Is a peak testosterone level of 1450 getting dangerous?

So just because you had terrible doctors it means that Total Testosterone is worthless? Can you help me understand that logic?

By the way, I know we give doctors a lot of grief on this forum, but many of them are very good and want to help their patients.

See if you can understand this : - Free Testosterone And Total Testosterone What Is The Difference? and this Low Testosterone Therapy Risks and Benefits

Bound testosterone dioesnt affect your libido, your ED or your performance in the Gym, yet it's ONLY total testosterone which is measured in a "standard" blood test.

You don't have to believe this, I'm sure that you can find a lot of 'Medical Studies" to refute this. Guess which ones I would rather believe in.
 
See if you can understand this : - Free Testosterone And Total Testosterone What Is The Difference? and this Low Testosterone Therapy Risks and Benefits

Bound testosterone dioesnt affect your libido, your ED or your performance in the Gym, yet it's ONLY total testosterone which is measured in a "standard" blood test.

You don't have to believe this, I'm sure that you can find a lot of 'Medical Studies" to refute this. Guess which ones I would rather believe in.

"Standard" Blood tests don't check any form of testosterone. Most guys have never had their testosterone chrecked. But in fairness, standard blood tests don't check many things that may be of interest to certain people.

Where do you think your Free T comes from? It comes from your Total T. If you don't have decent Total T numbers it is highly unlikely that you will have decent Free T numbers. And vice-versa: if you have really good Total T numbers it is likely that you will have really good Free T numbers.

And just so you know, your precious Free T blood work result is usually a calculated estimate based on several assumptions. It is very expensive to actually test it usi g a direct method. So how much confidence do you want to put into your medical practitioner's formula used to estimate this? We all know how you feel about people in the medical profession!
 
The role of total vs. free testosterone is far from cut and dried.

Simple common sense argues against the concept that the body would produce a hormone just to have over 90% of it rendered useless by being bound to another protein.

What happens at various receptor sites involving testosterone bound to SHBG does not appear to be well understood even in the endocrinology literature.

I think that the theory that SHBG binding is there to protect testosterone from excretion is compelling. SHBG acts as a buffering agent and quite possibly testosterone bound to SHBG is not only not "useless" but necessary.

@Baldur: you have a right to your opinions, but you are being unnecessarily confrontational and condescending to some of the most knowledgeable members of this forum.
 
The role of total vs. free testosterone is far from cut and dried.

Simple common sense argues against the concept that the body would produce a hormone just to have over 90% of it rendered useless by being bound to another protein.

What happens at various receptor sites involving testosterone bound to SHBG does not appear to be well understood even in the endocrinology literature.

I think that the theory that SHBG binding is there to protect testosterone from excretion is compelling. SHBG acts as a buffering agent and quite possibly testosterone bound to SHBG is not only not "useless" but necessary.

@Baldur: you have a right to your opinions, but you are being unnecessarily confrontational and condescending to some of the most knowledgeable members of this forum.

It would appear from some of the comments that I have NO right to any opinion on this forum. It makes one lose heart trying to give advice to others. A lot of you have fixed opinions and glorify medical and pharma professions. The old saying "There are none so blind as they who do not wish to see" spring to mind.

Free Testosterone And Total Testosterone What Is The Difference?
 
See if you can understand this : - Free Testosterone And Total Testosterone What Is The Difference? and this Low Testosterone Therapy Risks and Benefits

Bound testosterone dioesnt affect your libido, your ED or your performance in the Gym, yet it's ONLY total testosterone which is measured in a "standard" blood test.

You don't have to believe this, I'm sure that you can find a lot of 'Medical Studies" to refute this. Guess which ones I would rather believe in.

Except that as an initial investigation total testosterone is adequate. As TT increases, FT will increase UNLESS there's an issue further down the chain. Yes, free testosterone is what is biologically active, but without having a pool of adequate testosterone to draw from, there won't be any free testosterone.

That's why TT is sufficient to begin with unless there are still symptoms present during therapy. In fact, exogenous testosterone and aromatase inhibitors lower SHBG, driving free test up even higher.

Not sure why you choose to be so argumentative as we all agree, just from different angles of the topic. In fact, while we know estradiol is the hormone to watch for, there are conditions in which estrone and estriol can bring problems to the table too. As it's fairly rare, we don't bother looking into it - which is very similar to FT vs TT.
 
Interesting discussion here. But I'm still curious if anyone has any further thoughts on the TT level peaking at 1450+? BTW I upped my dose yesterday to a 180 mg Test Cyp per week and see how I feel
 
Interesting discussion here. But I'm still curious if anyone has any further thoughts on the TT level peaking at 1450+? BTW I upped my dose yesterday to a 180 mg Test Cyp per week and see how I feel

Get a trough reading, that's what truly matters imo.
 
It would appear from some of the comments that I have NO right to any opinion on this forum. It makes one lose heart trying to give advice to others. A lot of you have fixed opinions and glorify medical and pharma professions. The old saying "There are none so blind as they who do not wish to see" spring to mind.

Free Testosterone And Total Testosterone What Is The Difference?

Your right to your opinion is uncontested. The rest of your post highlights the problem: you are approaching this discussion with the supposition that you know better and the rest of us need to be educated.
 
Your right to your opinion is uncontested. The rest of your post highlights the problem: you are approaching this discussion with the supposition that you know better and the rest of us need to be educated.
It isn't that I think I know better, that's not true. I have however done extensive research, not only anecdotal but also from the VERY few people in the medical profession, who have dared to go outside the lines that have been drawn up by the medical hierarchy.

I have a very good friend in a different country, that was almost struck off, because he disagreed with the norms of the hierarchy.

If you look at the results from lab work on blood, you will see the so-called "normal" levels of total testosterone. On mine, it gives the following : -

Age 7 - 19 2.25 - 27 nmol/L (labs use different units to confuse and confound)
Age 29 - 49 8.64 - 29 nmol/L
Age >=50. 8.68 - 25.7 nmol/L

Translated into different units : -
Age 7 - 19 65 - 779 ng/do
Age 29 - 49 249 - 836 ng/dl
Age >=50. 250 - 741 ng/dl

Basically, this gives so much leeway that 'doctors' can safely ignore it. My friend took a sort of mean of the upper and lower 29 - 49 values and arrived at a figure of around 650 ng/dl. If patients came to him showing ANY of the signs of low testosterone, he would start them on so-called 'natural' testosterone boosters, (a really bad idea to prescribe herbal stuff and not expensive meds), and exercise. He didn't treat the symptoms. If the symptoms got worse, I guess he would do something about it, but if not, after 3 months he would do more blood work and if the T was still as low, he would start them on a 2 month course of T injections. He told me that in 90% of cases, this would solve the problem.

He later found out that some patients with relatively high t values, still showed low T symptoms and then he would start to look at Free T. He was the person who actually persuaded me to DEMAND a free T result. His findings were that In some people, the total t could be well within the limits, but the Free T was exceptionally low. Once again, treating the low Free T with T injections, solved the problem.

I agree, as no doubt would he, had he not been killed in a car accident earlier this year, that if Total T is low, it's more than likely that Free T will also be low. What I do disagree with however, is that a high Total T does not necessarily mean a high Free T.

According to my quack here, my Total T of 484 was way above normal for a man of 72. But my Free T WHEN I finally got it checked was almost ZERO. Ergo, my statement that taken on its own, Total T is meaningless, because it doesn't mean that even if it's very high, that it isn't all bound up to globulin and albumin.

Without adequate FREE T a patient will exhibit all the symptoms of low T (as I did), the quack will ignore this and prescribe medication to treat the SYMPTOMS, missing the cause completely (which is what they have been carefully trained to do).
 
I'm not being argumentative. If you have Low Total T, the chances are that you will have low Free T also. The med range is so big that you doc can say it's OK even if it's not. What I am trying to get across is that even if you have a relatively high Total T, it does NOT follow that you have a high Free T as well.

A doctor friend of mine, in another country, pointed this out to me when I first came onto this forum asking for advice. The advice I got from here was great, it helped enormously, but I had a high Total T, my sex life was gone, I was getting fatter and fatter, I was pushing weights and getting weaker, lethargic, aching and I felt like shit. My friend (who was almost ran struck off for not toeing the medical professions line), told me to get a Free T and when I did (after much trouble). It was almost ZERO. Even the moronic endo they sent me to said that I should be on TRT but refused to prescribe "because of my age and my very high Free T"

I started treating myself heeding the advice from here about AI, dosage etc and now I'm doing GREAT. Stop trying to tell me that I'm argumentative, because I speak not only from my own practical experience, but also from the experience of a doctor who refused to kow-tow to the hierarchy. He found the same problem in many of his patients over the years.

This forum helped me a lot, I'm trying to give a bit of my own experience that just MIGHT help others. I can't see what is argumentative about stating a incontrovertible fact, namely that you can still have Low T symptoms, even if your Total T is high, because it isn't true that a high Total T automatically gives a high Free T. Without Free T, you sex life is DEAD, you get fatter and weaker and generally feel like shit. I KNOW. I've been there, done it and worn the T-Shirt. I am not a liar, I'm not professing to know it all, I'm not being condescending, I'm stating a FACT from personal and other people's (yes anecdotal as well as medical) experience.

If you object to me offering advice to others based on my own experience and that of a (rogue) doctor, just say so and I'll shut up, because obviously certain people here object to hearing the experience of others if it doesn't suit their own way of thinking.

Oh yes, I think this is what is now called Democracy. Democracy means you can say what you like - as long as we (your rulers) agree with you!
 
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I also believe SHBG is under discussed or valued here. Atleast directly. Generally it is just simplified down to someone not feeling great at their dose, and another guy telling him he needs more T.

Regardless it's all good info in here... Not all threads need to turn into these weird circular arguments where everyone agrees but they don't even realize it.

-Jim
 
Baldur: what you are saying about Total T and Free T isn't anything new or revolutionary. You doc friend was not a genius. The relationships of the two and with age have been understood for a long time. Here is a simple chart even that shows them.

As you can see, your Total T was not "really good for your age. It was pretty much right on the average line. Considering you had low T symptoms it made perfect sense to check you for what is known as Borderline Hypogonadism which is done by checking Free T levels. This is standard operating procedure for diagnosing Hypogonadism (in the US at least).

ohs405.jpg
 
Here is what is recommended by AACE for checking Testosterone levels in men presenting with Hypogonadism. Again, checking Free T is standard operating procedure in certain cases.

Testosterone
Testosterone levels vary from hour to hour; periodic
declines below the normal range can occur in some other-
wise normal men (3). An overall diurnal rhythm is also
present, the highest levels of circulating testosterone
occurring during the early morning hours. Therefore,
testosterone levels should be determined in the morning,
and studies should be repeated in patients with subnormal
levels, especially those with no definite signs or symptoms
of hypogonadism.

Testosterone circulates principally in bound form,
mainly to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and
albumin. It tightly binds to SHBG and is not biologically
available, whereas the testosterone fraction associated
with albumin is weakly bound and can dissociate to free,
active testosterone (4). In young adult men, only about 2%
of testosterone is in the free form, 30% is bound tightly to
SHBG, and 68% is weakly bound to albumin (5).

Although a testosterone determination is the threshold
test in the evaluation of suspected male hypogonadism, the
total testosterone concentration may be within the normal
range in men with primary testicular disorders such as
Klinefelter***8217;s syndrome. Low production of testosterone
and increased estradiol stimulate production of SHBG by
the liver. The increased level of SHBG results in higher
circulating total testosterone than would otherwise be
present with low circulating free testosterone. An
increased SHBG level may also be associated with hyper-
thyroidism, liver disease, severe androgen deficiency, or
estrogen excess. SHBG levels increase about 1% per year
as men age. Male patients with hypogonadism often have
high SHBG levels because of low serum testosterone
levels and enhanced production of estradiol from increas-
es in intratesticular aromatization. Therefore, if the
clinical findings indicate that hypogonadism is present and
the total testosterone levels are normal or borderline low,
the level of SHBG or free testosterone by equilibrium
dialysis should be determined. Measurement of total
testosterone values can be enhanced in borderline cases
with measurement of SHBG levels. Free testosterone
assays are method dependent and may be difficult to inter-
pret. Because albumin binds testosterone weakly, the
amount of free testosterone measured will vary with the
technique. Determination of the serum testosterone con-
centration by equilibrium dialysis is usually more reliable.
Equilibrium dialysis free testosterone measurements are
generally available and used to determine the amount of
testosterone not bound to SHBG or albumin. Free testos-
terone measured by an analogue displacement assay is
probably not reliable and should not be used. An important
research goal is to establish a consistent method for deter-
mining free testosterone levels and to verify the results so
that these levels can be more widely used and trusted. This
issue frequently arises in the assessment of older men with
impotence, in whom free testosterone***8212;or total testos-
terone interpreted with SHBG levels***8212;may be useful for
determining the threshold of therapy
(6-8).

Conversely, a low testosterone level may also be mis-
leading under some circumstances. Slightly subnormal
levels of total testosterone may occur in men with low lev-
els of SHBG and normal circulating levels of free testos-
terone. A low SHBG level may be associated with
hypothyroidism, obesity, or acromegaly. Determination of
the level of SHBG or free testosterone by equilibrium dial-
ysis may be helpful for clarifying the underlying disorder,
especially when the clinical findings are not suggestive of
hypogonadism (9).

Another alternative is the use of the free testosterone
index. The free testosterone index is the testosterone level
(in nanomoles per liter) divided by the SHBG (in
nanomoles per liter) (10).



Here is a link so you can read the whole thing for yourself and u dersrand how Hypogonadism is supposed to be diagnosed - which includes checking Free T at times.


https://www.aace.com/files/hypo-gonadism.pdf
 
It's pretty obvious that no matter what, you are determined to have the last word, even though it contradicts what you were saying originally, namely that free testosterone isn't important.

I can see who runs the board and the underlying premises. Best thing I can do is SHUT UP
 
It's pretty obvious that no matter what, you are determined to have the last word, even though it contradicts what you were saying originally, namely that free testosterone isn't important.

I can see who runs the board and the underlying premises. Best thing I can do is SHUT UP

I never said Free Test is unimportant. You said Total Test is unimportant and I disagreed with that. Don't go changing the story. Go back a read Post #14 again.
 
Here's one study that squarely contradicts the thesis: (TOTAL TEST IS MEANINGLESS - FREE TEST IS KEY!):


Ramasamy R, Golan R, Wilken N, Scovell JM, Lipshultz LI. Association of Free testosterone With Hypogonadal Symptoms in Men With Near-normal Total Testosterone Levels. Urology. http://www.goldjournal.net/article/S0090-4295(15)00432-X/abstract

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the association between hypogonadal symptoms and free testosterone (FT) levels in men with near-normal total testosterone (T) levels (250-350 ng/dL) and to determine whether a discriminatory threshold for FT exists below which hypogonadal symptoms become more prevalent.

METHODS: We reviewed the charts of 3167 men who presented to an outpatient men's health clinic. Two hundred thirty-one men had symptoms of "low testosterone" and serum testosterone levels between 250 and 350 ng/dL.

We evaluated hypogonadal symptoms using the Androgen Deficiency in the Adult Male (ADAM) and quantitative ADAM (qADAM) questionnaires.

Serum levels of T and sex hormone-binding globulin were collected on the same day that men completed their questionnaires.

We used linear regression to determine whether a threshold of FT exists for hypogonadal symptoms. We performed univariate and multivariable analyses to evaluate factors that predicted a low FT level.

RESULTS: The median age was 43.5 years, and the median testosterone and FT levels were 303 ng/dL and 6.3 ng/dL, respectively. Prevalence and severity of hypogonadal symptoms (ADAM and qADAM) were similar between men with low (<6.4 ng/mL) and normal FT levels.

There was an association between age and 3 of the 10 hypogonadal symptoms (decreased enjoyment in life, sadness, and deterioration of work performance) with a low FT on a univariate analysis. Only younger age was positively associated with FT on multivariable analysis.

CONCLUSION: We did not observe a relationship between hypogonadal symptoms and FT in men with near-normal testosterone levels. Symptom-specific FT thresholds could not be defined, as age remains an important confounder.
 
Here's one study that squarely contradicts the thesis: (TOTAL TEST IS MEANINGLESS - FREE TEST IS KEY!):


Ramasamy R, Golan R, Wilken N, Scovell JM, Lipshultz LI. Association of Free testosterone With Hypogonadal Symptoms in Men With Near-normal Total Testosterone Levels. Urology. http://www.goldjournal.net/article/S0090-4295(15)00432-X/abstract

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the association between hypogonadal symptoms and free testosterone (FT) levels in men with near-normal total testosterone (T) levels (250-350 ng/dL) and to determine whether a discriminatory threshold for FT exists below which hypogonadal symptoms become more prevalent.

METHODS: We reviewed the charts of 3167 men who presented to an outpatient men's health clinic. Two hundred thirty-one men had symptoms of "low testosterone" and serum testosterone levels between 250 and 350 ng/dL.

We evaluated hypogonadal symptoms using the Androgen Deficiency in the Adult Male (ADAM) and quantitative ADAM (qADAM) questionnaires.

Serum levels of T and sex hormone-binding globulin were collected on the same day that men completed their questionnaires.

We used linear regression to determine whether a threshold of FT exists for hypogonadal symptoms. We performed univariate and multivariable analyses to evaluate factors that predicted a low FT level.

RESULTS: The median age was 43.5 years, and the median testosterone and FT levels were 303 ng/dL and 6.3 ng/dL, respectively. Prevalence and severity of hypogonadal symptoms (ADAM and qADAM) were similar between men with low (<6.4 ng/mL) and normal FT levels.

There was an association between age and 3 of the 10 hypogonadal symptoms (decreased enjoyment in life, sadness, and deterioration of work performance) with a low FT on a univariate analysis. Only younger age was positively associated with FT on multivariable analysis.

CONCLUSION: We did not observe a relationship between hypogonadal symptoms and FT in men with near-normal testosterone levels. Symptom-specific FT thresholds could not be defined, as age remains an important confounder.
Of course ALL these studies are completely unbiased and true. We believe every word, in spite of the fact that FACT shows the opposite. Once again, people like yourself and the mighty Megatrons can believe whatever you like, thank God I don't have to do.

When I first found this board, I thought it was very helpful - that was a year ago. Today it's populated by trolls of the Medical profession. You can shove your doctors, your pills and your 'studies' along with this Forum, where the sun don't shine. I'm out of here!
 
Of course ALL these studies are completely unbiased and true. We believe every word, in spite of the fact that FACT shows the opposite. Once again, people like yourself and the mighty Megatrons can believe whatever you like, thank God I don't have to do.

When I first found this board, I thought it was very helpful - that was a year ago. Today it's populated by trolls of the Medical profession. You can shove your doctors, your pills and your 'studies' along with this Forum, where the sun don't shine. I'm out of here!

LOL, to each there own but any one with little common sense can see exactly why Total T is important as well as Free T. It's pure ignorance to believe that total t is not important in regards to a possible indicator of a problem. Yes every one agrees free t is extremely important but the point is that its not the only indication of a problem. In all reality they are of equal importance. Yes free t may dictate your symptoms more however total t can point to other problems when used together with free t. Like you said one might have high total t but low free t or vice versa one might have low total t but average or normal free t. Every ones body's function slightly different so its important to have both numbers to accurately tell what the body is doing as a whole picture and not just pieces of the puzzle.
 
I never said Free Test is unimportant. You said Total Test is unimportant and I disagreed with that. Don't go changing the story. Go back a read Post #14 again.

He is confusing his self lol, waste of time to try and explain any further. Just like he said to each there own end of story. :)
 
Of course ALL these studies are completely unbiased and true. We believe every word, in spite of the fact that FACT shows the opposite. Once again, people like yourself and the mighty Megatrons can believe whatever you like, thank God I don't have to do.

When I first found this board, I thought it was very helpful - that was a year ago. Today it's populated by trolls of the Medical profession. You can shove your doctors, your pills and your 'studies' along with this Forum, where the sun don't shine. I'm out of here!

I hope you realize that all the help we gave you a year ago was based on medical studies and science. With a touch of personal experience mixed in to fill in the gaps. Your success today is a product of the studies we have been showing you. How quickly you have turned you back on the science that made you the man you are today. 8-P
 
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