Leangains/IF protocol on cycle

[lee1092]

I am running a 500mg week test e cycle and plan on continuing to use leangains while on. (I love it!)




Has anyone had any experience with it before??


I plan to do -10 on off days which is 2
250p 180c 70f

and +15 on lifting days to start
250p 350c 70f

5'6 165 around 10-12%

any opinions?

 

[lee1092]

upped my protein on cylce, usually dont run it that high, but out of all the macros protein is prob the best one to up.

 

[James42]

Its not real popular around here but Ive done 3 cycles and used IF both on and off cycle. I've had excellent results and stayed lean the whole time.
Its the only I will ever eat now.

 

[lee1092]

Its not real popular around here but Ive done 3 cycles and used IF both on and off cycle. I've had excellent results and stayed lean the whole time.
Its the only I will ever eat now.

good amount of muscle put on with cycle while doing leangains?

 

[ajntorinj]

I found it incredibly hard to adhere to the 8-hour fed-state window while getting in all of the necessary calories on my first cycle. Midway through I relaxed that constraint, so while I still did not eat breakfast I was not confined to eating within an 8-hour period of time. This worked a lot better for me. You should see what works for you, though.

 

[infamy]

I was a big believer in Leangains and IF for quite some time.

But it sadly boils down to this. You are calorie restricting and cycling ***8230; both which you could do on a non fasted diet. In-fact might i add that fasting has ZERO benefit to hypertrophy or muscular growth. In fact it can be quite catabolic, your able to loose ALOT of scale weight but a lot is comprised of muscle***8230;. even on AAS.

The general consensus is ***8230; if your attempting rapid fat-loss and scale weight reduction, then IF could be implemented with success. But if growth and optimal muscle mass retention is the goal, IF is simply a poor choice when compared to spreading your calories and protein feedings all day.

When using AAS, your body's ability to use dietary protein towards your physique goals are enhanced. Why then, would you limit protein synthesis to a small window ?

Best

Infamy

 

[lee1092]

There is a lot of research backing small fasting windows though, releasing growth hormones etc etc. I also find it to help people stick to a certain window so they dont go over their calorie goals by eating them all early in the day and being hungry later and stuffing more food. Lyle Mcdonald talked about a lot of research backing small fasting windows due to the fact the body doesnt get in a major catabolic state till I believe 72 hrs, Id have to look at the article. But he backed a lot of stuff the guy mentioned, w.e his name is, on the leangains.com site.

 

[lee1092]

but it is true that it comes to calorie surplus vs calorie deficit some w.e fits a persons lifestyle its their choice.

Thanks for the opinions

 

[DreDay187]

I was a big believer in Leangains and IF for quite some time.

But it sadly boils down to this. You are calorie restricting and cycling ***8230; both which you could do on a non fasted diet. In-fact might i add that fasting has ZERO benefit to hypertrophy or muscular growth. In fact it can be quite catabolic, your able to loose ALOT of scale weight but a lot is comprised of muscle***8230;. even on AAS.

The general consensus is ***8230; if your attempting rapid fat-loss and scale weight reduction, then IF could be implemented with success. But if growth and optimal muscle mass retention is the goal, IF is simply a poor choice when compared to spreading your calories and protein feedings all day.

When using AAS, your body's ability to use dietary protein towards your physique goals are enhanced. Why then, would you limit protein synthesis to a small window ?

Best

Infamy

There are 2 aspects to be concerned with protein synthesis: the amplitude of the spike and the frequency with which you spike it. A delicate balance exists in that the more often you spike protein synthesis the lower the actual spike for each spike. If the frequency is too high, i.e. you're spiking protein synthesis 6,7,8 times or more per day, you reduce the level of spike each time. If you spike it less frequently the level of spike increases but you get less spikes. It's a balancing act and one in which there's no evidence showing either extreme is better, rather as usual, the best choice is somewhere in the middle.

Edit* this is your second post that has this funny text to it which from what I've seen only comes when you copy and paste text. If you're copying and pasting you should be quoting or referencing also. Don't know what exactly is going on just saying.

 

[DreDay187]

There is a lot of research backing small fasting windows though, releasing growth hormones etc etc. I also find it to help people stick to a certain window so they dont go over their calorie goals by eating them all early in the day and being hungry later and stuffing more food. Lyle Mcdonald talked about a lot of research backing small fasting windows due to the fact the body doesnt get in a major catabolic state till I believe 72 hrs, Id have to look at the article. But he backed a lot of stuff the guy mentioned, w.e his name is, on the leangains.com site.

The research isn't quite what you believe it to be and Martin Berkhan conveniently ignores this or exaggerates this. To get the hormonal benefit of fasting the minimum fast required to see any sort of significant growth hormone release is 24hiurs minimum for a very small increase. A larger increase happens at the 5day mark. I don't know about you but I don't know anyone who is going to fast for 24hours let alone 5days. Couple that with the fact that its only a statistically significant increase and hasn't been shown to be clinically significant in any manner, and you have the makings of the next "fad" diet with exaggerated claims and a fiercely loyal followers. If IF fits your lifestyle, do it. If it doesn't, don't. It's that simple. These hormonal and growth hormone benefits are exaggerated like many other things in life.

 

[lee1092]

interesting...I guess the biggest part of the 'fasting' idea is to break people from this 6meal a day mindset and help focus target calories in a certain time period and be done..

 

[DreDay187]

interesting...I guess the biggest part of the 'fasting' idea is to break people from this 6meal a day mindset and help focus target calories in a certain time period and be done..

Yes, looking on the macro scale, daily intake is more important that hourly intake and taking it a step further, weekly intake is more important than daily. It's a balance of energy, think conservation of mass and the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics. The timing of nutrients may possibly affect each individual differently and someone may be able to perform better with more meals while another performs better or is more consistent with fewer meals. Consistency and overall intake being matched to goals is the difference maker in body composition. When I have extremely busy days i tend to eat fewer but bigger meals. When my time isn't so limited I prefer eating 4-5meals a day. Preference!

 

[lee1092]

Retrospective analysis of available data (Figure 4) has indicated that a ***8220;safe***8221; level of protein intake for strength-trained athletes is 1.33 g · kg***8722;1 · d***8722;1; however, this estimate is based on nitrogen balance, which is at best a badly flawed approach for examining protein requirements. All things considered, it is abundantly clear that any protein requirement set for strength-training athletes is of little relevance, considering that these athletes habitually consume protein far in excess of any recommended level, even the pseudo-recommendation based on Figure 4, in their normal diet. In other sports of which strength and power are components, e.g., wrestling, rugby, ice hockey, or American football, a requirement for dietary protein would be easily met when the athlete is consuming adequate energy, which may have a much greater influence on protein requirements than protein itself. Therefore, as a guide, I believe that the joint position statement of the American College of Sports Medicine, the American Dietetic Association, and the Dietitians of Canada62 is the best guide that can be given: ***8220;Data are not presently available, however, to suggest that athletes need a diet substantially different from that recommended in the Dietary Guidelines for Americans or the Nutrition Recommendations for Canadians (55% to 58% of energy from carbohydrate, 12% to 15% of energy from protein, and 25% to 30% of energy from fat).***8221; There is no evidence to suggest that protein supplements are more effective than consumption of high-quality protein from standard dietary sources.

 

[lee1092]

Like you stated about energy balance, a lot of studies like at nitrogen balance for optimal protein intake which in many studies is said to be .08-1g per kg. Like youve stated before, hell we all enjoy our chicken and steak, so out of the 3, protein, fat and carbs, protein has been shown to have the least negative effect (within reason) in excess amounts....so instead of jacking carbs to 500 to meet calorie goals, simply up protein to meet it. There are still mixed studies to prove whether it has benefits or not, but that i am unsure of....

Correct me if I am wrong, or tell me if I am on the right track

 

[TheDarkHalf]

for me lean gains is more or less calorie management....eat what you want when you want till you are full...count your calories accordingly and make sure you're within your budget for your goals and you're g2g....if your schedule is better for 2-3 meals then do that....if you want to do 6 meals do that....sometimes i'll do the 8 hour window....sometimes i'll do 12....just depends on what's going on and my ability to control my diet given my schedule

 

[lee1092]

ya true, I look at it like a bank account I have x amount of carbs to 'spend' etc lol!

 

[lee1092]

for me lean gains is more or less calorie management....eat what you want when you want till you are full...count your calories accordingly and make sure you're within your budget for your goals and you're g2g....if your schedule is better for 2-3 meals then do that....if you want to do 6 meals do that....sometimes i'll do the 8 hour window....sometimes i'll do 12....just depends on what's going on and my ability to control my diet given my schedule

It helps me b/c I like training fasted, not having to grab breakfast in a rush and like you said controlling calories and having the window to look forward to! I honestly love it, some dont. W.e floats your boat

 

[DreDay187]

Like you stated about energy balance, a lot of studies like at nitrogen balance for optimal protein intake which in many studies is said to be .08-1g per kg. Like youve stated before, hell we all enjoy our chicken and steak, so out of the 3, protein, fat and carbs, protein has been shown to have the least negative effect (within reason) in excess amounts....so instead of jacking carbs to 500 to meet calorie goals, simply up protein to meet it. There are still mixed studies to prove whether it has benefits or not, but that i am unsure of....

Correct me if I am wrong, or tell me if I am on the right track

You have a point with protein. On its own it would be the least harmful to overeat on in terms of body composition but the body is smarter than that. The issue comes in when you overeat. When you overeat on protein, the body requires less energy from carbs and fats so while the excess protein won't get stored as fat, what will happen is the body will store more dietary fat intake as fat and oxidize less fat to compensate. If looking at the micro scale overeating protein would work without getting you fat but when you look at the big picture its a closed system and energy from carbs and fat doesn't just disappear. It has to be accounted for

 

[3J]

jesus... not this crap again

 

[infamy]

There are 2 aspects to be concerned with protein synthesis: the amplitude of the spike and the frequency with which you spike it. A delicate balance exists in that the more often you spike protein synthesis the lower the actual spike for each spike. If the frequency is too high, i.e. you're spiking protein synthesis 6,7,8 times or more per day, you reduce the level of spike each time. If you spike it less frequently the level of spike increases but you get less spikes. It's a balancing act and one in which there's no evidence showing either extreme is better, rather as usual, the best choice is somewhere in the middle.

Edit* this is your second post that has this funny text to it which from what I've seen only comes when you copy and paste text. If you're copying and pasting you should be quoting or referencing also. Don't know what exactly is going on just saying.

text issue is because whenever i try to use . . . . . . without spaces it enters some random text. Agreed on the spiking issue, Nortons research on the leucine threshold had i think 3 - 4 feedings as optimal ?