GH -- IV use

[Billy_Bathgate]

Ok so.. I wanna talk about this and get some opinions. First let me share a couple facts I have out of my pdr.

Bioavailability

IV = 100%
SubQ = 75%
IM = 63%

Distribution IV = .07L/kg

Metabolism
IV = t1/2 of .36hrs
SubQ = t1/2 of 3.8hrs
IM = t1/2 of 4.9hrs
*longer half live of Sub and IM due to slower absorbtion.

Mean Clearance = .14L/hr/kg


Now, there was some guys back maybe 6 or 7 months on Animal's board that did it IV. They all raved about it. Said it felt much much more pronounced.

I wonder if this would be better. With the talk of longer acting HGH, there has been disscusion of the effectiveness of short bursts of GH being better.

Obviously, no body should try this unless they are licenced or have the qualifications for IV administration, as it is much much more serious than other means.

Thoughts?
The plasma concentrations of Single Dose Average Plasma Concentraions vs Time in Normal Adult Volunteers (see attatchment, I will do my best in MS Paint, I have no scanner)

 

[natty]

well since its a faster acting way to use it i would think it would produce better results,and possibly more sides by spiking it so fast so high... the real problem lies in the actual administration of it... an IV isnt exactly a cake walk for most people to attach to themselves, especially without help.

 

[Billy_Bathgate]

Ya, thats why I put in that disclaimer. For hypothetical reasonings, lets assume you have hired a nurse practitioner to come to your house and administer it every day.

 

[supergirl]

hey Billy.. clarityandfocus over on cuttingedgemuscle has used gh IV and has reported great results.. talk to him

but it may spike and fall faster this way.... just a thought...

and administration is a bitch... but can be done.

 

[Brett_Weir]

I can't see it it is too deep for me........Using an iv is fairly invasive....It would conjecture images of being sick to me......To each man his own fate........

 

[gorilla_boy]

I can't see it it is too deep for me........Using an iv is fairly invasive....It would conjecture images of being sick to me......To each man his own fate........

He's talking about poking a vein with a slin pin, like heroin.

 

[Brett_Weir]

I didn't want to be a spoil sport........It conjurs up the image of the Fleetwood Mac Album Cover with the iv.............The only thing i would consider is an iv drip of Viagra........hehehe

 

[Billy_Bathgate]

Thanks SG Ill look for his comments on it. The other two guys I know of that have done it also reported great things.

I was hoping to look for some disscusion on theory reguarding it.

 

[supergirl]

Thanks SG Ill look for his comments on it. The other two guys I know of that have done it also reported great things.

I was hoping to look for some disscusion on theory reguarding it.

well the theory i touched on by the statement.. taht IV usage may cause a spike and a faster fall.. meaning that levels will not be as constant and injections may been go be done more frequently...
bascially cutting down on thd half life by one half.. see what i mean??

even from looking at the chart, you see a rapid drop rather than with sub-q it is more constant... if i am understanding the chart correctly...

 

[Billy_Bathgate]

well the theory i touched on by the statement.. taht IV usage may cause a spike and a faster fall.. meaning that levels will not be as constant and injections may been go be done more frequently...
bascially cutting down on thd half life by one half.. see what i mean??

even from looking at the chart, you see a rapid drop rather than with sub-q it is more constant... if i am understanding the chart correctly...

Ya that was my whole point. I understand that.

I wonder if, and if it is how much, better than a lower and longer level. Since our body works in spikes naturally, I wonder about it.

Obvioulsy from the chart, you can see that the max plasma levels are near 10x as high as Sub or IM. If GH's benefit is causes by the high spikes in levels, then IV would in fact be much much better.

Im just not sure the degree of difference it makes from a theoritical standpoint. The 3 users that I know of all thought so...

 

[supergirl]

Ya that was my whole point. I understand that.

I wonder if, and if it is how much, better than a lower and longer level. Since our body works in spikes naturally, I wonder about it.

Obvioulsy from the chart, you can see that the max plasma levels are near 10x as high as Sub or IM. If GH's benefit is causes by the high spikes in levels, then IV would in fact be much much better.

Im just not sure the degree of difference it makes from a theoritical standpoint. The 3 users that I know of all thought so...

ok.. high rises and falls in gh can throw the body into a sort of "shock" and make it work overtime to recover... basically because there will be constant fluctuations in IGF-1 and sugar levels will be thrown off.. i wonder how an intake of insulin or carbs would affect levels... and if a sudden drop, what will the effect be on your actual pituatary gland... will it be sent a message to actually turn off or to turn on and levels are so low...

so in theory, let's say it sends a message to the Pituatary to start producing gh to recover from the sudden drop and loss, that theoritically may be awesome as you are now able to receive the benefits of exogenous AND endogenous gh... almost like tricking your own natural production in a way... ya follow me??

now, if that theory is reversed and a sudden drop acutally causes a negative effect on your pit gland, your natural production might be suppressed for an even longer period therefore frequent exogenous shots will be necessary to keep gh circulating.. sometime when you shock your system, it does not bounce back but shuts down.. so that is just a thought too...

but the one thing i do see with IV administration, is MUCH more frequent shots!!! it is impossible to keep constant levels with IV and everything i have ever read on gh and proper usage testifies that constant levels produce the best results... Stablizing the body and hormones will keep the body "normal"

just some thoughts

 

[Billy_Bathgate]

i have ever read on gh and proper usage testifies that constant levels produce the best results...

That is what actually prompted my questions. With the newer longer acting GH, there has been much debate that it wont be as effective. Why, because our body uses quick short bursts and NOT steady even levels.


If I were to try it, it would be 1 - 2x a day max, to fully take advantage of the sharp spike.

Good thoughts though, thanks

 

[iced]

maybe mixing the GH IV with some of the nutropin, although this could get costly, but im sure you could down the daily doasge to 2-3ius of regular GH

 

[rookie]

I have also thought of combining the two...........

main goals of using GH is to increase IGF-1 circulating...........i could see a benefit in ALWAYS having increased circulating amounts of IGF-1 by taking the long acting Nutropin Depot, but then also maybe throw in an IV shot of GH shortly after lifting, or before bed. When your body would "naturally" be releasing extra GH.

The quick short spike would of course result in even more IGF-1 being produced and hence the positive effects from even more protein synthesis and nitrogen balance increase during the spike.

I'm taking the somaject sub Q now and like it well, comparable to humatrope of hologram serostim in my book, and am searching for a decent price on some of the nutropin depot but have been unable to do so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hhajdo]

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/3/1222?ijkey=6/cXrc3dMunIo

Continuous GH infusion works fine, the only negative effect noticed in this study was slightly reduced lipolytic effect.

It remains uncertain whether close imitation of the physiological pulsatile GH pattern determines the effects of GH treatment in humans. However, human studies have reported comparable metabolic responses to short-term constant and intermittent GH exposure. The aim of the study was to compare the metabolic effects of GH after continuous and intermittent sc delivery. In a parallel design, 14 GH-treated GH-deficient patients (mean age, 37 yr; mean body mass index, 27.4 kg/m2) were studied during steady state at the start of the study and after 6 months. Seven patients received daily injections (inj) in the evening as usual, and 7 received a continuous infusion (inf) of GH by means of a portable pump. The GH dose was kept unchanged before and during the study. Serum levels of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) tended to increase in the patients switched to constant infusion (from 175 ± 36 to 209 ± 50 µg/L), but the differences obtained during the two regimens [+34.3 (inf) vs. -11.9 (inj)] were not significant (P = 0.34). Serum levels of IGF-II (P = 0.71) and IGF-binding protein (IGFBP)-3 (P = 0.75) were identical during the two modes of treatment. Serum levels of IGFBP-1 (P = 0.72), IGFBP-2 (P = 0.34), and GH-binding protein (P = 0.75) were unaffected by treatment regimen. Serum levels of free fatty acids, reflecting lipolysis, decreased significantly (16%) in the group switched to GH infusion (difference, -99.8 vs. +5 µmol/L; P < 0.03). The GH pattern did not influence insulin sensitivity (P = 0.71) or glucose effectiveness (P = 0.15) derived from Bergman’s minimal model. Similarly, the two treatment regimens had no differential impact on lipoprotein levels, bone metabolism, or body composition. In conclusion, continuous and intermittent administrations of GH for 6 months are comparable with respect to the IGF-IGFBP axis, whereas intermittent exposure may be of importance for the lipolytic effect of GH. The data on insulin sensitivity and lipoproteins suggest that constant GH exposure is as safe as intermittent GH administration

 

[hhajdo]

Another interesting study - continuous infusion was more effective in increasing IGF-1 but it also increased CYP3A4 activity

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Nov;283(5):E1008-15 Related Articles, Links


Growth hormone secretion pattern is an independent regulator of growth hormone actions in humans.

Jaffe CA, Turgeon DK, Lown K, Demott-Friberg R, Watkins PB.

Divisions of Endocrinology and Metabolism, University of Michigan Medical Center, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109, USA. cjaffe@umich.edu

The importance of gender-specific growth hormone (GH) secretion pattern in the regulation of growth and metabolism has been demonstrated clearly in rodents. We recently showed that GH secretion in humans is also sexually dimorphic. Whether GH secretion pattern regulates the metabolic effects of GH in humans is largely unknown. To address this question, we administered the same daily intravenous dose of GH (0.5 mg. m(-2). day(-1)) for 8 days in different patterns to nine GH-deficient adults. Each subject was studied on four occasions: protocol 1 (no treatment), protocol 2 (80% daily dose at 0100 and 10% daily dose at 0900 and 1700), protocol 3 (8 equal boluses every 3 h), and protocol 4 (continuous GH infusion). The effects of GH pattern on serum IGF-I, IGF-binding protein (IGFBP)-3, osteocalcin, and urine deoxypyridinoline were measured. Hepatic CYP1A2 and CYP3A4 activities were assessed by the caffeine and erythromycin breath tests, respectively. Protocols 3 and 4 were the most effective in increasing serum IGF-I and IGFBP-3, whereas protocols administering pulsatile GH had the greatest effects on markers of bone formation and resorption. All GH treatments decreased CYP1A2 activity, and the effect was greatest for pulsatile GH. Pulsatile GH decreased, whereas continuous GH infusion increased, CYP3A4 activity. These data demonstrate that GH pulse pattern is an independent parameter of GH action in humans. Gender differences in drug metabolism and, potentially, gender differences in growth rate may be explained by sex-specific GH secretion patterns.

 

[Clarityandfocus]

hey Billy.. clarityandfocus over on cuttingedgemuscle has used gh IV and has reported great results.. talk to him

but it may spike and fall faster this way.... just a thought...

and administration is a bitch... but can be done.

Hmmmm.... yeah, well after going IV, soon to be a year this summer, I will never go back to sub-q. I pay too much for the hormone to use it any other way. The goal is to get it into the bloodstream and into the liver, where it belongs. I just skip a step... why wait for it to wander it's way from a sub-q shot for hours, slowly eeking into the bloodstream? IV gets more bang for my buck, utilizing 100% of every shot. Speaking for myself, it is the IGF-1 levels I want to stay elevated 24 hrs a day, not necessarily the hgh. One sub-q shot has a brief half-life of a couple of hours anyway, while losing a large portion of the milligram content. I prefer one or two good bangs per day, confident all of the precious hormone is being utilized by the liver, within a gaugeable window. To me, it's kind of like the difference between using Hum-R and log. The log is much easier to guage and monitor it's window of opportunity. It has a much more convenient and flexible mode of application. Makes me smile.

Clarity

P.S. As SG knows, I am a little crazy. What seems normal to me is often not in reality. She helps me keep in check. I would not be in the good place that I am today without her reality checks. It took me a little while to recover from the spanking you (SG) gave me after hearing of this...lol, but I think I might have gotten away with this one.

 

[thunderson411]

excuse me while i fire a bolus into my forehead.....

 

[thunderson411]

holy shit, i just actually read all that shit. u guys are serious arent u?

 

[thunderson411]

Thats what my first post was about. .. Cant i just jam a big ass cannon in myself and all the good shit happen to me...... ic now that that is not the case....