not a huge amount of cardio - but maybe a total of 100 minutes/week (low intensity).

Side comment as well - I am not using an anti-e at all. Was told only to use aromasin if warranted and haven't noticed any signs of high e at all as of yet.

Really want to avoid wasting this cycle and not seeing the results I'm after - any help/advice/suggestions for me to optimize things would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Milton]

why did you choose this as a first cycle?

 

[Onk]

Started my first cycle recently (T400 & NPP) - I'm currently 5 weeks in.

Stats:
Turning 37 in a month
6'3
213 lbs

First few weeks, my dosage was as follows:

Weekly:
T400 - 700 mg
NPP - 300 mg

Had severe PIP to start out - so eased my way into the cycle. Last few weeks things have gotten much better in terms of pain, here is what I have been doing for last few 2 weeks:

Weekly:
T400 - 800 mg
NPP - 600 mg

Not really seeing a huge amount of change in physique - just a small amount; although I believe my first few weeks I was calorie and carb deficient (3200 cal and 250 g carbs daily). I am now up to 3800 cal, 390 g carbs, 340 protein and 95 g fat. Since I changed my diet - my weight went quickly from 203 to 213, but kind of stuck at this weight for last week. I'm lifting 5 days a week - and 4 days of cardio, not a huge amount of cardio - but maybe a total of 100 minutes/week (low intensity).

Side comment as well - I am not using an anti-e at all. Was told only to use aromasin if warranted and haven't noticed any signs of high e at all as of yet.

Really want to avoid wasting this cycle and not seeing the results I'm after - any help/advice/suggestions for me to optimize things would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

you went up 5 lbs in 5 weeks whilst eating in a deficit (so you think) and you call that NOT a huge change in physique? jesus man, steroids aren't a magic pill.

also, just exactly are the signs of high e that you may notice? what you have chosen is to start your insurance AFTER an accident to mitigate damages post rather than pre. Unless you like the sound of bitch tits that is. It's not a long drawn out showing of sides, and some people don't get the sides in the first place!

 

[Brando1289]

I was advised by someone with decades of experience that this stack would have mild side effects and produce very good gains. The two most important things that I was after.

Obviously everyone has an opinion - and some might say this isn't an ideal first stack. And it wasn't my first choice either to do on my first one - but this person is someone who's opinion I trusted and valued, and because of his experience I went with what he suggested.

At this point - I don't want to alter or change what I'm taking, I just want advice on ways to optimize things.

Ie.

•Am I deficient anywhere in my macros?

•I'm using the ventrogluteal for all my injections - 23 Guage 1 inch, which I like a lot but read maybe 1.5 would be better. I don't have a lot of fat in this spot so hoping I can stick with 1 inch

•injection schedule is:

Tues AM: T400/NPP
Thurs: NPP
Saturday: T400/NPP

Thanks

 

[Brando1289]

It was probably more like 10 lbs in just over 4 weeks. And for half of this I think I was in a deficit. Midway into my 5th week now. And maybe I am expecting too much, but asking for advice and opinions so I can optimize things can't hurt.

For high e - I was just watching out for any sort of nipple tenderness, changes in testicles, bloating or low libido. Depending on who you talk to or what you read - some think you need the anti e from the get go and others believe everyone reacts differently and anti e is only kept for precaution and implemented when needed. I will be the first to admit I don't know a lot about this aspect of a cycle and since I've received advice from both sides of the spectrum, tough to know who''s right/wrong. But basically I was told there was a good chance with my dosages, my natural t wouldn't be shut down and I wouldn't need an anti-e. Just to keep as a precaution in case.

All I have is aromasin - if I was going to implement this now, what dosage would you recommend.

Thx

 

[Roush]

Weekly:
T400 - 800 mg
NPP - 600 mg

Not really seeing a huge amount of change in physique - just a small amount; although I believe my first few weeks I was calorie and carb deficient (3200 cal and 250 g carbs daily). I am now up to 3800 cal, 390 g carbs, 340 protein and 95 g fat. Since I changed my diet - my weight went quickly from 203 to 213,

Side comment as well - I am not using an anti-e at all. Was told only to use aromasin if warranted and haven't noticed any signs of high e at all as of yet..

at those dosages i guarantee you that your estrogen and prolactin will be elevated; simply waiting for the 'tail tail' signs of elevated E , like bitch tits , and then act when that happens is not a good idea and definitely not proactive . blood work will tell you you have high E , don't wait until the ugly sides come up ( thats like deciding to wear a condom after you contract an STD , the point of the condom is not to get the std in the first place ).

and why do you not think you don't have Estrogen related sides ? heck you just put on 10 pounds of water weight in a couple weeks .. i guarantee you thats not muscle , thats water retention from elevated estrogen (as well as additional carbs in your diet). so again , fact is you probably already have elevated estrogen , don't wait for the bitch tits and nipple lactation to do anything about it.


geting an AI protocol together would be the best way to optimize this cycle at this point thus far imo

 

[Brando1289]

why did you choose this as a first cycle?

This was what a friend of mine recommended. I wanted something that I would see actual results from and would be mild in terms of side effects. It wasn't my first choice - but my friend has 20+ years of experience and said this stack would be the way to go. I also am not really looking to do endless cycles or enter any competitions - I'd be perfectly happy just to do one or two cycles and add a legit 20-30 lbs to my frame, and hopefully retaining as much as possible. Have a really tough time adding size naturally - so if I could add some size to my frame and be able to retain some/most of it, that's really all I'm looking for here.

 

[BigSwolenPussy]

Honestly, if you are already gaining weight headed into 5 weeks with what you are using, Id say you are doing good. Your test should be kicking in now so get ready for the gains to start. Personally, I think that you are using more test then you need too on a first cycle and definitely didn't need the NPP added to it. At this point, ride it out and hope that you don't have any issues because if you do, you wont know what compound caused it.

Good Luck

 

[carverelli]

Honestly, if you are already gaining weight headed into 5 weeks with what you are using, Id say you are doing good. Your test should be kicking in now so get ready for the gains to start. Personally, I think that you are using more test then you need too on a first cycle and definitely didn't need the NPP added to it. At this point, ride it out and hope that you don't have any issues because if you do, you wont know what compound caused it.

Good Luck

I'd definitely start using your AI. No doubt E2 is elevated. Don't wait till you have issues before you address it

 

[Onk]

I was advised by someone with decades of experience that this stack would have mild side effects and produce very good gains. The two most important things that I was after.

Obviously everyone has an opinion - and some might say this isn't an ideal first stack. And it wasn't my first choice either to do on my first one - but this person is someone who's opinion I trusted and valued, and because of his experience I went with what he suggested.

At this point - I don't want to alter or change what I'm taking, I just want advice on ways to optimize things.

Ie.

***8226;Am I deficient anywhere in my macros?

***8226;I'm using the ventrogluteal for all my injections - 23 Guage 1 inch, which I like a lot but read maybe 1.5 would be better. I don't have a lot of fat in this spot so hoping I can stick with 1 inch

***8226;injection schedule is:

Tues AM: T400/NPP
Thurs: NPP
Saturday: T400/NPP

Thanks

that's poor thinking. What if 10 doctors came out and told you he was wrong? What if peer reviewed research papers showed contrary advice? Would you not change your ways? What if it was 10-20 guys on a forum that know that research and they gave it to you?

As sure thing:
- you need to use your AI
- in such a short time, your weight is water, not muscle, esp since you allude a lack of dietary knowledge
- we don't know if you aren't eating enough as you didn't give us your TDEE
- without TDEE, if you're still in deficit, no matter what you do it won't be enough
- you're injecting 3x a week and only using 2 muscles....which gives them less than a week recovery time. You need to use dorso glutes, delts, lats, pecs, tris, bis, traps....something else! I started with delts then pecs. Lats are easy enough if you're flexible, and quads are easy as anything. Traps are also very easy, though you can get near a nerve and that always makes me jump
- 23g is decent size for ventros. I only use that for dorso, then 25g for everywhere else

 

[Brando1289]

that's poor thinking. What if 10 doctors came out and told you he was wrong? What if peer reviewed research papers showed contrary advice? Would you not change your ways? What if it was 10-20 guys on a forum that know that research and they gave it to you?

As sure thing:
- you need to use your AI
- in such a short time, your weight is water, not muscle, esp since you allude a lack of dietary knowledge
- we don't know if you aren't eating enough as you didn't give us your TDEE
- without TDEE, if you're still in deficit, no matter what you do it won't be enough
- you're injecting 3x a week and only using 2 muscles....which gives them less than a week recovery time. You need to use dorso glutes, delts, lats, pecs, tris, bis, traps....something else! I started with delts then pecs. Lats are easy enough if you're flexible, and quads are easy as anything. Traps are also very easy, though you can get near a nerve and that always makes me jump
- 23g is decent size for ventros. I only use that for dorso, then 25g for everywhere else

First off, thanks for the advice.

Going to start the aromasin just to be on the safe-side here - is 25 mg every other day sufficient?

My first pin was in the thigh - and pain was nothing less than excruciating, could barely put pressure on the leg and lasted a good 10 days; not sure what I hit, but I really don't think I can do that again. Almost made me want to scrap the plan altogether right from the get-go.

Ventrogluteal doesn't give me any pain after I got the first few out of the way - and not sure if this is common, but always have a pretty pronounced large lump for a few days after injection. Doesn't hurt or anything - but worried the issue might be that the 1" pin is not getting all the way to the muscle and if I need to switch to 1.5". I was alternating which ventrogluteal muscle I was hitting more than once in a week. So maybe since I was hitting this muscle more than one time in a week - and really only 2 days apart (Tues to Thurs), it didn't give enough time for the gear to dissipate? Thoughts?

Based on your advice and that I personally didn't like the fact that I was hitting the ventrogluteal more than 1x in a week, I switched things up a bit this week - let me know if this would be a good plan:

Tues - T400 (100 mg)/NPP (200 mg) all in Left Ventro
Thurs - NPP (100 mg) in Left Delt, (100 mg) in Right Delt
Sat - T400 (100 mg)/NPP (200 mg) all in Right Ventro

Could I just continue on with this plan for the rest of my cycle - or would you advise me still to find some other injection points?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Onk]

First off, thanks for the advice.

Going to start the aromasin just to be on the safe-side here - is 25 mg every other day sufficient?

My first pin was in the thigh - and pain was nothing less than excruciating, could barely put pressure on the leg and lasted a good 10 days; not sure what I hit, but I really don't think I can do that again. Almost made me want to scrap the plan altogether right from the get-go.

Ventrogluteal doesn't give me any pain after I got the first few out of the way - and not sure if this is common, but always have a pretty pronounced large lump for a few days after injection. Doesn't hurt or anything - but worried the issue might be that the 1" pin is not getting all the way to the muscle and if I need to switch to 1.5". I was alternating which ventrogluteal muscle I was hitting more than once in a week. So maybe since I was hitting this muscle more than one time in a week - and really only 2 days apart (Tues to Thurs), it didn't give enough time for the gear to dissipate? Thoughts?

Based on your advice and that I personally didn't like the fact that I was hitting the ventrogluteal more than 1x in a week, I switched things up a bit this week - let me know if this would be a good plan:

Tues - T400 (100 mg)/NPP (200 mg) all in Left Ventro
Thurs - NPP (100 mg) in Left Delt, (100 mg) in Right Delt
Sat - T400 (100 mg)/NPP (200 mg) all in Right Ventro

Could I just continue on with this plan for the rest of my cycle - or would you advise me still to find some other injection points?

Thanks in advance.

25mg EoD should be fine...though you'd need blood work to be 100% sure.

no kidding your pins would be hard to start, your mate started you on t400...which is high concentration and usually comes with a lot of associated pain. Most first cycles are test e/c at 500mg/wk for a reason. Those are usually dosed at 200/250mg/ml. So 2 ml/cc a week and done. Moreover, those people also know how they respond to testosterone. Yourself, you don't know if the high test or npp is what may be giving you "gains".

Matters where in the thigh you hit. Outside of the quad (vastus lateralis) is where you're meant to hit. Hit the centre or too far right (hamstring) and you'll have issues.

Hitting muscles more than once a week isn't just about the gear dispersing, it's about not wanting to get scar tissue. Personally, I don't want to go to my doctor and need to get a special ultrasound to burn away the scar tissue as that's on your permanent medical history and shows drug use.

So yes, more sites are necessary. Glutes and delts gives you 4. Since you're doing 3x a week I'd get pecs as well. They're huge muscles and once you pass the irrational fear of hitting your heart, you'll be fine. Sites you don't need to stretch to hit and can see yourself pinning are oft best.

 

[oldmusclemike]

First welcome to the board

OMG . I don't understand how a smart person can say I'll wait until I see my tits get big and then do something. Like working on the roof with my safety rope over at my lunch box so if I start to fall I'll go get it. Did you research all the possible sides of High and low Estrogen. And but Estradiol which is E2.

Test at 800mgs week for a first cycle is a waist. And as well why the NPP. YOU said well you want to see some results, quickly, I paraphrase. Do you really understand what AAS does. It helps speed up the growth of muscle by changing your metabolism in turning protein into muscle. Well that's just a laymen's quick answer but the meaning is it helps what you do in the gym and what you eat. As was said it's not a magic pill.

Now you speak of one cycle, ha. I said that when I did my first cycle. I have heard 9 out of ten guys say that.

You talk of 20-30 pound gains. Before the cycle ends or 6 months later. Water , water and more water that's what that is. A man can only gain / grow a max of LMM of 20 lbs in one year. Look it up and ask some of the vets. Age time training (in years) and how many cycles effects that number. You have heard of diminishing returns well that's the same. You think the pros put on more then 3-5 pounds of LMM in a year. NO check out the stats for the Olympians.

I could go on and on about what you don't know and your friend. 20 years experience and no study , well that's not the marker, just realize that. All you needed was test e at 5oomgs and maybe test p as a kick start. Your 800mgs can be dropped to 500mgs. All you are doing is increasing the enzyme of aromatase. The only increase you are getting with 800mgs test and the addition of NPP is side effects. Simple Simon says ...huh , keep it simple. 500mgs Test and an AI food and train. In my experience you will see NO MORE LMM gain with what you are doing then if just the test.

So read up on Estrogen , prolactin and progesterone. Look into aromatizing and what happens with some of these compounds and that some promote it and SOME others little to non. Look into other site to inject, Onk gave you reasons. AND hey I hate quads but some like it. Read all the stickys here on this forum

One last thing on your 20 yr guy. I started in 80' yep. I owned a gym and I started out with old school just stab n run. But I have spent many hours and several years learning more. Learn to filter everything you hear and get on this forum and discuss it with the known vets. Use Google and many times it will bring you right back to this forum.

Good luck with your cycle and your reading.