My first cycle, 21 years old + ***** Labs
- Thread starter Testosterone123
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Testosterone123
New member
Btw check out this 14 year old kid thats already on roids, he looks fine to me. https://*********
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Milton
Administrator
Good, thats good, I though it was fast foods, fast snacks that are loaded with quick energy that makes you dependent on them. PrinceDianabol knows his stuff, pay him some mind.
PrinceDianabol
Well-known member
So you're not tracking your intake? It sounds like your diet does need work man. I highly recommend you start tracking your cals and look into more calorically dense foods if you're too full to eat more. Diet is very important... if you can't gain as a natty, you won't gain much on AAS and you sure as hell won't keep it. They don't make up for diet man. Another thing to consider.
Hahah that gave me some bad mental imagery... thanks mate
Edit: Just see that you posted your diet. That's a lot of cals for someone your size. Take the next few weeks to measure your gains. You want to weigh yourself first thing in the morning, after going to the toilet if you need to. Do this on the same day each week or the morning after your lowest carb day if you cycle macros. This will provide the least biased weight reading. Then you can judge how much your gaining week to week and adjust cals from there.
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Milton
Administrator
and do not add links that drive our members away from our forums please.
Lets keep it real for now and take one subject at a time. What is priority here is for you stay focused on getting big like you want to.
Testosterone123
New member
Yes, and I need AAS to do it in the time period I have; Multiple kids on my team are abusing prohormones but they aren't using a test base or PCT! Atleast I'm not one of those idiots.
Milton
Administrator
Is there no testing done in high schools these days?
PrinceDianabol
Well-known member
That is really disappointing man. One picture of a kid on gear justifies absolutely nothing. You don't understand how fucked up he is going to be. He will DEFINITELY be reliant on TRT for the rest of his life - he'll also never grow any taller and he will lack some serious brain development. And he's only 14..
Testosterone123
New member
I'm in college.
oldmusclemike
Well-known member
View attachment 563646
Ya know this is a picture of me 1 year ago and I was 64 years old. So not too bad for my age. Most people think wow he looks healthy. Ha just a picture. You have no idea what's going on inside me. Just like the pictures or young guys you think are ok.
I have 4 herniated disc , Hepatitis C, slight liver problems, two different mental disorders, have been on meds since 1975, bad rotary cuff, spinal fusion and the list goes on.
The only thing I am saying is you have no clue what problems I have by just looking at me. Most all my joints are fvcked up from lifting too heavy early on and that was when I was in my 30's. You show your age by saying things like Oh, he looks fine to me and you have no idea if he can even get a morning boner, much less a piece of ass and if his joints are any good.
Please you came for advice please take it and don't insult our vets or me at 65 years old.
Here's 35years old
View attachment 563647
I've seen the damage
Ya know this is a picture of me 1 year ago and I was 64 years old. So not too bad for my age. Most people think wow he looks healthy. Ha just a picture. You have no idea what's going on inside me. Just like the pictures or young guys you think are ok.
I have 4 herniated disc , Hepatitis C, slight liver problems, two different mental disorders, have been on meds since 1975, bad rotary cuff, spinal fusion and the list goes on.
The only thing I am saying is you have no clue what problems I have by just looking at me. Most all my joints are fvcked up from lifting too heavy early on and that was when I was in my 30's. You show your age by saying things like Oh, he looks fine to me and you have no idea if he can even get a morning boner, much less a piece of ass and if his joints are any good.
Please you came for advice please take it and don't insult our vets or me at 65 years old.
Here's 35years old
View attachment 563647
I've seen the damage
PrinceDianabol
Well-known member
OP, I managed to find those studies for you. Like I said, I could care less what you choose to do... just know what you're getting yourself into:
Is there any evidence for the recommendation to not cycle too young?
This question gets asked by young new guys constantly and its about time we provided some real evidence to back up our stance on not cycling before you reach your mid 20s.
First lets look at the physiological impact aas has if you cycle too early...
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2010-0435
"High-dose sex steroid treatment of boys does not affect their fatherhood or semen quality, as assessed after a mean follow-up of 21 years; however, serum testosterone levels are significantly reduced in androgen-treated tall men...
The treatment of tall stature is based on the understanding that exposure to gonadal steroids leads to epiphyseal fusion of the long bones during pubertal development."
"Leydig cell function was significantly affected by androgen treatment. In treated men, both serum testosterone and non-SHBG-bound testosterone levels were significantly reduced compared with untreated men. We hypothesize that the decreased T levels may be caused by reduced Leydig cell growth during puberty and suboptimal functioning of the Leydig cells in later life."
My interpretation
The group of guys in this study were treated back in the 60s & 70s with sustanon 250 for 1 1/2 years in order to stop them from getting too tall - this was seen as a bad thing back then.
They then did a follow up 21yrs later to see if there were any lasting side effects compared to base levels of untreated men.
The good news was that there was NO negative impact on fertility/sperm quality - this should calm those that fear that they wont be able to have children if they cycle. Although I should add that fertility issues to arise when women cycle but that's another post entirely.
The bad news is that serum T levels were SIGNIFICANTLY lowered for the guys treated with aas during their adolescence, it was still in the normal range but only just - the guys in this study will need to go on TRT at some point in their later years.
The study also shows that steroids are used to REDUCE height growth during puberty, this means that you can forget about getting any taller if you start cycling
The results are not conclusive, but do provide strong evidence for what most of the vets here already know -cycling too young increases the risk of needing TRT in the future because your interfering with your endocrine system before its finished developing.
It also shows that your growth plates will shut the minute you introduce endogenous hormones into your body - so if your still 5'7.
Is there any evidence for the recommendation to not cycle too young?
This question gets asked by young new guys constantly and its about time we provided some real evidence to back up our stance on not cycling before you reach your mid 20s.
First lets look at the physiological impact aas has if you cycle too early...
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2010-0435
"High-dose sex steroid treatment of boys does not affect their fatherhood or semen quality, as assessed after a mean follow-up of 21 years; however, serum testosterone levels are significantly reduced in androgen-treated tall men...
The treatment of tall stature is based on the understanding that exposure to gonadal steroids leads to epiphyseal fusion of the long bones during pubertal development."
"Leydig cell function was significantly affected by androgen treatment. In treated men, both serum testosterone and non-SHBG-bound testosterone levels were significantly reduced compared with untreated men. We hypothesize that the decreased T levels may be caused by reduced Leydig cell growth during puberty and suboptimal functioning of the Leydig cells in later life."
My interpretation
The group of guys in this study were treated back in the 60s & 70s with sustanon 250 for 1 1/2 years in order to stop them from getting too tall - this was seen as a bad thing back then.
They then did a follow up 21yrs later to see if there were any lasting side effects compared to base levels of untreated men.
The good news was that there was NO negative impact on fertility/sperm quality - this should calm those that fear that they wont be able to have children if they cycle. Although I should add that fertility issues to arise when women cycle but that's another post entirely.
The bad news is that serum T levels were SIGNIFICANTLY lowered for the guys treated with aas during their adolescence, it was still in the normal range but only just - the guys in this study will need to go on TRT at some point in their later years.
The study also shows that steroids are used to REDUCE height growth during puberty, this means that you can forget about getting any taller if you start cycling
The results are not conclusive, but do provide strong evidence for what most of the vets here already know -cycling too young increases the risk of needing TRT in the future because your interfering with your endocrine system before its finished developing.
It also shows that your growth plates will shut the minute you introduce endogenous hormones into your body - so if your still 5'7.
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PrinceDianabol
Well-known member
Is there any evidence for the recommendation to not cycle too young? Part 2
Ok this is a continuation of the same topic but instead of focusing on the implications for the endocrine system, I will be looking at what impact, if any, early steroid use has on brain development.
Let's start with some solid data...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23274699
"Studies in both humans and animal models indicate that AAS exposure during adolescence alters normal brain remodeling, including structural changes and neurotransmitter function... The evidence suggests that the use of AAS during this critical period of development may increase the risk for maladaptive behaviors along with neurological disorders."
"Specifically, pubertal AAS abuse may contribute to abnormal brain development, or at least alter the normal trajectory of brain development, resulting in increased vulnerability for psychopathological and disorders and maladaptive behaviors."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24841181#
"A growing translational literature suggests that adolescent exposure to anabolic-androgenic steroids (AASs) leads to increased aggression and impulsivity. However, little is known about the cognitive effects of AASs among AAS users or the differences between adolescent- and adult-onset users. Adolescent onset was associated with greater impulsivity and more acute sensitivity to AAS effects on attention. These preliminary findings suggest the possibility that acute AAS use is associated with some differences in inhibitory control and impulsivity and to a lesser degree, aggression. These effects may be more potent for those initiating AAS use in adolescence."
My Interpretation & personal views
Both of these are fairly recent studies providing an insight into the impact aas has neurologically & whether this impact is greater at a younger age.
The first study, which is free to read for everyone, highlights the many behavioural changes that could occur when you interfere with the natural stages of brain remodelling.
The second study is much more relevant since it makes a direct comparison between adolescent aas use vs adult aas use. Although this was a small base with only 11 participants on each side, the authors found clear differences from a behavioural & neurological perspective - with younger use associated with much more pronounced negative changes.
It is commonly accepted that the brain doesn't fully mature until the early to mid 20s.
Is their a direct study illustrating this? Not that I'm aware of but reading through any basic human biology book will give you a fundamental understanding that this is indeed the case.
Or, if your not the reading type, how many people do you know below the age of say...23-25...that are very mature & have excellent behavioural characteristics? Exactly
Humans don't grow in an EQUAL manner when it comes to physical & mental maturity - the brain tends to take a more years when compared to the body.
Now IMO, it seems like a very bad idea to introduce large supraphysiological dosages of aas during age-specific developmental periods.
Could it permanently alter the organization of the brain during this important developmental period? Honestly, we don't know but I tend to prefer being cautious when it comes to things like brain development.
To summarise this:
Does early aas use increase the risk of lowering your natural testosterone levels compared to cycling at a later stage? Yes.
Does early aas use increase the risk of develop behavioural & neurological disorders when compared to cycling at a later stage? Yes.
Is it worth risking your physical & mental development in order to cycle a few years earlier? No.
Ok this is a continuation of the same topic but instead of focusing on the implications for the endocrine system, I will be looking at what impact, if any, early steroid use has on brain development.
Let's start with some solid data...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23274699
"Studies in both humans and animal models indicate that AAS exposure during adolescence alters normal brain remodeling, including structural changes and neurotransmitter function... The evidence suggests that the use of AAS during this critical period of development may increase the risk for maladaptive behaviors along with neurological disorders."
"Specifically, pubertal AAS abuse may contribute to abnormal brain development, or at least alter the normal trajectory of brain development, resulting in increased vulnerability for psychopathological and disorders and maladaptive behaviors."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24841181#
"A growing translational literature suggests that adolescent exposure to anabolic-androgenic steroids (AASs) leads to increased aggression and impulsivity. However, little is known about the cognitive effects of AASs among AAS users or the differences between adolescent- and adult-onset users. Adolescent onset was associated with greater impulsivity and more acute sensitivity to AAS effects on attention. These preliminary findings suggest the possibility that acute AAS use is associated with some differences in inhibitory control and impulsivity and to a lesser degree, aggression. These effects may be more potent for those initiating AAS use in adolescence."
My Interpretation & personal views
Both of these are fairly recent studies providing an insight into the impact aas has neurologically & whether this impact is greater at a younger age.
The first study, which is free to read for everyone, highlights the many behavioural changes that could occur when you interfere with the natural stages of brain remodelling.
The second study is much more relevant since it makes a direct comparison between adolescent aas use vs adult aas use. Although this was a small base with only 11 participants on each side, the authors found clear differences from a behavioural & neurological perspective - with younger use associated with much more pronounced negative changes.
It is commonly accepted that the brain doesn't fully mature until the early to mid 20s.
Is their a direct study illustrating this? Not that I'm aware of but reading through any basic human biology book will give you a fundamental understanding that this is indeed the case.
Or, if your not the reading type, how many people do you know below the age of say...23-25...that are very mature & have excellent behavioural characteristics? Exactly
Humans don't grow in an EQUAL manner when it comes to physical & mental maturity - the brain tends to take a more years when compared to the body.
Now IMO, it seems like a very bad idea to introduce large supraphysiological dosages of aas during age-specific developmental periods.
Could it permanently alter the organization of the brain during this important developmental period? Honestly, we don't know but I tend to prefer being cautious when it comes to things like brain development.
To summarise this:
Does early aas use increase the risk of lowering your natural testosterone levels compared to cycling at a later stage? Yes.
Does early aas use increase the risk of develop behavioural & neurological disorders when compared to cycling at a later stage? Yes.
Is it worth risking your physical & mental development in order to cycle a few years earlier? No.
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PrinceDianabol
Well-known member
Since writing that post, the evidence has actually strengthened for the case of waiting until your at least 23-25 before using steroids.
Here is a recent study showing the clear impact steroids have on brain development:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25986964
"This multimodal magnetic resonance imaging study of the brain compared 10 male weightlifters reporting long-term AAS use with 10 age-matched weightlifters reporting no AAS exposure...
AAS users had larger right amygdala volumes than nonusers (P=0.002) and reduced rsFC between right amygdala and frontal, striatal, limbic, hippocampal, and visual cortical areas."
And another study showing that brain does indeed continue developing well into your early-mid 20s with an average cut off point of 25 (same age recommended by vets):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11698594
"In this study, we conducted detailed spatial and temporal analyses of growth and gray matter density at the cortical surface of the brain in a group of 35 normally developing children, adolescents, and young adults...
Fourteen children (7-11 years; mean age, 9.3 ± 1.3 years; 7 boys and 7 girls), 11 adolescents (12-16 years; mean age, 13.8 ± 1.6 years; 6 boys and 5 girls), and 10 young adults (23-30 years; mean age, 25.6 ± 2.0 years; 5 men and 5 women) were studied...
In this report...we have mapped the spatial distribution of late brain growth and demonstrate that it does indeed continue in the frontal and posterior temporal lobes during the postadolescent years regardless of whether individual differences in global brain size are controlled."
All credit goes to MrRippedZilla for finding those studies and writing the above posts.
Here is a recent study showing the clear impact steroids have on brain development:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25986964
"This multimodal magnetic resonance imaging study of the brain compared 10 male weightlifters reporting long-term AAS use with 10 age-matched weightlifters reporting no AAS exposure...
AAS users had larger right amygdala volumes than nonusers (P=0.002) and reduced rsFC between right amygdala and frontal, striatal, limbic, hippocampal, and visual cortical areas."
And another study showing that brain does indeed continue developing well into your early-mid 20s with an average cut off point of 25 (same age recommended by vets):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11698594
"In this study, we conducted detailed spatial and temporal analyses of growth and gray matter density at the cortical surface of the brain in a group of 35 normally developing children, adolescents, and young adults...
Fourteen children (7-11 years; mean age, 9.3 ± 1.3 years; 7 boys and 7 girls), 11 adolescents (12-16 years; mean age, 13.8 ± 1.6 years; 6 boys and 5 girls), and 10 young adults (23-30 years; mean age, 25.6 ± 2.0 years; 5 men and 5 women) were studied...
In this report...we have mapped the spatial distribution of late brain growth and demonstrate that it does indeed continue in the frontal and posterior temporal lobes during the postadolescent years regardless of whether individual differences in global brain size are controlled."
All credit goes to MrRippedZilla for finding those studies and writing the above posts.
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AlmightyZeus
New member
Listen bro.. Maybe if you don't listen to the vets you will listen to me.
I'm 20. I'm 6 weeks into my first cycle right now. I'm doing everything picture perfect from what these vets have said and read in the stickies for months. I've been training hard and dieting ever since I was 14.. People used to think I took gear back in HS all the time even parents and teachers. all I did was eat and train and thankfully I have great genetics.
I'm 5'8 206lbs.. Arms are 17" Chest 45" neck 17" ..Yeah I'm pretty big for my size..but I've always wanted to give AAS a try and I finally did.. Guess what? I've put on 15lbs.. I've leaned out too, cool... I look like a little monster. And now I think to myself? Was this extra size and a risk to my mental and cognitive development worth it? Hell no.. I should of waited another 3 years.. But I'm doing everything picture perfect.. And hopefully after this PCT I'll recover fine.. But now 5 weeks in I've finally came to the conclusion it's better to wait a few years, and I'm telling this to all my friends that were considering it that are around my age. And NOT take the risk. You have plenty of growing to do naturally still.. Wait a few years. Make some natural gains.. Then reconsider. Listen to these guy and me, and wait.
I'm 20. I'm 6 weeks into my first cycle right now. I'm doing everything picture perfect from what these vets have said and read in the stickies for months. I've been training hard and dieting ever since I was 14.. People used to think I took gear back in HS all the time even parents and teachers. all I did was eat and train and thankfully I have great genetics.
I'm 5'8 206lbs.. Arms are 17" Chest 45" neck 17" ..Yeah I'm pretty big for my size..but I've always wanted to give AAS a try and I finally did.. Guess what? I've put on 15lbs.. I've leaned out too, cool... I look like a little monster. And now I think to myself? Was this extra size and a risk to my mental and cognitive development worth it? Hell no.. I should of waited another 3 years.. But I'm doing everything picture perfect.. And hopefully after this PCT I'll recover fine.. But now 5 weeks in I've finally came to the conclusion it's better to wait a few years, and I'm telling this to all my friends that were considering it that are around my age. And NOT take the risk. You have plenty of growing to do naturally still.. Wait a few years. Make some natural gains.. Then reconsider. Listen to these guy and me, and wait.
halfwit
I like turtles.
I can't beat the amazing patience and spreading of knowledge that Prince has done by bringing Zilla's posts back to life (they SHOULD be stickied imo), so I'm just going to ask one simple question.
I have a close friend that after breaking up with his fiance, got extremely drunk, hopped on his race bike, and took a stump on head-first at about 70mph.
He walked away with torn clothing, some crazy tickets, and a few bruises. No helmet, no protective gear, and drunk. The laws of physics we know state very clearly that he should have DIED.
Yet, he walked away.
Does this mean that if I were to get my big ass up on a sport bike, get liquored to the gills, and go head on into an object at a ridiculous speed that I too will walk away?
Would you?
You're taking a risk with things you clearly have no concept of. I know at 21 we still think we're invincible, I know I did. However, there are ALWAYS consequences for our actions, many of which can last for the rest of our lives. Mike has graciously showed us how this is true, so it would be quite ignorant to just brush the words of wisdom to the side.
Oh, they test for AAS in college sports btw. I sure hope you're prepared to deal with those potential consequences too, as AAS use is seen as no different than than heroin to the board that yanks financial aid from you FOREVER.
Just some food for thought.
My .02c
oldmusclemike
Well-known member
This forum is just amazing in it's continuing strive to learn more, educate more and promote the safest way to use and not abuse AAS in our society.
This thread should become one of our stickys for all to learn and the young to take heed.
As I already mentioned OP you came and asked and we answered and we advised. I hope you show some maturity and use the wisdom these guys have shared.
The definition of wisdom to me is experience plus knowledge . This is what you found here. We have read we have experienced and we share and we listen. Your missing some education but more over you have NO experience. Good Luck
This thread should become one of our stickys for all to learn and the young to take heed.
As I already mentioned OP you came and asked and we answered and we advised. I hope you show some maturity and use the wisdom these guys have shared.
The definition of wisdom to me is experience plus knowledge . This is what you found here. We have read we have experienced and we share and we listen. Your missing some education but more over you have NO experience. Good Luck
maurij1
New member
Op, if you're doing 5/3/1 and eating right you will get strong as hell. I started 5/3/1 in my early 40's and made great strength gains all while natty. I didn't gain a lot of size but my goal was the same as yours..strength. Also throw in some heavy hang cleans, nothing builds explosive power like hang cleans!
Halfwit...do they even make a sport bike big enough for you??
Halfwit...do they even make a sport bike big enough for you??
halfwit
I like turtles.
Op, if you're doing 5/3/1 and eating right you will get strong as hell. I started 5/3/1 in my early 40's and made great strength gains all while natty. I didn't gain a lot of size but my goal was the same as yours..strength. Also throw in some heavy hang cleans, nothing builds explosive power like hang cleans!
Halfwit...do they even make a sport bike big enough for you??
I'm honestly terrified of them, but I have sat on a 1200cc beast that is a Kawasaki ZX-14R. I didn't take it very far, but I have no doubts that it could easily handle my weight haha.
