HCG not raising above 300

[Nomoobs]

Question, I have tried taking a break from TRT and using HCG at 2000iu three times a week for 5 weeks and never could get my TT over 300. My TT before TRT was around 220. Should I try it longer before adding clomid? I basically want to try taking a break and seeing if I can do a restart. Can I do 4 weeks again of HCG and get to 300 then do an extended clomid restart? Ive been on TRT for almost 3 years and would like to see how I feel on clomid and then slowly taper off. Thank you for any help.

 

[Alpin]

Give me a brief description of how you are dosing the HCG ?
300 is not enough for a successful restart. You would need to hit atleast 500 TT on HCG. The higher the better. Then you stop the HCG and begin the SERM phase (clomid, nolva)
whats your Estradiol level?
Any use of an a.i. ?
You either make it or break it on HCG when restarting off TRT. Sorry.
why you stopping TRT?

 

[Alpin]

Sounds like you are taking WAY too much HCG.
I find anything over 500 i.u. a dose is just raising too much intertesticular Testosterone that arimidex can't even control. Keep in mind HCG is biphasic.
Means you can dose it E3D.

 

[Nomoobs]

Last time I tried this my estrodial was 18. Yes I used AI. Im stopping because I fear the long term risks of heart problems etc and I find it a pia to always be pinning and worrying about where I am at. Dr set the dosing at 2000iu monday wednesday friday. He is old school and likes to do breaks every 12 weeks for 4 weeks. Not sure if thats just too much HCG and I should try lowering it and taking it for longer to see if it goes up.

 

[Alpin]

Last time I tried this my estrodial was 18. Yes I used AI. Im stopping because I fear the long term risks of heart problems etc and I find it a pia to always be pinning and worrying about where I am at. Dr set the dosing at 2000iu monday wednesday friday. He is old school and likes to do breaks every 12 weeks for 4 weeks. Not sure if thats just too much HCG and I should try lowering it and taking it for longer to see if it goes up.

What long term risks of heart problems?
Are you sure your doctor is guiding you down the right path?
LOW TESTOSTERONE causes heart problems, arteriosclerosis, atrial fibrillation as well as a whole host of other health problems linked to EARLY DEATH.
HCG is no long term treatment for TRT.
Sounds like your doctor is a real piece of work.
The only real reason I see to take a break from TRT is to elevate sperm count for a brief period of time when using HCG.
Your doses are way too high for HCG. Given these doses u are very likely primary hypogonadal. Which means HCG won't do much for yoy in terms of elevated Testosterone.

 

[Nomoobs]

Idk Ive read that latest study at the VA and it has me a little worried. I kinda just wish I could do without it. Im going to a different doctor tomorrow and going to get my current protocol labs done since Im still on TRT. He treats a bunch of people at work and does not do breaks every 12 weeks. He does use clomid with test cyp or hcg depending on the person. Guess well see....

 

[Alpin]

Idk Ive read that latest study at the VA and it has me a little worried. I kinda just wish I could do without it. Im going to a different doctor tomorrow and going to get my current protocol labs done since Im still on TRT. He treats a bunch of people at work and does not do breaks every 12 weeks. He does use clomid with test cyp or hcg depending on the person. Guess well see....

Clomid is counter productive while on TRT.
Clomid stimulates the pituitary to release LH/FSH.
2 totally different things when dealing with TRT.
HCG is used while on TRT...
That VA study was flawed....
Those guys had prior history of heart problems, diabetes, poorly monitored TRT protocols, their Estradiol levels were never even monitored in that study. Estradiol causes blood clots too if it's too high.

 

[Megatron28]

Did you use hCG the whole time you were on TRT or just when you decided to stop? If the latter, it may take more than 5 weeks to get your testicles working again.

Also, can you confirm whether you were diagnosed as Primary or Secondary Hypogonadotropic?

 

[IMT staff]

Sounds like your doing it right, may just need to run HCG for longer since you were on TRT so long.

About the heart risks, I wouldn't worry too much it is about follow up monitoring and making sure everything is in range, please see the following article:

The public judgment of the overselling of testosterone therapy demands a response, stated the lead author, Martin Miner, MD, Clinical Associate Professor of Family Medicine and Urology, Warren Alpert Medical School of Brown University.

As researchers and clinicians with extensive experience with testosterone deficiency and its treatment, we do not find any credible evidence that testosterone prescriptions increase health risks. We find the assertion that testosterone is prescribed to men ;who are simply reluctant to accept the fact that they are getting older is without foundation, and we object to comments that question the reality of testosterone deficiency, regardless of whether it is called hypogonadism or, as in advertisements, low T; Dr Miner stated.

In addition, in our opinion, the idea that physicians prescribe testosterone due to pressure from drug companies is irresponsible and not supported by scientific evidence."

Over-the-top comments tend to scare both patients and physicians. The FDA announcement that it is investigating the reports of increased cardiovascular risks has only added to the impression that a major study has determined serious problems with testosterone therapy, he stated.

A case in point is a recent report1 published in PLoS ONE that investigated the risk of acute nonfatal myocardial infarction (MI) in a retrospective cohort study of a health-claims database. The authors compared the rates of MI within the first 90 days of an initial prescription for testosterone with the rates of MI for the 12 prior months in nearly 56 000 men. They also examined pre- and post-prescription incidence rates for nonfatal MI in another large cohort of more than 167 000 men for whom only phosphodiesterase-5 inhibitor (PDE5i) medications were prescribed, and after adjusting for potential confounders, compared these results to those of men who received testosterone prescriptions.

The authors concluded that the risk of MI following testosterone prescription was substantially increased (at least twofold) in older men and younger men with preexisting, diagnosed heart disease.

A close examination reveals that this study is too flawed to provide meaningful information on the cardiovascular risk of testosterone therapy, stated Dr Miner. First, the overall rate of nonfatal MI in the testosterone-treated group increased in all ages from 3.48 to 4.75 per 1,000 person-years. This amounts to just greater than one additional MI in 1,000 years of exposure to testosterone. It is misleading to characterize this increase as substantial based on relative risk when the absolute risk is so small and clinically meaningless.

Also, the study duration (90 days) was short, and a true control group would have consisted of men with untreated testosterone deficiency, not those who received PDE5i medications. The overall risk was low, and the number of events in subgroups was remarkably few, he noted.

More data from larger, longer term studies are needed to assess the potential effects of testosterone therapy on cardiovascular events in men. Based on the current evidence, he stated, "we can find no foundation for suggesting new restrictions on testosterone therapy in men with cardiac disease."

The researchers reported their results2 in the April 8, 2014 issue of Journal of Men's Health.

Evidence on Testosterone Therapy Does Not Support Cardiac Risk | Rheumatology Network

We have all seen the ads on TV and on our Google searches, a new study finds association of CVD with testosterone therapy. The sharks are out in full force and every lawyer in the country has an ad or commercial somewhere begging people to call them.

The saddest part about it all is so far it is hurting more people than doing good. Men who really need testosterone are being turned down everywhere now, and its those with low testosterone that have the highest risk for cardio vascular malfunction. We have now known for years that men with low testosterone have a high risk for CVD and diabetes. So why all the sudden have we switched directions entirely?

I dont like starting rumors and this could be far fetched, but is possible the makers of sexual enhancement pills are behind this? Who knows for sure, but read on to find out why I am not sold on any of it.

TOTAL MEN IN THE STUDY: 8,709
MEN ON TESTOSTERONE: 1,223
67 deaths, 23 MIs and 33 strokes for a total of 123 = 10%

MEN NOT ON TESTOSTERONE: 7,486
681 deaths, 420 MIs and 486 strokes for a total of 1,587 = 20%

Im not great a math but I am failing to see the correlation. It seems to me the testosterone actually helped.

Click the link below to read the full article:

https://increasemyt.com/blog/the-testosterone-lawsuits

 

[TRTnooby]

Idk Ive read that latest study at the VA and it has me a little worried. I kinda just wish I could do without it. Im going to a different doctor tomorrow and going to get my current protocol labs done since Im still on TRT. He treats a bunch of people at work and does not do breaks every 12 weeks. He does use clomid with test cyp or hcg depending on the person. Guess well see....

I'm not sure what study you are referring to, but there were serious flaws in 2 of the recent ones that linked TRT and Heart Risk.

Testosterone Therapy Does Not Cause Heart Attacks | Jen Landa, M.D.
How to Make Testosterone Therapy for Men Safe | Jen Landa, M.D.

Neither study addressed T levels before undergoing TRT, or even monitored T and E levels during the study, they really didn't do any monitoring at all as far as I can tell, not exactly scientifically rigorous. Bordering on malpractice in my opinion.

What those studies did prove is that if you just administer a random dose of Testosterone, and don't have regular blood work, you are going to have problems. Of course the media loves to sensationalize, and all anyone reads is the headline, so you get "Testosterone causes heart attacks" when nothing of the sort was proven.

 

[Alpin]

Studies like those (that have obvious flaws) usually have makers of proprietary drugs that are behind them.

 

[Nomoobs]

No I did not use HCG the whole time in fact for about 6 months I went without it. I feel better like that but aesthetic wise I like a little bit of HCG. I can't confirm what I was diagnosed as I have had idiot doctors since day one. I can go back and pull my original labs. I just wanted to try it and see how it went with a restart. I can honestly say my levels/protocol has not felt optimum in almost a year. I think a big part of it is this is not a magic pill and some of the problem is me not adhering to a good diet and exercise program until recently. The first 2 years it was amazing. The last has been meh and recently my job has consumed me and I am at fault for not being strict at eating right and making time for exercise. It seems that now I am fatter and the estrogen is tougher to manage.