My continuing journey

[miller98b]

Hello everyone. This is the first time that I have ever posted on a forum, but I need to give it a try for my current issues. I've read many of the posts on this site and I apologize if I missed a similar post or if I posted in the wrong location. I'm 31 yo, 6'3, 269 pounds, good build and I do kickboxing for exercise and kettle bell workouts. There have never been any medical issues prior to the last year and a half. I used to play college football and lifted extensively for many years. I've Never used any steroids or major supplements.

Now for the main part of the story.....Over the past year and a half, I have been REALLY dragging, getting dizzy, headaches, blood pressure increased to 150/90, no motivation, irritated and even spent three days in the hospital for neurological testing. They sent me to the hopsital after I had symptoms of being extremely drunk, but I hadn't been drinking. This happened four times and I was sent to the hospital twice. I had a nuclear heart test, MRI's, catscans, STD screenings, Thyroid testing, tested for MS, MD, cancer, tumors and they said I am healthy as a horse. This revealed absolutely nothing and my doctor told me that I was depressed and that I was actually allergic to ibuprofen that I was taking for all of my headaches. I looked into ibuprofen allergies and found nothing substantial. The anti-depr meds did absolutely nothing for me and actually messed my head up. Me and my wife started fighting and I started having sexual problems. We divorced this past June because we couldnt stand each other any more.

A few months ago, I lost all ability to get and maintain an erection, Cialis stopped working, no morning erections, absolutely no desire and I lost 25 pounds with little to no exercise and same eating habits. My doctor put me on Atenolol as well and this reduced my BP down to 125/75. I also started a new job and met someone that I am madly in love with, but problems still persist in "certain" areas. At work, someone told me that I didn't have the same energy as usual and they thought I looked sad. A friend said that I was "acting like a girl." This made a lightbulb go off and I went for another round of tests for things we hadn't tested for before. Everything came back normal except for my T levels. My total was 193 and my free was 6.1. I started Androgel two and a half weeks ago and things have gotten worse. Things I have read stated that it may take 4-6 weeks to get the full effects, but this is hard to handle.

New symptoms: I want to cry at times, I sleep for hours on end with no relief from pure exhaustion, I can't workout well, my arms feel like jello most of the time, my desire is nill, my motivation is dead and the world seems so bland and depressing to me. I know its the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), but I don't know what steps to take. The doctor stated that I should take a blood test at four weeks, but, depending on how that comes back, what should I be prepared to discuss with her. For example:

1. If its low, should I:
a. bump up my androgel
b. ask to switch to shots
c. try a different T gel or patch
d. Get another hormone or estrogen tested
e. Just commit myself to a viking burial

2. If it is above 300, but I don't feel better and I want to increase it more, what should I do?
a. Go to another doctor
b. Get some other med
c. Try some other therapy or hormone
d. jump off a bridge

I appreciate any help and if you could outline progressive steps that would be so very appreciated. I can't live feeling like this anymore, as it feels like I have a vacuum sucking out my energy and manhood right out of my body. Thank you so very much.

-Tired Guy

 

[Megatron28]

First of all, let me say that kickboxing is the sport of the future ( Say Anything).

It is common for people starting androgel to have their T levels drop even lower in the following weeks. It turns off what little is left of the natural production you still had. But it hasn't had time yet to replace your T fully to normal levels. So in the begining you can actually drop further.

Most guys prefer to inject Testosterone Cypionate. It is easy to do yourself and it is cheaper. Best of all, it seems to be more potent and kicks in faster. That being said, it can still take some guys 3-4 weeks before they feel better, but your T levels are low so it should only take a week or two before you start noticing improvements.

So tell your doctor you want to switch to injections. And monitor your Estrodial (form of estrogen) with blood tests. Testosterone can metabolize (aromitisation) into estrogen and you will feel like crap again.

Do lots of reading of old posts on this testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) forum and ask questions. Lots of good into here!

 

[LittleJohnny]

Miller...sorry to hear your story, but I must say it sounds all too familiar. Doc after Doc and test after test and the results were nil. Now that you've finally figured out the real problem it's time to do things right.

First of all, get away from test gel as soon as possible. It's junk. Your skin is covered with aromitase enzyme which converts much of the test gel into estrogen. Test shots are far more effective at raising your level of test while converting less of it to estrogen. If your doc won't prescribe shots, find a better doc. I repeat...test gel sucks, you need shots.

When you're trying to find a good doctor you should interview them as much as they interview you. Ask them if they know that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) increases estrogen in most patients, do they know how to control it, and are they willing to do so. This should be the minimum requirement for a decent HRT doc. Ask them if they know how to control the increases of red blood cells and hematocrit that typically happens while on testosterone replacement therapy. (By the way, simply donating blood about every 90 days takes care of this.) This is another subject that a decent HRT doc should know. If not, this isn't the right doctor. If all else fails, use the sponsor on this site...IMT. They're very knowledgeable.

Lastly, don't jump off a bridge. Once you get your test level back to normal, while controlling any side effects such as estrogen, you'll be a new man. You will get back your energy, your sense of well being, your health, and you'll be able to lay more pipe than an entire crew of plumbers.

 

[miller98b]

Miller...sorry to hear your story, but I must say it sounds all too familiar. Doc after Doc and test after test and the results were nil. Now that you've finally figured out the real problem it's time to do things right.

First of all, get away from test gel as soon as possible. It's junk. Your skin is covered with aromitase enzyme which converts much of the test gel into estrogen. Test shots are far more effective at raising your level of test while converting less of it to estrogen. If your doc won't prescribe shots, find a better doc. I repeat...test gel sucks, you need shots.

When you're trying to find a good doctor you should interview them as much as they interview you. Ask them if they know that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) increases estrogen in most patients, do they know how to control it, and are they willing to do so. This should be the minimum requirement for a decent HRT doc. Ask them if they know how to control the increases of red blood cells and hematocrit that typically happens while on testosterone replacement therapy. (By the way, simply donating blood about every 90 days takes care of this.) This is another subject that a decent HRT doc should know. If not, this isn't the right doctor. If all else fails, use the sponsor on this site...IMT. They're very knowledgeable.

Lastly, don't jump off a bridge. Once you get your test level back to normal, while controlling any side effects such as estrogen, you'll be a new man. You will get back your energy, your sense of well being, your health, and you'll be able to lay more pipe than an entire crew of plumbers.

Thank you so very much for all of that information. Yesterday was a great day. It was the first day that I didn't feel exhausted all day. I stayed up, with energy, from 5 a.m. until 12 a.m. and felt awesome. I had some confidence, felt happy and felt like a man. Today is back down a notch, but I realize it is going to take some time. The "pipe" is still completely out of commission and that is extremely frustrating, but I see the light at the end of the tunnel.....if only I could get my train into the tunnel for a little fun.

Question: How do I start to find a doctor that will help me. It seems like such a crap shoot and three doctors that I have tried to meet with have essentially told me that I am just fishing for roids. One doc said that I should be ashamed of myself. Then I wanted to start crying and I realized, d#$@ I'm turning into a woman again. God, I feel like Iron man without my suit..... PLEASE HELP!!!!

After all my research and everyones help, here is what I am thinking I need to talk about with a good-new doctor:

1. Get another T test with E2 levels tested and not just total estrogen.
2. Get LH and FSH tested (no idea what this is)
3. Start on an A1 (Aromatase Inhibitor) (how much and whats this med called)
4. Start on 1 ml of T-cypoinate by personal injection (100-200 mg/nl every week)
5. Start on an HCG
6. Give blood every 90 days

How does this sound? Missing anything?

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

 

[miller98b]

After all my research and everyones help, here is what I am thinking I need to talk about with a good-new doctor:

1. Get another T test with E2 levels tested and not just total estrogen.
2. Get LH and FSH tested (no idea what this is)
3. Start on an A1 (Aromatase Inhibitor) (how much and whats this med called)
4. Start on 1 ml of T-cypoinate by personal injection (100-200 mg/nl every week)
5. Start on an HCG
6. Give blood every 90 days

How does this sound? Missing anything?

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

Does anyone have any help for these questions? My insurance just called and said that they will no longer cover the Androgel. This is a great segway to talk to my doctor about injectables, but I don't know what to say. This is what I have so far:

"Hey doc, I would like to move to 100 (or 200) mg per week of testerone by self-injection. Can you please write me a prescirption for this?"

This should be covered by insurance, but if not, how much does it cost? Someone said that shots and Test should cost about $25 per month if not covered.

I appreciate all feedback.....Thanks.

 

[ws2006]

Sounds like a good testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) clinic protocol to me - unless you have a progressive doctor who is knowledgable in the field you will most likely be lucky to get 100mg test a week. I am guessing the board sponsor would be a good place to get a program like that started!

 

[Megatron28]

Does anyone have any help for these questions? My insurance just called and said that they will no longer cover the Androgel. This is a great segway to talk to my doctor about injectables, but I don't know what to say. This is what I have so far:

"Hey doc, I would like to move to 100 (or 200) mg per week of testerone by self-injection. Can you please write me a prescirption for this?"

This should be covered by insurance, but if not, how much does it cost? Someone said that shots and Test should cost about $25 per month if not covered.

I appreciate all feedback.....Thanks.

Just be straight. Tell him they won't cover androgel and you have heard very positive things about injecting test cyp. Tell him your research shows most guys start taking around 100mg per week and adjust as necessary from there. Tell him what you want and why. Make sure he knows you are trying to participate in your treatment and work with him. He should appreciate that.

 

[NateDEEzy]

First of all, let me say that kickboxing is the sport of the future ( Say Anything).

It is common for people starting androgel to have their T levels drop even lower in the following weeks. It turns off what little is left of the natural production you still had. But it hasn't had time yet to replace your T fully to normal levels. So in the begining you can actually drop further.

Most guys prefer to inject Testosterone Cypionate. It is easy to do yourself and it is cheaper. Best of all, it seems to be more potent and kicks in faster. That being said, it can still take some guys 3-4 weeks before they feel better, but your T levels are low so it should only take a week or two before you start noticing improvements.

So tell your doctor you want to switch to injections. And monitor your Estrodial (form of estrogen) with blood tests. Testosterone can metabolize (aromitisation) into estrogen and you will feel like crap again.

Do lots of reading of old posts on this testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) forum and ask questions. Lots of good into here!

Just outta curiosity, what's the difference between kickboxing and MMA, like the stuff on UFC? Not tryin to be a dick, I just don't know much about the stuff.

 

[Truushot]

Miller,

All of the info above is great info for sure. I think I can help you in the way of getting your doctor to put you on some cyp. I know this because I had to do the same exact thing! I am not joking either I had to literally say either you get me off this crap (andgrogel) or I will go and get my own stuff because I CAN'T LIVE THIS WAY ANYMORE! I said it just like that too. I explained how it was hurting my marriage and my job. You know what? She agreed and put me on 200 mg/w of cyp per week. She knew enough to understand that this wouldn't be for bodybuilding purpose it was for health reasons.

I can tell you the difference was almost immediate. (2.5 weeks) I am back to normal and things are good between my wife and I. If you don't feel confident in telling your doctor about what is going on candidly find a new doc. Remember they are here to help and the work for you.

Now I pay 10 bucks for a bottle of sandoz cyp and my insurance covers the pins and everything.

Good luck!

 

[tmckenzie]

I told my dr the exact same thing when axiron quit, she told me she did not know how to treat me, paid 50 bucks at an antiaging clinic and got shots, it has been 3 weeks, but I feel like crap.

 

[miller98b]

Well the saga continues as many of you are probably accustomed to hearing. I went to my GP and she said that testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is not a magic drug and that if my numbers are above 300, then we should look at other concerns like MANIC DEPRESSION OR SCHIZOPHRENIA (SP?)!!! Are you f-ing kidding me?!

Immediately schedule an endocrinology appointment with a top 10 rated doctor in my area. She said that she has not seen such low numbers in a man my age besides those that have had Testicular cancer and chemo. She immediately sent me for an MRI and blood work to check LH, FSH, prolactin and E2. Still waiting to hear from the doc on those results, but after looking at the MRI scan, there is a large white blob sitting right under my Pituitary gland. I'm freaked that it might be a tumor, but at least it would be an answer. I know I'm not a MRI tech, but its a free world so I did my own review We shall see what she says....

With regards to the Testim. I felt a series of three days where my mind was sharp, my energy was high and my anxiety and depression were non-existant. That usually tailored off by 4 or 5 in the afternoon and I was right back to being Mr. Lazy-fatty-Mcgrumpenpuss again. In addittion, I have put on 10 pounds in 2.5 weeks of Testim.....so now I'm everything above, but even fatter. I try to workout, but I tend to just go to bed or sit and watch tv. As much as I try to pump myself up like I did in the old days, I just don't seem to care about anything anymore.

Finally, I told the new doc that I was doing research, she rolled her eyes....why do they roll their eyes at people that take initiative regarding their health. I know the answer, but it drive me nuts......Anyways, I told her about aromatase inhibitors and the Testim aromatizing on the skin and so forth, and she told me that is quack science and very controversial. She said shots are painful and they cause rollercoaster effects.

So I know this is nothing new on this forum, but any thoughts are appreciated. Also, anyone who travelled a similar road and what changed and what were the effects?

 

[methos]

I did not follow the same path. But I did have similar symtoms. I had no luck with local doctors so I took the initiative and used a previous board sponsor. I get bloodwork done every 2 months. When I was first trying to get into balance I would get bloodwork if I felt great, or I would get bloods if I felt like shit. Then I could figure out the balance between total T, Free T, SHBG, Estrogens etc. I feel better than ever, libido is great, life is great. I have been lucky compared to other stories. I did crash my E2 a couple of times but have since learned that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is not needed, because it throws me in to a loop with aromitization. You need to get the results of your MRI before doing anything. After that, I just wanted to suggest that you keep a daily log about what you are taking, how you feel, etc. This helps out so much because if things get out of balance you can look back and figure things out easier.

If it were me, I would get results of MRI first. Then if things are clear talk to the current board sponsor. I don't use them but they seem very up to date and informed.

 

[SamSong]

. . . there is a large white blob sitting right under my Pituitary gland. I'm freaked that it might be a tumor, but at least it would be an answer. I know I'm not a MRI tech, but its a free world so I did my own review . . .

Relax! Zillions of people have these tumours fixed - if you do have one! And that would definitely explain things!

Anyway, have fun planning your lawsuit against the doctor who says that aromatisation from transdermal T is bro science.

And please keep us in the loop. Some people care about you here.

 

[SamSong]

I told my dr the exact same thing when axiron quit, she told me she did not know how to treat me, paid 50 bucks at an antiaging clinic and got shots, it has been 3 weeks, but I feel like crap.

Got shots? What shots? What is your blood work?

Tell us your stats, but post a new thread, don't hijack this one. Don't be shy.

 

[SamSong]

Miller, I just read it all again. If you're anything like me you'll convince yourself you have anything. So ignore some of what you believe.

Yeah, your T is shot, and it shouldn't be, so you might have a tumour. Fuckit. On the other hand you might be panicking.

From the first post to now it sounds like you have HIGH E.

One poster said that gel aromatises like crazy - it did with me. And now I can sense high E from day to day.

So I don't know what has caused it, but I'm pretty sure that's what is making you feel like shit.

 

[miller98b]

Thanks for all of the advice and empathy. This journey is nothing short of fantastical!!! It sucks to waste our ives fighting these battles, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. My endo has asked me to come in to review my results. That's unusual, so I imagine something is up, but I have also scheduled a visit to the testicle doctor to get my boys examined. Come to find out, my doctor didnt even test my E2 levels as I had specifically asked, but that doesnt suprise me much these days.

I'm still on the hormone rollercoaster! One minute I feel great, confident, low-to-no anxiety, creative and entrepreneurial in all aspects of life. The next minute I want to cry my eyes out and dissapear into my bed for eternity. I have a pre-med background and Kines degree, and I really think I could figure out the meds and dosing myself, but with a legal custody battle in the works, I guess I can't do anything to jeopardize that outcome.

I will touch base when I get some results worth posting, but 1.5 yrs in and still no good answers.

 

[miller98b]

Oh, something more to point out. Has anyone ever felt like they have aged 10-20 years in a matter of weeks. Over the past two weeks, everything has been sore and weak. My knees have always been strong and now they feel like they are both going to blow out any minute and standing on them for a few hours, leaves me icing, medicating and laying down. Another weird symptom, I have thrown my back out 7 or 8 times in the past month with no prior history of such a condition. I feel dizzy, dreamy, light headed and old. My heart has started to feel like its pumping funny and, as mentioned before, my blood pressure is back up after giving up caffeine, salt, carbs and other food. Lastly, my Sciatica nerve has been driving me nuts every day; once again with no previous condition. I know it sounds like I'm probably taking everything I feel as some weird new symptom, but its been no joke how decrepit I have been feeling. I know that's possibly the low-T, but I feel like I'm on one of those shows where they keep looking for the problem, don't find anything, tell the patient they are just complaining and then find somthing years later and go, "Oh, if you had just not eaten corn you would have been fine."

I think I'm using this forum as my own medical journal of sorts.

 

[NateDEEzy]

Let us know what your results are when you find out!! If they are still in the lower range, you should look into the most modern form of Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT), weekly or bi-weekly injections, HCG, and an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). Or at least injectable testosterone. It seems that gels and creams seem to produce many side effects/not optimal results do to poor absorption, and high aromatization; and the pains you mentioned above could very well be due to the aromatization of the cream.

 

[miller98b]

Let us know what your results are when you find out!! If they are still in the lower range, you should look into the most modern form of Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT), weekly or bi-weekly injections, HCG, and an Aromatase inhibitor (AI). Or at least injectable testosterone. It seems that gels and creams seem to produce many side effects/not optimal results do to poor absorption, and high aromatization; and the pains you mentioned above could very well be due to the aromatization of the cream.

Thanks Nate. At this very moment, I feel the worst I have ever felt in my entire life. Coffee has been going in me at record pace to just keep my eyes open at work after a full five days of heavy sleep. The Testim seemed to work for a week, but its effectiveness has tanked as I believe my natural production has gone to nil. Honestly, I don't know if my T has actually dropped, but it seems as though the life force has been sucked out of my body (not in the good way) and my situation seems to match so many other stories that I have read. At first, I imagined these individuals just had to get used to the medication, but when your T falls off the charts, you sure as hell know it. Whew!

I think there should be a new medical rule that states that you cannot treat someone for a condition unless you have gone through a similar situation. If a doctor understood how I feel at this time, he would be making midnight house calls to find a solution. I've left two messages for my doctor and have started looking online for possible self-medicating options; as I can't feel like this anymore. I'm so tired, I can't get any work done and I feel like I would stop breathing if I didn't remind myself to breathe-in and breathe-out. Everything seems to be operating at 10% speed and it feels like my bodies fuel, Testosterone, has completely run out and my car is broken down on the side of the road. God, this is unbearable!!

As my title suggests, My journey continues.

 

[miller98b]

Ok, so my GP doctor and endo are telling me to continue the Testim for 3-4 months and that test cyp injections will not help. I think its time to take things into my own hands and start looking at getting my own plan put into effect. After reading so many posts throughout the night, I'm more confused than ever. After trying to send a few PM's for one-on-one advice, and realizing that I don't have those privileges, I decided to post this to my thread. So, to get to my question, I now know that I need a "plan" but I've got no idea how to develop and execute on that plan.

Recap: I'm 31 yo 6'3 275 lbs (endo build) looking to get my T up from 193 and 6.1. I used to play football and used to lift extensively. My exercise used to consist of kickboxing and lifting for tone, but that has fallen to the wayside as I've been exhausted for so many months. Most of the time I dont give a crap about anything and I feel like an evil monster has sucked the life out of me.....Originally, I was interested in getting my T back up, but if I lost some weight and toned up a bit, that wouldn't be a bad thing. Here is what I was thinking to start:

- 200-500 T per week with self injection
- Some AI
-Anything else (remember, baby steps)

After I get that question answered....I guess I have to figure out where these magical leprechauns hide.

Thanks