I quit trt because I think my hypogonadism was steroid induced

[Grayyarg1]

Hello, I am new to the forum. So I will start with the info about myself. I am 34 yr male been cycling aas since 30 yr old. 24 months ago I finished up a long tren test mast cycle. after the cycle I just quit cold turkey(bad idea I know) fast forward 4 months I go into a bad depression so go to the doc. testosterone levels were290ng dl scale 300-1000. So she puts me on trt. 200 mg week no hcg and arimidex .5 eod which I rarely took because it drove my e2 to low. so after 18 months of ups and downs on the test I decide to try a restart. so iblsted hcg 1000 iu eod for 10000 iu total at the end I done testosterone test level was 599. so I start 10 mg nolva ed 12.5 clomid eod. 25 mg proviron ed 4 weeks of this and I go to doc and ask for testosterone, free testosterone, shbg, lh, fsh, and estradiol. well she only does 4 of them. and here are the levels and ranges.
I DO NOT HAVE BASELINE LEVELS STUPID I KNOW.
testosterone 907 (range 264-910 NG/DL)
Estrodial 27.1 (range 7.6-42.6 miu?ml)
lh 15.4 (range1.7- 8.6 miu/ml)
fsh 6.2 (range1.5-12.4 miu/ml)

My question is does any of that look good? Should I be concerned with high lh levels in regards to when I taper off serm and lh drops will test be low?
Is that test level good in relation to lh level?
What do I do now? Here is my plan I have discontinued clomid reduced nolva to 5mg ed one week next week reduce nolva to 5mg eod for 1 week. followed by a final week of nolva 5mg mon and thur then wait 2 weeks and redo blood work.
symptoms I'm feeling fair energy and mood wise now (was terrible first two weeks of serm) just have absolutely no libido Not much trouble getting erection when engaged but just loose interest and hard to maintain erection. been using Cialis as needed but still no desire. almost feel like a monk.

I know this is a lot to read and I was dumb in my choices. But now I'm trying to regain normal hormone levels so any help would be truly appreciated.
thanks

 

[Mycelium]

Mostly posting to follow along.

There may be a little ups and downs as your body is truly natural at first but from the labs it's producing!

A restart is better than TRT. I'm only 15 weeks in and have thought "man . . . I'll be doing this for the rest if my life :-(

Better a hole in the skin that low T tho.

 

[LateStart]

Mostly posting to follow along.

There may be a little ups and downs as your body is truly natural at first but from the labs it's producing!

A restart is better than TRT. I'm only 15 weeks in and have thought "man . . . I'll be doing this for the rest if my life :-(

Better a hole in the skin that low T tho.

I'm sure we all second guess our decision fairly often. I started with levels that were ok but wanted to see how much better if feel with higher levels......some days I think I'm just not sure. But this way I can cycle and not worry about recovery Immature I know .....but it's the path I chose.
I'm no doctor but your levels look great!!! Expect fsh and lh to drop when restart is done, and the test will take a hit too. In the past I used clomid alone to raise my level from 575 to 890. Expect a drop but hopefully still in "normal range". Good luck bro

 

[jp4355]

How long after you stopped the Clomid/Nolva/Proviron, did you go for your Bloodwork.

Sounds like you went as soon as the 4 Weeks of dosing was up, if so, then your Bloodwork #'s are Not Natty.

The Half-Life of Clomid is Extremely Long due to the fact that it's not 1 Drug.
Clomid is made up of 2 Different Drugs ~ Enclomiphene & Zuclomiphene.
In Studies the Half-Life of Zuclomiphene is anywhere between 14.2 Days to 33.4 Days.
So to be sure it's Out of your System, you need at least 6 Weeks.............................. JP

 

[Grayyarg1]

Mostly posting to follow along.

There may be a little ups and downs as your body is truly natural at first but from the labs it's producing!

A restart is better than TRT. I'm only 15 weeks in and have thought "man . . . I'll be doing this for the rest if my life :-(

Better a hole in the skin that low T tho.

Yes I definitely felt better most days while on trt. But the same thoughts kept looming in the back of my mind. I will be doing this for the rest of my life. Is it really neccisary for me. Or can I produce sufficient levels on my own. That is why I decided to give it a try and see. But you are right a whole in the skin is way better than low t. for sure.

 

[Grayyarg1]

How long after you stopped the Clomid/Nolva/Proviron, did you go for your Bloodwork.

Sounds like you went as soon as the 4 Weeks of dosing was up, if so, then your Bloodwork #'s are Not Natty.

The Half-Life of Clomid is Extremely Long due to the fact that it's not 1 Drug.
Clomid is made up of 2 Different Drugs ~ Enclomiphene & Zuclomiphene.
In Studies the Half-Life of Zuclomiphene is anywhere between 14.2 Days to 33.4 Days.
So to be sure it's Out of your System, you need at least 6 Weeks.............................. JP

Yes I done labs right at the end of the four weeks. I know these are not what my levels will be when meds are cleared. I just wondered if anyone could shed some light on this as to what should I do next.. I have just began my taper and it will end in two weeks. My goal here is to see if I can get back to homeostasis and produce sufficient levels naturally. If I cant then ill try to find a trt program that works best for me. I just couldn't continue the injections any longer with the nagging thoughts. ( Is this necessary for me? )

 

[Grayyarg1]

Just to add the only thing that concerned me so far about the labs is the high lh. If its taking 15 lh to have a 907 testosterone level. then what will happen when lh drops down to normal? I guess its all a guessing game and I will just have to wait it out and see?

And if these levels are looking good, then why no libido? Could it be from the serms?

 

[scorob777]

From what I can see it looks like a restart is a good idea for you. The drugs gave you high LH, FSH, and test levels, which are all good signs.

Unfortunately I think a couple things are a bit off. HCG you only ran 1,000 IU EOD for total of 10,000 IU. Depending on the state of your balls you might need to run it for more & longer. But... maybe not. You test result of 907 might indicate your nuts are working fine, so don't need more HCG.

Then there is proviron during PCT. This is not a good idea, should not be in there. May hamper things and will confuse any results you get.

There there are the doses of nolva and clomid, they are quite low compared to normal power PCT type doses.

So, seems like right now time will tell. You might try taking absolutely nothing and getting a series of female panel blood tests at something like 3, 6, and 9 weeks. Doing that will show what your body is doing for LH and FSH levels without any drugs present which is a major clue about hypothalamus and pituitary function, and also how much test you are producing at whatever those levels are, which is another major clue about testes function.

 

[Grayyarg1]

From what I can see it looks like a restart is a good idea for you. The drugs gave you high LH, FSH, and test levels, which are all good signs.

Unfortunately I think a couple things are a bit off. HCG you only ran 1,000 IU EOD for total of 10,000 IU. Depending on the state of your balls you might need to run it for more & longer. But... maybe not. You test result of 907 might indicate your nuts are working fine, so don't need more HCG.

Then there is proviron during PCT. This is not a good idea, should not be in there. May hamper things and will confuse any results you get.

There there are the doses of nolva and clomid, they are quite low compared to normal power PCT type doses.

So, seems like right now time will tell. You might try taking absolutely nothing and getting a series of female panel blood tests at something like 3, 6, and 9 weeks. Doing that will show what your body is doing for LH and FSH levels without any drugs present which is a major clue about hypothalamus and pituitary function, and also how much test you are producing at whatever those levels are, which is another major clue about testes function.

Thanks for the response. I couldn't take any more serms than that ed without visual side effects so I dropped it down. I only added the proviron because I was crashed hard and couldn't hardly function to work. The proviron helped with that. But I will drop the proviron now and continue my taper of the serms over the next week. Then I will get the female panels at 3, 6 , and 9 weeks after that.

 

[scorob777]

Thanks for the response. I couldn't take any more serms than that ed without visual side effects so I dropped it down. I only added the proviron because I was crashed hard and couldn't hardly function to work. The proviron helped with that. But I will drop the proviron now and continue my taper of the serms over the next week. Then I will get the female panels at 3, 6 , and 9 weeks after that.

Sounds good.

During the test/tren/mast run were you using an AI?

 

[Grayyarg1]

Sounds good.

During the test/tren/mast run were you using an AI?

No I didn't need one. I don't aromatize to heavily and the mast actually lowers mine. I found that out the hard way when I added 500 mg per mast e to my 200 mg trt dose. it crashed my estro. and low estro to me was a hellish condition mentally, libido wise, and I hurt in places I have never hurt. I didn't use caber either and I think that is one reason I was shut down so hard after. I didn't check prolactin until 4 months later and it was still 21 I forget the measurement but scale was something like 3-15. MY last cycle before quiting this trt was NPP added. And this time I did use caber .25 mg twice a week.

 

[casanovaaa]

so you didnt need an ai? since you dont aromatize heavily? you always need an ai bro.
when are you doing bloods next?

 

[casanovaaa]

ai is to prevent not treat aas sides.

 

[Grayyarg1]

ai is to prevent not treat aas sides.

So tell me what an ai does? Limits conversion of testosterone to estrogen? So if there is not much aromatizing, then why do you say I need an ai? Maybe there's something I am not seeing here. And I probably phrased that wrong. I meant there wasn't enough aromatizing because I kept the test cyp dose at trt level. And only added tren and mast. When I tried the anastrozole at .25 mg on injection days it drove my estrodial into single digits. And I will tell you that the sides of low estro are just as bad as high estro.

 

[Grayyarg1]

I am going to go ahead and stop serms and proviron today. Then in 3 weeks I will get more bloods. That is unless I feel like I'm crashing before then. If so I will get then sooner. Unless some one with more knowledge thinks there is a better rout to go about this. There are a lot of logs on various forums where people attempt restarts. The vast majority of them never finish the log or post again leaving everyone hanging. So I will try and update this all the way through. Then I see a lot of people who do well with hcg followed by serms, while still on the meds. Then they return to there low t readings a few weeks after discontinuing the serms. So I am hoping and remain optimistic that wont be the case here.

 

[Mycelium]

Yeah don't be another person to leave a log unfinished. Your posts add to the collective knowledge and experience of the board as a whole.

 

[casanovaaa]

here is a good read on AI's great thread https://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroids-bodybuilding-articles/591422-ai-s.html

 

[oldmusclemike]

so you didnt need an ai? since you dont aromatize heavily? you always need an ai bro.
when are you doing bloods next?

ai is to prevent not treat aas sides.

This ^^^ good , right on point

No I didn't need one. I don't aromatize to heavily and the mast actually lowers mine. I found that out the hard way when I added 500 mg per mast e to my 200 mg trt dose. it crashed my estro. and low estro to me was a hellish condition mentally, libido wise, and I hurt in places I have never hurt. I didn't use caber either and I think that is one reason I was shut down so hard after. I didn't check prolactin until 4 months later and it was still 21 I forget the measurement but scale was something like 3-15. MY last cycle before quiting this trt was NPP added. And this time I did use caber .25 mg twice a week.

Above is correct. You need bloods to make sure you do not need at all and AI. Maybe you are not aware of all the unwanted sides of imbalanced E2. There are many and not just Gyno. Let me tell you an AI at a low dose will not hold your gains back just in case you thought that ?

I will list some unwanted sides for you but I suggest you read more.
Low Estrogen Side Effects:
- Osteoporosis (weakened bones) ; (long-term low levels)
- Poor sex drive
- Fatigue
- Lethargy
- Skin quality diminishes
- Depression
- Poor sense of wellbeing & poor quality of life

High Estrogen Side Effects:
- Gynecomastia
- Anxiety & panic attacks
- Depression
- Erectile dysfunction
- Water retention
- High blood pressure
- Loss of balance/instability/dizziness
- Respiratory related concerns
- Irritability
- Low libido
- Insomnia
- Prostate related issues
- Crying and being emotional all the time

You don't aromatize heavy , well I never heard that before. Listen you want to do / prevent Aromatizing as much as you can. Some of the sides are not readily apparent. I'm not saying you must need it because your bloods might say you are ok without. But until that is done and unless you have been this rout with B W before and you know by that you are safe... then you need a low dose for PREVENTION,. Key word prevention. YOU do not want to have to put a fire out after it starts. Cycling without an AI is like not having your safety rope tied off. Too late if you start free falling. You already have experienced the need of Caber.

Get the BW and know for sure

 

[Grayyarg1]

This ^^^ good , right on point



Above is correct. You need bloods to make sure you do not need at all and AI. Maybe you are not aware of all the unwanted sides of imbalanced E2. There are many and not just Gyno. Let me tell you an AI at a low dose will not hold your gains back just in case you thought that ?

I will list some unwanted sides for you but I suggest you read more.
Low Estrogen Side Effects:
- Osteoporosis (weakened bones) ; (long-term low levels)
- Poor sex drive
- Fatigue
- Lethargy
- Skin quality diminishes
- Depression
- Poor sense of wellbeing & poor quality of life

High Estrogen Side Effects:
- Gynecomastia
- Anxiety & panic attacks
- Depression
- Erectile dysfunction
- Water retention
- High blood pressure
- Loss of balance/instability/dizziness
- Respiratory related concerns
- Irritability
- Low libido
- Insomnia
- Prostate related issues
- Crying and being emotional all the time

You don't aromatize heavy , well I never heard that before. Listen you want to do / prevent Aromatizing as much as you can. Some of the sides are not readily apparent. I'm not saying you must need it because your bloods might say you are ok without. But until that is done and unless you have been this rout with B W before and you know by that you are safe... then you need a low dose for PREVENTION,. Key word prevention. YOU do not want to have to put a fire out after it starts. Cycling without an AI is like not having your safety rope tied off. Too late if you start free falling. You already have experienced the need of Caber.

Get the BW and know for sure

Yes I understand all of this and I have experienced high e2 with 600 mg a week test and 60 dbol ed. I understand all the problems that go with high e2. I just meant at a dose of 100 mg test cyp every 3.5 days I do not need an Ai. I did my injections sub q maybe that helped idk. But this was confirmed with bloods as doc made me do regular bloods. MY test at that dose stayed steady around 1100 and my e2 32. which did not cause any e2 related sides. When I took .25 mg along with each injection to try to be around the recommended 20 e2 level my e2 went down to 9. And to me low e2 was hellish. I am not saying high e2 is not dangerous because it can be. But as far as perceived side effects g, low was far worse for me personally. I tried to get doc to prescribe aromasin so I could try it but she would not do it. When I cycled I kept my test dose the same. just added either npp ant 450 per week or 400 tren 400 mast.

And by the way she was hesitant to let me try the anastrozole when I asked. because she said based on bloods I didn't need an ai. I convinced her to let me try because of all the forum threads I have read. Apparently these meds don't effect everyone equally.

 

[Grayyarg1]

I know I said I wasnt gonna leave this thread hanging and Im not. Sorry for the delay I didn go all the way through with it I ran a 6 week test p tren a cycle. Then restarted the above protocol only difference is I done 500 iu hcg through the cycle.

After the cycle I waited 2 weeks to start serms. During that 2 weeks shot 1000 iu hcg eod. Then started 25 mg clomid 10 mg nolva 25 mg proviron only ran it for 3 weeks couldn stand the mood sides of the serms. I waited 5 weeks after discontinuing serms and had labs.
Total t 598NG/dL range 264-916
Free t 18.24 NG/DL. Range 5.00-21.00
%Free testosterone3.05. Range 1.50-4.20

I feel pretty good but not 100%. Labido is like 60%. Wood is like 80 percent.
I didn check any other hormones bcause i payed out of pocket for these $93 for just total and free t.

I guess it probably takes a while for labido to feel normal? Or maybe never feel normal again after experiencing isane labido on cycles?