If you start taking steroids way before your natural limit you will NOT lose gains!

[Gainknowledge]

Before anyone bashes me for 1 post count I come from another forum that is honest compared to this one. I have read so many damn times the same old questions and this forum and people straight up lie. (I have 14 consecutive years of steroid use under my belt.

If you take steroids after 3 months of working out with a KNOWLEDGEABLE FRIEND who is guiding you on diet and form and cycle use/pct then you are literally just going to be skipping 2-3 years of training for a few months of hard ass work while on gear. And once you reach or get close to your genetic potential and want to come off of gear for good you will f*cking keep the gains!

Yes you have an increased risk of injury obviously you are stupid if you think differently. If you are under 22-23 years of age DO NOT TOUCH THE SH*T! I repeat do not touch steroids at a young age this is stupid as hell.

People need to stop lying and saying you need to reach your genetic potential before using gear. This is complete BS if you are already knowledgeable or have a friend that is willing to guide you... if not DON'T TOUCH GEAR.

Remember that you have an increased risk of injury because of gaining strength at such a quick rate.

But if you're taking gear after 3 months of working out and decide to put on slabs of muscle and strength that first cycle then decide to come off and do PROPER PCT you're muscles are not just going to fu*king vanish and you can continue to grow naturally after!!(granted you are not over your genetic potential and off of one cycle you won't be)

(I CAN NOT STRESS ENOUGH HOW IMPORTANT PROPER PCT IS!) Don't f*ck up your body!

People on forums need to stop lying and being butthurt because we decided to train for years before taking steroids.

ONCE AGAIN DO NOT TOUCH THE STUFF UNLESS YOU HAVE COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE OF DIET TRAINING AND CYCLE USE OR HAVE A KNOWLEDGEABLE FRIEND THAT HAS A LOT OF TIME TO HELP YOU.

HAVE A GOOD DAY! It's 2015

 

[SJC]

Shut the Fuck up!!

 

[Gainknowledge]

Shut the Fuck up!!

No you're probably one of those exact idiots I was talking about. You're full of sh*t and you KNOW this is the truth.

 

[cybrsage]

If you take steroids after 3 months of working out with a KNOWLEDGEABLE FRIEND who is guiding you on diet and form and cycle use/pct then you are literally just going to be skipping 2-3 years of training for a few months of hard ass work while on gear. And once you reach or get close to your genetic potential and want to come off of gear for good you will f*cking keep the gains!

You were doing so poorly until you got to these sentences, then you dove hard into pure stupidity. Seriously, steroids are not magical elixirs that will make a few months of hard work equal to 2 - 3 years of training natty. That is just complete and utter bullcrap. Even had you not posted such hyperbole, your communication style is such that you will never sway the mind of anyone who is not currently under the influence of some mind altering drug that makes them change their views to whatever the views are of the last person who spoke.


*************************************************


I will give you some pro tips on how what you did wrong in your attempt to convince others your information is correct. The first thing you did was call us liars. You will never convince someone your information is correct when you start the conversation by insulting them. It simply is not going to happen. You have created a hostile environment and caused hatred, and neither one of those is conducive to you reaching your goal of convincing others your information is correct.

The next pro tip is to skip hyperbole when you are trying to make a point about how others are wrong. This one should be obvious, hyperbole is saying something that not true - it is a blown up version of the truth. Examples would be saying you will feel younger than you have ever felt (impossible, you will never feel as young as you did when you were 5 years old), or saying you can get 2-3 years worth of training in only a few months if you use steroids. (just as impossible). While hyperbole does have its place (I use it extensively and love it), it has no place in a conversation where you are calling everyone else a liar. A lie is saying things you know not to be true but acting like these things are true. Hyperbole is lying...so you are doing the same thing you just accused everyone else of doing.

The final pro tip is to not take the words "should" and "recommended" and turn them into "need to". They first two words do not mean the same as the last phrase. It is recommended to go as far as you can natty and THEN add steroids because you will get more bang for your buck. This is not a sprint, it is a marathon. You have the rest of your life, no need to purposefully reduce the gains that can be had simply because of impatience. If a normal American eats cleanly and properly and works out honestly, he WILL shed fat and gain muscle in vast quantities WITHOUT the use of AAS. Why add AAS when it is not needed in this case? Get the free gains now and then, later, then the gains are harder to get, add the AAS and boom, vast quantities again. You get the vast quantities TWICE instead of once.

TL;DR
Starting a conversation by insulting people is one of the worst things you can do if you ever want to convince others that the information you posses is more correct or of greater value than their information. You fail before you start.

 

[Gainknowledge]

You were doing so poorly until you got to these sentences, then you dove hard into pure stupidity. Seriously, steroids are not magical elixirs that will make a few months of hard work equal to 2 - 3 years of training natty. That is just complete and utter bullcrap. Even had you not posted such hyperbole, your communication style is such that you will never sway the mind of anyone who is not currently under the influence of some mind altering drug that makes them change their views to whatever the views are of the last person who spoke.


*************************************************


I will give you some pro tips on how what you did wrong in your attempt to convince others your information is correct. The first thing you did was call us liars. You will never convince someone your information is correct when you start the conversation by insulting them. It simply is not going to happen. You have created a hostile environment and caused hatred, and neither one of those is conducive to you reaching your goal of convincing others your information is correct.

The next pro tip is to skip hyperbole when you are trying to make a point about how others are wrong. This one should be obvious, hyperbole is saying something that not true - it is a blown up version of the truth. Examples would be saying you will feel younger than you have ever felt (impossible, you will never feel as young as you did when you were 5 years old), or saying you can get 2-3 years worth of training in only a few months if you use steroids. (just as impossible). While hyperbole does have its place (I use it extensively and love it), it has no place in a conversation where you are calling everyone else a liar. A lie is saying things you know not to be true but acting like these things are true. Hyperbole is lying...so you are doing the same thing you just accused everyone else of doing.

The final pro tip is to not take the words "should" and "recommended" and turn them into "need to". They first two words do not mean the same as the last phrase. It is recommended to go as far as you can natty and THEN add steroids because you will get more bang for your buck. This is not a sprint, it is a marathon. You have the rest of your life, no need to purposefully reduce the gains that can be had simply because of impatience. If a normal American eats cleanly and properly and works out honestly, he WILL shed fat and gain muscle in vast quantities WITHOUT the use of AAS. Why add AAS when it is not needed in this case? Get the free gains now and then, later, then the gains are harder to get, add the AAS and boom, vast quantities again. You get the vast quantities TWICE instead of once.

TL;DR
Starting a conversation by insulting people is one of the worst things you can do if you ever want to convince others that the information you posses is more correct or of greater value than their information. You fail before you start.

You're not getting my point. I'm saying if a natural person wants to reach their natural limit A LOT FASTER then steroids can and WILL do that and if they decide to stop cycling right after and hover and maintain around their natural limit they CAN do this. This topic is not for people trying to go over the natural limit. But people saying it is not a shortcut IS lying. It IS a shortcut! And it DOES work. The gains you made from steroids will not just magically dispensary as long as you are eating proper and did a properly executed PCT.

 

[cybrsage]

They will certainly help you get to your goals faster, provided the diet and exercise are on point, that is true. You WILL lose some of your gains - there is no way around it. Also, a proper PCT is no guarantee of a successful restart. Everyone needs to know they might end up on TRT for life after every cycle. It is a risk that is not work taking when it is not actually needed.

 

[Gainknowledge]

They will certainly help you get to your goals faster, provided the diet and exercise are on point, that is true. You WILL lose some of your gains - there is no way around it. Also, a proper PCT is no guarantee of a successful restart. Everyone needs to know they might end up on TRT for life after every cycle. It is a risk that is not work taking when it is not actually needed.

But that chance is very low with a proper PCT.

 

[cybrsage]

But that chance is very low with a proper PCT.

That is true. I am already on TRT, so I never to PCT...so I have very precious little knowledge about it.

 

[Gainknowledge]

That is true. I am already on TRT, so I never to PCT...so I have very precious little knowledge about it.

After how many cycles and at what dosages/lengths of time? One to two PROPER normal dose cycles and proper PCT to reach close to genetic cap or at least a huge boost towards it have VERY low chances...

 

[cybrsage]

After how many cycles and at what dosages/lengths of time? One to two PROPER normal dose cycles and proper PCT to reach close to genetic cap or at least a huge boost towards it have VERY low chances...

Oh, no, sorry for the confusion. It happened to me naturally, all by itself. Or rather, it was probably helped by decades of alcohol abuse. I only entered this body building lifestyle after being diagnosed with TRT.

 

[Gainknowledge]

Oh, no, sorry for the confusion. It happened to me naturally, all by itself. Or rather, it was probably helped by decades of alcohol abuse. I only entered this body building lifestyle after being diagnosed with TRT.

Oh I thought you were being sarcastic.

I'm just tired of people saying this isn't a viable option if you are INFORMED and have someone MORE informed to help you because you obviously are not informed enough 3 months into starting lifting. But if you ARE then using 1-2 cycles to reach genetic limits is FINE..

It is a shortcut but it WORKS. But you have to have the knowledge of bodybuilding in general this is why so many people say it's stupid to start steroids 3 months in BUT IF YOU DO have a knowledgeable friend then this DOES work.

 

[.Vision.]

Anyone who knows me and my reputation, knows I will not call out a poster or disrespect ,everyone has a right to post info on what they believe and how they feel passionate about,and maybe even have a healthy dialog..However your post is misleading and not accurate..

The importance of waiting/putting in time and reaching natural limitations is stressed and implemented for many reasons.. (aside from hormones/endo)

It's virtually impossible to reach your genetic limitations in your early-mid 20's (there's so much more to do and dietary is one,let alone the endo) I don't care what anyone advocates (the vast majority of trainers/athletes/BB's/fighters) don't prime till their early 30's (some late 20's)..There is reasons for this.. Have you ever heard of "Pop strength"? Muscle maturity? This falls into play with natural genetic limitations as well..

The older a male gets and with the new added muscles through training/diet comes "Strength", as this is proportional to the cross sectional area of all muscles (existing/new),in which this strength is provided through neuromuscular connection,CNS ext..When males reach LATE 20's early 30's there's more efficient neuromuscular connections,in which it will slow down but not decrease, and will remain permanent (IT'S YOURS FOR THE KEEPING, YOU EARNED IT, with consistent training)

Secondly, training to genetic limits includes tendons,muscle fibers,bones all maturing within network of acquired strength/mass, using gear prematurely can yield long term or permanent damage,minimizing potential..

The metabolism is always changing, shifting from what it was prior as you grow,one needs to TRULY know the fuck about his/her body down to the science, and how they react, concerning sensitives from carbs,sodium, and even just the mere addition of adding/subtracting 500cals to a already structured diet,these adjustments can make a world of a difference in ones appearance,especially in ones training, and over all health/results.
This is 85% of the game right here!

If you can't gain,lose,or maintain new mass,or make dramatic changes with your physique from diet alone,then don't even look at gear!

Gear is no jokes,most recreational users who look to just add size, have no concept about bloods, how to read bloods, or know what the hell it is, let alone how to eat to grow/lose.. People can stress about legendary BB's who started young, well guess what? they made the conscience decision to make a life long career out of it!

Gear is not a joke,the shit is serious, and you can bang yourself up with blinding speeds and inherit a slew of unwanted health issues!

Gear use is a conscience decision and a serious commitment, and one should acknowledge and except anything that comes along with, whether its incidental or consequential,there's ramifications with ignorance, as there's a shit ton of responsibility.. Education is #1 and it doesn't start with KNOWING YOUR COMPOUNDS, IT BEGINS WITH KNOWING YOUR BODY!

 

[.Vision.]

and per your notion "have a knowledgeable friend".. This is not a one size fits all lifestyle, what may work for him, may not be suited for the next... Eating/growing, maintaining, losing, is all part of a PERSONAL experience, a chemistry/science experiment.. This is one HUGE science experiment, you are you own experiment, not someone else!

Its good to have a mentor,instructions, but it comes down to the individualize they must know and recognize, whats myth,theory,bro-science, verse hard facts..Don't put everything into the trust of an other! Research,research, research... It never ends!

 

[Gainknowledge]

"Secondly, training to genetic limits includes tendons,muscle fibers,bones all maturing within network of acquired strength/mass, using gear prematurely can yield long term or permanent damage,minimizing potential.."

This right here I don't understand. How is steroid use earlier than later going to affect your long term potential. Using 1 or 2 cycles to get close to the genetic limit and getting off of the cycles after and staying natural from then on the cycles would not have any effect on your natural genetic limit and you should still be able to reach it granted you got a massive boost from those 1-2 cycles.

 

[jozifp103]

If you cycle early on without any lifting experience....yes you will make gains and reach your natural limit much quicker. Will you keep the gains? Doubtful. The faster you make gains the faster you lose them.....slow steady gains are the most sustainable because your body has had time to adapt to them and "accept" the new muscle if you will. If you put on 30lbs of muscle in 3 months by blasting heavy cycles as a newb....your body is not going to accept all that new muscle so well because it hasn't had time to adapt to it. Broscience? Ya a little bit...but it's what happens.

NOT TO MENTION, a newb is going to cheat his way to his goals, not ever learning how to properly train or diet. His gains will be 90% drug induced. Then he comes off the drugs and still sucks at training and nutrition....you bet your ass he's gonna lose gains.

 

[maurij1]

If you train to your genetic limit naturally then everything will mature at the same rate. Aas strengthens and builds the muscles, not the tendons, bones or your cns. If you build the muscles to fast your tendons don't have the chance to get used to the new strength and mass, which can cause damage later on down the line. When you hit your late 20's early 30's your muscle fibers and tendons have had time to mature and become more dense making it easier for them to with stand the extra weight and stress that comes with aas. This is the way it was explained to me many years ago (very basic so I could understand it)!

In amateur boxing we rarely let an 18 year old compete against a 30 year old even if they're the same weight. Reason is because there's a big difference in what we call man strength and boy strength. Doesn't matter if the kid is just as strong in the weight room because that kind of muscle doesn't transfer over to boxing. Sure the kid may be strong but which is what aas will give you but he won't have the tendon strength and muscle fibers to deliver the punches with the same kind of snap and power. This is a crude example because it's not bodybuilding or powerlifting but the basics are still the same when it comes to maturing naturally.

 

[bigben66]

To be quite honest, the thing that would worry me more than anything would be my ability to recover.

You mention reaching 'genetic limit' - how will you ever find out what your 'genetic limit' is if you introduce synthetic compounds at supraphysiological dosages early on?

I trained clean until the age of 35. I'd say I reached my peak around 33, both strength and size wise.... at that point I had to make a decision.
Do I continue to train balls to the wall naturally, and see people on gear who eat slack diets and don't train with half the intensity I did, surpass me?

In the end I knew I had to get involved... I'd only be treading water and possibly going backwards with age.

When I look back, I'm proud that I did what I did, staying clean so long. I learned my craft, I mastered techniques and training methods over nearly 20yrs and in all honesty, I looked a damn sight better than all the 'seasonal puffer fish' that got big in the summer and then went into hiding every winter.

When I did start taking modest cycles - I exploded - it was the kick my body needed, and hiding the fact I had taken some 'help' was NOT easy. I attributed it to a better diet and new training methods, when in all honesty, they had been perfect for ages.

The downside to starting late at 35 was this. My T levels were already on a slippery slope, I must have been low in the range.
After a couple of cycles my ability to recover just wasn't there, queue a horrific 18 months of feeling like hell on earth, low libido, a nearly failed marriage due to the inability to please my wife. Joint pain, lethargy, daydreaming and brain fog - I was shot to pieces and rued the day I'd started taking gear.

Finally I found an endo that could help me, but even that took over a year to settle on a protocol that I could function like a normal male on.
I can't thank some of the vets on this site enough for helping me through those hideously low days. I'm forever indebted.

So when you come on here, calling the shots with one single post, shouting the odds and labeling everyone liars.
Maybe you should show some respect and realize that everyone of us is on a journey - some a lot LOT further along theirs than you are - and hence a LOT wiser!

These guys on here have people's health and safety as a priority, and help more people than you have probably met.

So in reference to your bold claims.... Yes, of course AAS will help you get big quick - that is a no-brainer!

But ask yourself this.... at what cost?

My 02cents...

BigBen

 

[tx045]

Who even gives a fuck. Just come in spouting off some fucking retarded topic off the top of your head that doesn't even make sense. Just some vague points with way too many variables involved

 

[maurij1]

Gotta say I'm with you big Ben on being proud of what I accomplished naturally. I trained natural for 30 years and started aas at 43. I don't look anywhere near as good as you...but I'm still damn proud of what I accomplished!

 

[SJC]

I give this troll 2 stars. Only because he came back 6 times.