Low and Morphed Jesus Juice

dirkdiggler9969

New member
Sup, I'm 28yrs old and have done approx. 10 cycles since about age 22. I had my swimmers checked last week because I've been trying to knock up the wife to no avail. My sperm count was only 6 million but 95% were severely amorphous which I guess is the biggest problem. My last cycle was about 8 1/2 month ago and was kinda long. It was a Tren, Test E cycle and I did HCG and ran Nolva at the end. Everything about this last cycle was normal except I got the worst acne I have ever had. When I say worse, I mean SAW VI worse. I had huge cystic acne on my back and chest and it was nothing like I ever got before. I was on antibiotics and creams for months after. That shit finally cleared up leaving me wiith some descent scarring on my lower back though. I haven't had my test leverls checked yet but I feel totally normal now and have for a couple months. Have any of you guys had any of the same swimmer problems as me and if so, what did the doctor do for you. I have an appointment with him to go over the results in about a week.
 
Shooting Blanks

Sup, I'm 28yrs old and have done approx. 10 cycles since about age 22. I had my swimmers checked last week because I've been trying to knock up the wife to no avail. My sperm count was only 6 million but 95% were severely amorphous which I guess is the biggest problem. My last cycle was about 8 1/2 month ago and was kinda long. It was a Tren, Test E cycle and I did HCG and ran Nolva at the end. Everything about this last cycle was normal except I got the worst acne I have ever had. When I say worse, I mean SAW VI worse. I had huge cystic acne on my back and chest and it was nothing like I ever got before. I was on antibiotics and creams for months after. That shit finally cleared up leaving me wiith some descent scarring on my lower back though. I haven't had my test leverls checked yet but I feel totally normal now and have for a couple months. Have any of you guys had any of the same swimmer problems as me and if so, what did the doctor do for you. I have an appointment with him to go over the results in about a week. I got a girl pregnant before I ever did a cycle, hopefully I haven't irreverseably fucked myself. From what I've read, it doesn't look good.
 
sorry bro i was allready through haveing kids before i started lifting serious. i think needsize had kids during his " serious training " send him a pm.
 
I just had a kid about 2 years after coming off. One thig you should know just because they are bad now doesn't mean they will stay that way. No doctor will tell you the truth about this. You need to detox your whole body. you need to take off all the Body fat and eat completely organic and avoid any preservatives and undergo iv Chelation Therapy. It may take 6 month to a year to detox. Then some HCG from the doc to get your count up.

I was running IGF1 LR3 when my wife got Prego. It has been suggested that it will help with male fertility issues.
 
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I seem to remember Needsize indeed got his wife preggers during a cycle (he takes off something like 4 weeks a year). Everyones genetics are different though.
 
I'd be interested in Doc's response here. What I can say DD is that tren is in my experience the single most supprsssive compound, not only due to the extreemly high androgenic action, suposedly 7 times more androgenic that testosterone mg for mg! but it along with deca, but worse than deca creates a prolactin, progestin issues which are also inhibitary on the endocrine system, which in turn will cause abnormal sperm count and possibly motility in most people.

Trenbolone is a PgR ligand with mixed agonist/antagonist activity. Perhaps more importantly it also highly suppresses natural progesterone as well as alters its metabolism. Antagonist action at the PgR can be just as much an issue as agonist action. And of course agonist action does not mean that it has the same modulatory effects on ER as progesterone. Nor does it mean that it has the same transcriptional effects as progesterone.

Its not entirely clear whether trenbolone always raises prolactin, in some cases it certainly appears to. It's more consistent effects may be as an allosteric modulator of PRL-R activation and/or expression. However, what can be said with certainty is that prolactin suppression is effective in the treatment of issues that stem from trenbolone, including both libido and gynecomastia."

Basically just because something is a PgR agonist or a PgR antagonist does not mean that its activity will be the same or opposite of progesterone. Also because these compounds are a bit "slutty", you can be sure that they will be binding to other sites, especially when other hormones are suppressed or when ratios are different. Progesterone is actually a very widely acting hormone and it has numerous active neurosteroid metabolites. Trenbolone metabolites likely have some similar actions (or at least metabolic pathways)

Time is a healer as they say and you haven't said wether you have had regular bloodwork and what the results were, eg have you still got low natural test, is it getting better with time.

Ultimately you want to get your sperm count up and have good swimmers, I'm saying there will most likely be low test thats causing this, or progesterone issues, personally I'D LEAVE THINGS WELL ALONE FOR A GOOD WHILE possibly with only the addittion of a SERM like nolvadex at 20mg per day. However if things don't get better in 6-9 months Anabolic Doc may have a HCG dosing strategy that would work.
 
I haven't had bloodwork done yet. I'm sure that comes next week. I would imagine my test levels are low, but my libido is still great and I don't feel like I normally do when my levels are low. We'll see. My wife is obviously upset by all this and my huge stash in the closest isn't makin gher any happier. I just got a bunch of GH before we found out about this and no you can't have it now.
 
Anabolic Doc isn't going to practice medicine over the internet. If you want Treatment Go see him. I do know the Urologist will prescribe Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use everyday for over a year. Contrary to myth the body doesn't desensitize to it.
 
I know of people who have had the treatment that long. Llewelyn and Roberts read and write well. The truth is nether have done real medical research. A lot of hooker's book was take from other people. He offered to pay people for there writing and then didn't pay them.

Llewelyn has been known to spin things for his own benefits. THey are both very intelligent guys. Hooker is a criminal.

If you were around a few years back in the Golden age Swale was a fan favorite in the online bodybuilding communities. He was the guys to go see for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) he even wrote a protocol that i still n the board here. What most people didn't know was he was a pediatrist not an endo or enturnist.

i had a friend go see him who was very sick who needed help recovering. This guy was in a bad way and his only treatment was trt.
 
I can certainly believe that many years doping with test can have an effect that may not be reversable, but I certainly thing one should try anyway. I've been using for a long long time, I'm six months off now and libido feels normal albeit not like when I was 15 years old, strength is relatively good so I'm pretty happy, I ran Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) initially then nolva for a few months, doing nothing now.

I haven't had my sperm tested but did once before when I came off and it took exactly 6 months till it got back to normal count.

I've used Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) before in different ways, firstly onld school way 5000iu per week for three week, then next time I did 500iu per day for three weeks.

In the first example it certainly seemed like the first shot worked but shots two and three didn't do as much indicating a desensitising of the testes to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), second time round it was a bit better.

I'd expect that if your gonna run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for a long time and try avoid down regulating its best to go with low regular dose to try and emulate the pulsing that occurs in LH/FSH production. The real fear I would have is that your natural LH wouldn't work when you stopped but its interesting anyway.

If anabolic doc knows the answer for sure and can say generally with total confidence and experience that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) usage for those lengths of time dont desensitise then me thinks he should chime in here, clearly for absolute personal diagnosis and treatment he needs to know peoples exact circumstance but he can certainly give us an in principle answer here without prejudicing his business.
 
I have generally used Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout my cycles and never had a problem getting my wife pregnant...funny thing is I tried going clean, she didnt get pregnant...went back on and hit up the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) again, she got pregnant
 
I have generally used Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) throughout my cycles and never had a problem getting my wife pregnant...funny thing is I tried going clean, she didnt get pregnant...went back on and hit up the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) again, she got pregnant

can you be more specific, how long were you off

what was the course you'd done before

did you run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) pct after the course ended

how long did you try for a kid

did you have your sperm tested, if so how long after you'd come off and what were the results

lastly what dosage Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) did you run through your cycle when she got preggas?

It takes a normal couple on average a year to get pregnant although many times it happens earlier
 
Ok Ok Ok Guys Ive been on call in the hospital(s) taking care of all my little old ladies..(that is how I keep up on cardiology) sorry I have not responded to the very interesting posts here on AS and fertility among other things. I do read the posts on my Black Berry when they come in, but I have to sit at a desktop to respond...And thanks to the Dread Pirate Roberts for piping up for me and a special shout out to Mr Incredible. Mr Increadible really knows his shit and is obviously very bright and tuned in, not too mention motivated in researching current day literature on this topic with real studies. I applaud that big time. And I do owe Mr Incredible a reply on HCg regimens thatI use in my clinic. But first let me say, I take a basic approach to this topic, first of all because for me what I have been doing works 80 % of the time to restore fertility and secondly, because my unique niche in the world is essentially cardiac/metabolic care of lifters/nonlifters who may have used AS. I want you guys to know that I really dont give much attention to PCT and how to get the balls going and all this talk that I see on this board.. it does not mean that it is not important!!! my special practice is involved with AS and heart disease, hypertension, diabetes and strokes and the prevention of..
 
lets keep going... Lifters come to me because they want their heart, liver, prostate and kidney preserved. This is my very unique place in medicine. I have trained in the top medical training programs in the USA in Internal Medicine and Cardiology and I share that knowledge with my patients and now I am focusing this on lifters---mostly power lifters because they really beat the shit out of their bodies (as I have and now I still bench over 500 lbs..because my heart is in great shape at 44!!) I love these guys and want to keep them free of enlarged hearts and dizzy spells and so they do not have CHF and heart attacks when they have grand children.... That is my calling in life... so MR Incredible, if you want a job here in the USA I would love to consider hiring you as my "fertility " GURU and possible one day when the anabolic doc takes over the US market we can work together, because my time is spent on hearts and kidneys !!!

Here it is for you Mr Incredible..this is one of my regimens ..check out doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) below..and this has been working for me.. enjoy!!

INTRODUCTION — Sperm production cannot be stimulated in men who are infertile as a result of primary hypogonadism (due to damage to the seminiferous tubules). On the other hand, sperm production can usually be stimulated to a level sufficient to restore fertility in men who are infertile as a result of secondary hypogonadism, ie, due to damage to the pituitary or hypothalamus. Men who have pituitary disease can be treated with gonadotropins, while those with hypothalamic disease can be treated with gonadotropins or gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). (See "Causes of secondary hypogonadism in males").

INDUCTION OF FERTILITY USING GONADOTROPINS — Secondary hypogonadism is associated with decreased secretion of the gonadotropins, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), resulting in reductions in testosterone secretion and sperm production. This disorder should, in theory, respond to the administration of LH and FSH. In practice, testosterone secretion virtually always increases to normal after replacement of LH, and sperm production more often than not increases after replacement of LH alone or LH plus FSH. Testosterone replacement alone will not restore spermatogenesis.

Which patients are likely to respond? — The diagnosis of secondary hypogonadism must be firmly established before therapy is begun, since only patients whose infertility is due to this disorder will respond. (See "Clinical features and diagnosis of male hypogonadism"). Gonadotropin treatment will not increase the sperm count in men who have idiopathic oligospermia, in which a subnormal sperm count is associated with a normal serum testosterone concentration [1].

Several factors enhance the likelihood that the sperm count will be increased, and increased sooner after gonadotropin administration:

* Development of hypogonadism after puberty rather than before. In one study, as an example, all six men whose hypogonadism occurred postpubertally experienced an increase in total sperm count from less than one million to above 40 million per ejaculate when treated with hCG alone; in comparison, only one of eight men whose hypogonadism occurred prepubertally (but without cryptorchidism) had a similar response [2].

* Partial hypogonadism, rather than complete, as judged by less severe abnormalities of testicular size [3-5] and reductions in the serum concentrations of FSH, inhibin, and testosterone.

* Descent of both testes into the scrotum at birth or by one year of age, rather than unilateral or bilateral cryptorchidism (which may damage the seminiferous tubules) requiring surgical correction [2,6]. In one report, as an example, only one of the seven men with prepubertal hypogonadism and cryptorchidism had an increase in sperm count to within the normal range in response to hCG and hMG [2].

Use of gonadotropin with assisted reproductive technologies — Gonadotropin treatment of men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism results in the appearance of sperm in the ejaculate in up to 90 percent of these men, but often not to normal [4]. Even if pregnancy does not occur spontaneously, the number of sperm is often sufficient that pregnancy can be achieved with the help of an assisted reproductive technique, which may be as simple as insemination with the patient's semen (intrauterine insemination, IUI) or as elaborate as intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI) [7]. (See "Intracytoplasmic sperm injection") or in vitro fertilization (See "In vitro fertilization").

Use of human chorionic gonadotropin — Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) has the biologic activity of LH but a longer half life in the circulation; it stimulates the Leydig cells of the testes to synthesize and secrete testosterone. hCG is used to replace LH in men who have secondary hypogonadism and desire to become fertile. It is approved by the Food and Drug Administration for this purpose. Both urinary and recombinant hCG preparations are available. There is no theoretical reason to use recombinant human LH, since it has a shorter half life (10 hours) than hCG and therefore would probably not be effective given three times a week.

LH, by the use of its substitute hCG, is always replaced before FSH for three reasons:

* LH stimulates the Leydig cells to secrete testosterone, which results in an intratesticular testosterone concentration 100 times that in the peripheral circulation, a concentration essential to stimulate spermatogenesis. (See "Male reproductive physiology").

* hCG alone may be sufficient for stimulation of spermatogenesis [2]; FSH alone is not effective [8].

* hCG treatment costs approximately $2500 a year; replacement of FSH (recombinant FSH or human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG)) costs $9000 to $18,000 a year (hMG) and even more for recombinant FSH.

After stopping testosterone therapy, hCG is administered according to the following regimen:

* Patients are taught to self-administer the medication intramuscularly in the thigh at an initial dose of 2000 units three times a week (the recombinant preparation, which is dosed differently, is administered subcutaneously). (See "In vitro fertilization").

* The serum testosterone concentration is measured every one to two months and, if it is not between 400 and 900 ng/dL within three to four months, the dose is increased accordingly. Some patients require as little as 500 units per dose and others as much as 10,000 units. On rare occasions the serum testosterone concentration fails to respond to hCG, a problem thought to be due to antibodies to hCG [9,10].

* The sperm count is measured every two to four weeks, but the value is not used to adjust the hCG dose. Most patients who eventually reach a normal sperm count (over 20 million/mL or 40 million/ejaculate) do so within six months, but some require 12 to 24 months [3]. The addition of hMG should be considered if the sperm count does not reach one-half normal by 12 to 24 months. The sperm produced by this regimen are qualitatively normal; thus, less than a normal number of sperm is usually sufficient to restore fertility (show figure 1) [11].

Adverse effects of hCG therapy are few and generally similar to those of testosterone. (See "Testosterone treatment of male hypogonadism"). The frequency of gynecomastia, however, may be greater with hCG.

Use of hMG — hMG contains FSH and is the pharmaceutical preparation used to replace FSH in stimulating spermatogenesis in men who are infertile due to secondary hypogonadism. Recombinant human follicle stimulating hormone (rhFSH) is also available, but has been less well studied in men [12-14] and is more expensive. This effect of FSH is probably exerted via the Sertoli cells of the seminiferous tubules. FSH appears to be necessary for the initiation of spermatogenesis, but not for its maintenance or reinitiation. As mentioned above, only one of eight men with a prepubertal onset of secondary hypogonadism responded to hCG alone; five of the seven nonresponders showed an increase in sperm count to above 40 million per ejaculate when hMG was added [2]. The likelihood of a response was much less (one of seven men) when prepubertal hypogonadism was accompanied by cryptorchidism, presumably due to seminiferous tubular damage induced by the cryptorchidism (show figure 2). (See "Clinical features and diagnosis of male hypogonadism").

After stopping testosterone therapy, the following regimen is used to administer hMG:

* The initial dose is 75 units (the contents of one vial) by intramuscular injection three times a week (although an hMG preparation is now available that can be given subcutaneously); it is most conveniently administered in the same syringe as hCG. Recombinant FSH preparations are also administered subcutaneously.

* The sperm count is measured once every two to four weeks. The reason for such frequent measurement of the sperm count is that individual values fluctuate considerably, so that many samples are needed to detect a trend. The maximum count is usually achieved within three to 24 months.

* The hMG dose can be increased to 150 units if the sperm count does not reach 20 million per ejaculate within six months. This will increase the serum FSH concentration from low-normal to high-normal, but it is less certain that it will increase the sperm count. As long as the sperm count is at least a few million, however, continuation of hCG and hMG administration is probably worthwhile, because even values this low can result in impregnation spontaneously [10] and is more than sufficient for assisted reproductive technologies.

The only undesirable feature of hMG administration is its cost: $9000/year for 75 units/dose and $18,000 for 150 units/dose. RhFSH is even more expensive.

hMG should be discontinued once pregnancy occurs because of its high cost. On the other hand, hCG (which is much less expensive) should be continued if the couple is considering another pregnancy. Monotherapy with hCG in this setting will usually keep the serum testosterone concentration in the normal range and maintain at least some degree of spermatogenesis. hMG can be added again if the sperm count is not near-normal when another pregnancy is considered. When the couple does not wish to have more children, virilization can be maintained by continuing Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) alone or by using testosterone. (See "Testosterone treatment of male hypogonadism").

INDUCTION OF FERTILITY USING GnRH — Spermatogenesis can also be stimulated in men who have secondary hypogonadism by GnRH, as long as the hypogonadism is the result of hypothalamic disease. The rationale for this treatment is that replacement of GnRH in a physiologic manner, in pulses every two hours, will stimulate the gonadotroph cells of the pituitary to secrete LH and FSH, which in turn will stimulate the testes to produce testosterone and sperm. (See "Physiology of gonadotropin-releasing hormone" and See "Male reproductive physiology").

Use of GnRH — GnRH is administered in a pulsatile fashion by a pump and syringe that is programmed to deliver a bolus of GnRH every two hours and is connected to a subcutaneous needle. The apparatus is worn continuously until pregnancy occurs. The dose of GnRH initially is about 25 ng/kg body weight and is increased, as necessary, until the serum testosterone concentration is normal. Doses as high as 600 ng/kg body weight are necessary in some cases [15]. Sperm may appear in the ejaculate as soon as 12 months after the initiation of treatment but more often three years or more are required. (See "Congenital gonadotropin-releasing hormone deficiency (idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism)", section on Pulsatile GnRH in men).

Virtually all patients treated with this regimen attain a normal serum testosterone concentration, and most develop some sperm in the ejaculate. In one study of 23 men with idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, as an example, 20 showed an increase in sperm count from less than one million to a mean of 96 million sperm/mL of ejaculate [15]. The best predictors of a favorable response are a history of prior sexual maturation, absence of a history of cryptorchidism, and a serum inhibin B concentration >60 pg/mL [16]. Studies comparing gonadotropin to pulsatile GnRH treatment showed similar stimulation of spermatogenesis with both therapies [17,18]. GnRH is currently unavailable in the United States.

RECOMMENDATIONS — We recommend treatment with gonadotropins for most men who have secondary hypogonadism due to either hypothalamic or pituitary disease who wish to become fertile. Gonadotropin is more convenient to administer than GnRH and, if the onset of the hypogonadism was postpubertal, less expensive, because it is likely that only hCG will be necessary. We recommend treating initially with hCG alone and, if the sperm count is not normal within 6 to 12 months, adding hMG. If pregnancy has not occurred spontaneously after a year or more of combined treatment, an assisted reproductive technique, using the patient's semen, should be strongly considered.
 
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