Keto diet experiences on test/mast

[Slakethythirst]

Hey everyone

I have a question regarding people's experience with a ketogenic diet on cycle. I want to do a very lean bulk and will be in a good surplus. I love keto, it gives me sustained energy and mental clarity and allows me to stay very lean. Gains may be a little slower, but I put on fat so easily that I prefer it.

Who's got experience with this? I've done a lot of searching but don't really see much regarding gains vs a standard diet. Has anyone done it both ways?

I recently posted my upcoming cycle that I will be starting in 2 weeks:

M/28/6'/185 lean (don't know exact bmi, prob around 12%)

I have done basic test E 500 cycles in past.

Pre bloods are good. Will get more during cycle to dial in AI dose and again after PCT.

Weeks 1-16

Test E 625mg/wk (M and Th)
Mast E 500mg/wk (M and Th)
Arimidex .5 EOD

Weeks 1-4
Superdrol 20mg/day

Weeks 13-16
Anavar 50mg/day

Weeks 17-18
Arimidex and HCG 500IU/day for 10 days

Weeks 19-22
Nolvadex (40/40/20/20)
Clomid (50/50/25/25)
I will front load both clomid and nolvadex

Thank you

 

[halfwit]

Unless you're a wee fella, or have quite the piggy bank, best of luck to you bulking in ketosis. NOTHING is cheaper than carbohydrates for abundant calories. I loved keto dieting (no gall bladder now = no more of that ), but try doing the math on bulking calories - it's quite expensive.

My .02c

 

[Slakethythirst]

Yes carbs are cheap, but fat is insanely calorie dense and I can put it away when my body is fat-adapted. It's very easy for me to hit my protein macro and then get the rest of my calories from fat. Whole eggs, avocado, butter, heavy cream, bacon, fatty meats, cheeses, coconut oil...

A cup or two of oats or rice may be cheaper but a couple ounces of cheese, an avocado, heavy cream in my coffee, and a steak and veggies smothered in butter can put me thousands of calories above maintenance real quickly....but at the same time are very filling so I won't go overboard. Plus keto I find is very forgiving even in a surplus. I understand the thermodynamics of calories in vs calories burned but it's not that simple when you get into the issue of carb induced insulin spiking which gives me a gut real quick but is a non issue on keto.

Definitely not the cheapest diet, but my cycle isn't cheap, I'm not cheap, and I wouldn't even consider going cheap on something like this. I pay extra for quality gear and I'll pay extra for food, since in the end the diet is what makes it. I just wanna grow, stay lean, and enjoy the masteron haha!!

Thank you for your input though! I was hoping for some more input regarding gains on x calories keto versus x calories standard diet. If I were to eat 3750 calories keto vs 3750 calories standard diet would there really be a huge difference assuming protein macro is the same for both? I will supplement with vitamins and minerals, especially those needed on keto (Na, K, Mg).

And if the standard diet does produce much greater gains in someone's past experience, how much of that was lean mass and how much was just increased glycogen and the associated water weight?

Really would love some anecdotal posts or links to other discussions or papers, I'm having a hard time finding too much myself.

Thank you!!!

 

[halfwit]

Yes carbs are cheap, but fat is insanely calorie dense and I can put it away when my body is fat-adapted. It's very easy for me to hit my protein macro and then get the rest of my calories from fat. Whole eggs, avocado, butter, heavy cream, bacon, fatty meats, cheeses, coconut oil...

A cup or two of oats or rice may be cheaper but a couple ounces of cheese, an avocado, heavy cream in my coffee, and a steak and veggies smothered in butter can put me thousands of calories above maintenance real quickly....but at the same time are very filling so I won't go overboard. Plus keto I find is very forgiving even in a surplus. I understand the thermodynamics of calories in vs calories burned but it's not that simple when you get into the issue of carb induced insulin spiking which gives me a gut real quick but is a non issue on keto.

Definitely not the cheapest diet, but my cycle isn't cheap, I'm not cheap, and I wouldn't even consider going cheap on something like this. I pay extra for quality gear and I'll pay extra for food, since in the end the diet is what makes it. I just wanna grow, stay lean, and enjoy the masteron haha!!

Thank you for your input though! I was hoping for some more input regarding gains on x calories keto versus x calories standard diet. If I were to eat 3750 calories keto vs 3750 calories standard diet would there really be a huge difference assuming protein macro is the same for both? I will supplement with vitamins and minerals, especially those needed on keto (Na, K, Mg).

And if the standard diet does produce much greater gains in someone's past experience, how much of that was lean mass and how much was just increased glycogen and the associated water weight?

Really would love some anecdotal posts or links to other discussions or papers, I'm having a hard time finding too much myself.

Thank you!!!

I think you misunderstood my point. Staying in ketosis requires (for most) staying at sub 50g of carbohydrates, which is going to add up very quickly as I spent well over four years enjoying the lifestyle. This is why I made the comment regarding having a large piggy bank, as meeting PROPER protein intake is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm fully aware at how high fat sources are calorie dense (obviously twice as dense as the other macros), but if you're seriously looking at bulking, you'll need to exceed your TDEE by a generous amount.

Calories in vs calories out does not change one iota; your body doesn't care if the calories are used as glucose/glycogen or ketones - it just sees an energy source, and the ATP process is virtually identical. The biggest issue besides cost is going to be the fact that the conversion is slower in ketosis versus in a non-starvation state. This makes energy expenditures more linear in nature (partially due to the lack of insulin), which can make pushing the envelope a bit more difficult. Yes, you lack hunger due to ghrelin being occupied, but on demand energy does suffer. This is from experience, although I'm positive that there are several papers out there (be sure it's a study on REAL ketogenic diets, not the pseudoscience ones where subjects are at 200g of carbs per diem) as the results will be invariably skewed.

I don't quite know how to respond to your choice in paying more for "quality" food and gear as AAS is AAS, and a calorie is a calorie. Sure, shitty labs exist, but simply paying more does not ensure better results (lab results speak for themselves), nor does your body care if you consumed 400 calories from 50g of fat, or 100g of carbohydrates.

There are better food choices when it comes to micronutrient content, but if you're pushing 5k calories (I tend to push 8k myself) for a bulk, that's an ass ton of cheese/avocados/pork rinds/fatty cuts of meats.

More power to you if you can pull this off, but as you're already a bit underweight (no offense intended), you may want to reexamine your total intake needed. I did put a serious effort into researching this myself once, but $500 a week for groceries AND being flat (no glycogen = flat muscles) was just a deal breaker for me.

I hope if you do decide to push forward with this endeavor, that you run a log so we can follow your progress. I always do enjoy unconventional approaches, even if I'm personally unable to pursue then myself.

 

[Slakethythirst]

Good points! Thank you for your input!