Leg training...looking to break out!

[Mrrippedzilla]

If he was training to failure every single time, I would agree with you that there would be some CNS damage. I don't think he is though he is 40 yrs old prolly has some lifting experience. If you are training to keep a steady overload it is easy to fit in a muscle group 3x a week with plenty of rest.

The facts still remain that you claimed overtraining to be broscience and I think I've shown you enough evidence that it isn't. There are literall dozens of studies showing that overtraining does exist - why do you think every single elite athlete in every single sport is urged to follow some form of periodiziation programme? Come on bro, practically all studies on training warn of the risks of overtraining.

Also, as I have already said - you do not need to train to failure to cause overtraining, high volume and frequency will do the job just fine. I still don't understand why your advocating training a muscle group 3x per week when I just PROVED that 2x was most optimal for muscle growth. The OP wants muscle growth - 3x is not going to help accomplish that, all it will do is waste time that could be used to recover and grow.

DreDay:
That's certainly an accurate definition of symptoms linked to overtraining
My difficulty in defining overtraining related more to what would cause overtraining to an individual. As I said before, people have different rates of recovery so while one individual would find recovering from 5x lifting difficult, another could 5x lifting plus 2x hiit and recover perfectly fine (I have observed this myself). I think your ability to recover (mostly down to genetics and nutrition) has a huge impact in your ability to train harder and more frequently.

 

[lachrymist]

Just bc you haven't been able to create enough systemic fatigue or your training is lacking doesn't mean something doesn't exist.

Whatever you want to think is fine with me, I'm not here to get your approval, ad hominem attacks do nothing to further the discussion. Most people who have been lifting more than a couple of years don't train to failure, sorry if I assumed a couple of things first that people were on gear and second that people knew how to lift. That mistake won't happen again. What you have proved is people can UNDER the right circumstances be under recovered, why do pros find it optimal to bring up lagging muscles with more frequency? Anyway I've said my peace I'm done with this conversation.

 

[DreDay187]

Whatever you want to think is fine with me, I'm not here to get your approval, ad hominem attacks do nothing to further the discussion. Most people who have been lifting more than a couple of years don't train to failure, sorry if I assumed a couple of things first that people were on gear and second that people knew how to lift. That mistake won't happen again. What you have proved is people can UNDER the right circumstances be under recovered, why do pros find it optimal to bring up lagging muscles with more frequency? Anyway I've said my peace I'm done with this conversation.

Explain to me how my quote is an ad hominem attack on you? You claim overtraining is bull and cannot back up your claim. This lead me to believe you've never experienced overtraining since you don't think it's real. Overtraining will happen when systemic fatigue levels are chronically elevated or your progress is too fast, loads used too heavy, volume used too much etc. Now how is that a personal attack on you? Where does it tell you you need my approval for anything? You made a factually incorrect statement and I explained why you've never experienced overtraining.

Overtraining doesn't require training to failure that's a misconception. High intensity and/or volume is enough to do the trick. Some types of training lift to failure and don't overtrain so it's not that simple.

What you said at the end is overtraining, showing us it is real. Which pros do you lift with that you know what they do in the gym?

 

[BigGains]

40 yrs old 5'11" at 200 lbs.

current training is Push/Pull/Legs with abs and calves 3 times a week. A little cardio in between.

My wheels are lacking especially my calves. I see some slow progress in my quads, even slower progress in my hamstrings and glutes, but man are my calves lookin sad.

I want to spend the next 6 months to try to get my legs bigger. I am almost convinced that I should actually do legs more during the week but so many people say that you can't recover well and will actually lose size by overtraining.

But I have been squatting , leg press, extension,curls,lunges, high reps, 5 x 5, 10 x 10, singles, pause reps etc.
I usually give any program at least 12 weeks before I try something else.

I am willing on doing a program that focuses on leg growth even if that means not doing as much for upper body.

Any advice?

The calf muscles are composed of the gastro & soleus. The gastro in particular has a higher amount of slow twitch muscle fibers, and is stimulated best by super high reps. You work the gastro any time your legs are straight and you're pressing off the ball of your foot (think standing calf raises or calf raises on the leg press machine-straight legs in both situations). The soleus have been shown to respond to heavier weights (the distribution of slow/fast twitch muscle fibers is a bit skewed to fast in this muscle). That being said, seated calf raises (where the knees are bent...think sitting in a chair), which stimulate the soleus, can be done effectively with a higher weight and lower rep schematic. While not everyone is exactly the same, the relative distribution of slow and fast twitch muscle fibers in those two muscles (that make up the calf muscles) are more or less consistent amongst everyone.

What I've done that has worked extremely well...get on a leg press machine, and choose a weight that you think you could get 15 reps with (resulting in a significant burn...so not real light by any means)...try to push through to 20. Once you get there ( or close), drop the weight a bit and push out another 10-15 (I.e. Dropset). Rest 30 seconds, then repeat that two more times (total of three separate drop sets, totaling 90 reps or more). The goal is to hit failure at the end of each dropset. Really squeeze at the top, and keep the tension as constant as possible while rep ping them out like your life depends on it. It's brutal...but I literally see veins in both calves after this.

 

[yellowballs]

Guys (BigGains, Dre,Zilla,Carv,Shredder,Casper,) great feedback from everybody! Im going to utilize everything you guys gave me.

 

[yellowballs]

Ok, Zilla, I did a total of 50 reps for squats this morn. I also did a toatl of 32 reps of step ups. So basically according to what your saying I did too much? Squats & step ups Im hitting the same muscle groups. So I did 82 reps.
I also did Nordics which hit the hams but since I did squats which also hit the hams I did to much there as well?

So I should have done say 30 reps for squats, 20 reps for step ups and 10 reps for nordics to reach 60 and call it a day?

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Ok, Zilla, I did a total of 50 reps for squats this morn. I also did a toatl of 32 reps of step ups. So basically according to what your saying I did too much? Squats & step ups Im hitting the same muscle groups. So I did 82 reps.
I also did Nordics which hit the hams but since I did squats which also hit the hams I did to much there as well?

So I should have done say 30 reps for squats, 20 reps for step ups and 10 reps for nordics to reach 60 and call it a day?

The science recommended 30-60 reps per muscle group, NOT PER WORKOUT - so if you train legs 2x week then it should be a max of 30 reps per workout.

Howevever, with compound exercises (squats, all forms of deadlift, etc) it gets complicated because your not just using one muscle group.
I would recommend sticking to the 30-60 range for the compound exercises; so if you train legs 2x week then don't go over 30 reps on squats.
For isolation work (leg extensions, calf raises, etc) you can add an extra 20-30 reps per week (10-15 per workout) on top of the 30-60 for the compounds. I should say this isn't based on science, more on what I've observed works for me & my clients.

Basically: 30-60 reps of compound work + 20-30 reps of isolation per muscle group, per week, spread over 1-2 days.
So if we take your squats/step ups & nordics: If you train 2x week keep the combined reps for squats/step ups to 30, 10-15 for nordics.

This might look like low volume but remember the intensity should be high (not quite until failure, but close enough on 5-10 reps per set)

 

[DreDay187]

Ok, Zilla, I did a total of 50 reps for squats this morn. I also did a toatl of 32 reps of step ups. So basically according to what your saying I did too much? Squats & step ups Im hitting the same muscle groups. So I did 82 reps.
I also did Nordics which hit the hams but since I did squats which also hit the hams I did to much there as well?

So I should have done say 30 reps for squats, 20 reps for step ups and 10 reps for nordics to reach 60 and call it a day?

It's not possible to say bc of all the other factors especially things like your workload capacity and intensity used. This is why it's important to learn how to program your training, keep a log, and pay attention to your training sessions.

In my own training I squat 3x/wk on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. In the beginner stages I was doing 3sets of 5reps each and every squat day for my worksets along with whatever I did for warmups. I was adding 10lbs per workout (30lbs/wk) at first, that slowed to 5lbs per workout (15lbs/wk), all the way up until I bought micro plates and began doing 1lb increases every workout.

When I exhausted beginner training I went to intermediate and did 5sets of 5reps for squats 3days/wk (same schedule). Tuesday is volume day where I do 5sets of 5 for my work sets at normal weight. Thursday is light/recovery day so 4sets of 5reps but at 70-80% of my 5RM. Saturday is intensity day so I go for a PR with either 5s, Trips, doubles, or singles. Weight lifted increases from Tuesday to Tuesday, Thrusday to Thursday and Saturday to Saturday. Beginning of intermediate training and end of beginner I was squatting around 345 for 3sets of 5. End of my lifting program for intermediate I was squatting around 440 for 5sets of 5. Many would call this overtraining but I had a high workload capacity and built it up further, I kept volume low so intensity would stay high, I would do periodical deloads when progress stalled, etc.

 

[yellowballs]

Zilla, ok thanks for clarification ......The other option would be if I want a more high rep workout then I would just train 1 x per week.

Dre, nice program! It figures it would be all scientific and sort of complex coming from you!

Thanks guys

 

[casperthefriendly]

What I've done that has worked extremely well...get on a leg press machine, and choose a weight that you think you could get 15 reps with (resulting in a significant burn...so not real light by any means)...try to push through to 20. Once you get there ( or close), drop the weight a bit and push out another 10-15 (I.e. Dropset). Rest 30 seconds, then repeat that two more times (total of three separate drop sets, totaling 90 reps or more). The goal is to hit failure at the end of each dropset. Really squeeze at the top, and keep the tension as constant as possible while rep ping them out like your life depends on it. It's brutal...but I literally see veins in both calves after this.

I did a very similar workout for 4 or 5 months. Started with one plate on each side of the leg press and did set to failure. Rest one minute. Add one plate to each side and do set to failure. Repeated until I got enough weight to fail around ten reps and then did drop set. I saw some real nice growth with this. Also I did drop set seated calf raises after the leg press raises.