Need help with cycle & PCT!

[Mindtempest]

Hello I am 18 years old with 4 years of training experience, 1½ being serious with dieting, special-constructed programs and monitoring my progress all along.
I have now found that I want more than just the ordinary so I wish to initiate my first cycle starting from June. I have been researching a lot and located what I would call the "ideal" cycle + post cycle therapy (pct) for me.

Now what I want to know is whether or not the information I have found is correct so here goes:
I found the cycle on this site:

Then I found this post
"Swales protocol calls for 250-500iu 2-3x per week during cycle... BUT i've found this stops working after a while, and you'll need higher and higher doses to see any effect so i never use it throughout my cycle, but instead use it in bursts one in the middle of the cycle and one at the end. On a 12 week cycle i start using HCG and aromasin on week 11 for three weeks taking me to the start of nolva therapy. I carry on the aromasin for a few weeks. This way you can use HCG at a low dose because you're very sensitive to it, i go with 250iu 3x week. I'll get flamed for saying this, but using HCG all the way through a cycle is not a good idea, and Swales protocol has some flaws in it too." - ************/forums/showthread.php?50850-aromasin-during-cycle-and-post cycle therapy (pct)

Then I went on here (articles.muscletalk.co.uk/clomid-hcg.aspx) in the 'HCG Dosage'-section I found an allegement that HCG should be ended 6-7 clear days before initiation of Nolva for post cycle therapy (pct).

My cycle looking like this from the reading I've done:

Sustanon 500mg EW duration 0-56 (in days)
Deca durabolin 400mg EW 0-56
Dbol 40mg ED 0-42
HCG 500-1000iu ED 56-70
Aromasin 20-25mg ED 56-86
Nolvadex 20mg ED 56-101
+ 1000mg Vitamin E on HCG-injection days


I'm insecure whether Nolvadex should be run for the duration of 45 days as it is here, or shorter amount of time?
I found the post cycle therapy (pct) with Nolva-duration 45 days here: (Danish forum) musclezone.dk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=18
but most important is
"1-16: 2500iu hCG EOD (eller) 2000iu hCG E3D***.
1-30: 20-25mg Aromasin ED (eller) 50mg Clomid morgen og 50mg Clomid aften ED
1-45: 20mg Nolvadex ED
+ 1000mg E vitamin på hCG injekt-dage."

Am I anywhere close to something sane or am I totally off-grid, any response/suggestion is welcome

 

[DADAWG]

welcome to ology

thats a bad cycle and bad pct.

1st cycle should be test only
sustanon and deca both are much better suited for longer cycles , 12 weeks mininum.
the wait from last injection of sustanon or deca until starting pct is 3 weeks.

2 schools of thought on hcg and i cant say for sure which is best but eiethr way stop hcg before pct starts.
use clomid at 50 mg a day for 3-4 weeks during pct.

 

[Mindtempest]

welcome to ology

thats a bad cycle and bad post cycle therapy (pct).

1st cycle should be test only
sustanon and deca both are much better suited for longer cycles , 12 weeks mininum.
the wait from last injection of sustanon or deca until starting post cycle therapy (pct) is 3 weeks.

2 schools of thought on hcg and i cant say for sure which is best but eiethr way stop hcg before post cycle therapy (pct) starts.
use clomid at 50 mg a day for 3-4 weeks during post cycle therapy (pct).

Thanks for the welcome first of all

Now something you wrote made me wonder... I just read about sustanon possibly not being the best mixture since it is consisting of four different testosterone esters.

But for example if I did:
Test E 500mg ew 12 weeks
Deca Durabolin 400mg ew 12 weeks
Dbol 40mgs ed 6 weeks
Would that also work for a beginner cycle or would you suggest Test E 500mg ew 12 weeks ONLY?
and in any case I realized that HCG-injection had to overlap the cycle to some point and still be cleared 2 weeks prior to AAS-clearance which would be in week 15
So HCG through week 11-13 with 500/1000iu ed? (will adjust according to need)
Aromasin week 12-16 20/25mg ed? (will also adjust it according to needs, gains, maintaining mass etc)
Nolvadex week 16-21 20mg ed
+ 1000mg Vitamin E on HCG-injection days.
Thanks for the quick response
I very much appreciate it considering what a ambivalent subject it is, so many subjective statements making it hard to distinguish facts from broscience these days.

 

[Bantrel]

First I would say at 18 you shouldn't even be considering AAS, also like dadawg said first cycles should be test only, you start getting bad sides it's hard to tell which one is causing it if you've never cycled before

 

[mlupi319]

1. Read the sticky threads/articles at the top of this forum that have the words "first cycle" and/or "pct" in them

2. Repeat #1

 

[Mindtempest]

1. Read the sticky threads/articles at the top of this forum that have the words "first cycle" and/or "post cycle therapy (pct)" in them

2. Repeat #1

Awesome! I had completely missed that one, how silly of me

This actually answered all my questions except for three that still boggle my mind.
1: Does the graph in heavyiron's "first cycle-post cycle therapy (pct)" with test esters saying '100mg of steroid as' mean that testosterone propionate is more concentrated than testosterone enanthate and does this mean that there would be anything extra to come for by using propionate over enanthate?
2: Is it really advisable to run Aromasin + HCG for 12 weeks straight and still use it for post cycle therapy (pct)?
3: I have read that testosterone enanthate esters clear in 2 weeks, so basically when ending the cycle I would also be ending HCG because then when I "officially" initiate my post cycle therapy (pct) I will be clean of AAS's and will be 14 days from my last HCG shot?

 

[mlupi319]

Now those are some good questions!!

1. yes test prop is slightly stronger than enanthate but I wouldn't get caught up in that. Test E only is usually a great first cycle because you do not have to pin as frequent as test prop and test prop can hurt more after injections.

2. yes it is advisable that you dose hcg and aromasin throughout your cycle at a low dose.
Aromasin 5-10mg/day and hcg at 150-200iu EOD. Continue aromasin during post cycle therapy (pct) tapering off the dosage. Do not use hcg during post cycle therapy (pct) (Stop hcg use ~7days before you start post cycle therapy (pct))

3. Generally test e clears in ~16 days- Start post cycle therapy (pct) then.

 

[Mindtempest]

Now those are some good questions!!

1. yes test prop is slightly stronger than enanthate but I wouldn't get caught up in that. Test E only is usually a great first cycle because you do not have to pin as frequent as test prop and test prop can hurt more after injections.

2. yes it is advisable that you dose hcg and aromasin throughout your cycle at a low dose.
Aromasin 5-10mg/day and hcg at 150-200iu EOD. Continue aromasin during pct tapering off the dosage. Do not use hcg during pct (Stop hcg use ~7days before you start pct)

3. Generally test e clears in ~16 days- Start pct then.

I found this ideal way of cycling a beginner's cycle with test E under "First Cycle and PCT":
Sunday 10mg Aromasin
Monday 10mg Aromasin/250iu HCG
Tuesday 10mg Aromasin/300mg enanthate
Wednesday 10mg Aromasin
Thursday 10mg Aromasin
Friday 10mg Aromasin/250iu HCG
Saturday 10mg Aromasin/300mg enanthate
For 12 weeks

and then this in "Standard PCT's"

#2 Use 500iu's a week of HCG for your entire cycle. Then use 500iu's every day for the 10 days leading up to 4 days before SERM treatment.
12 weeks + 12 days (for 4 days before first SERM in this case clomid 16 days overall for test E to clear my system)

So instead of 500iu twice a week I made it 250iu, and instead of 7 days as you suggested it will be 4 days before PCT
PCT being:

4 weeks of PCT
100/100/100/50 clomid (50mg taken twice per day weeks 1-3 after aas ester clears)

20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg Aromasin (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily in week 4)

3g Vit C every day split in 3 doses

10g creatine daily

 

[mlupi319]

Yup. There's no "one size fits all" cycle. I shared basically what I'm going to do for my next cycle (except use letro instead of aromasin) But what you just proposed works fine as well.

 

[Mindtempest]

Thanks a bunch for the help all of you guys I'll try this 12-week test E starting June then, looking forward to it already. Hopefully I'll get some decent gains to show for it.

 

[OnlyTheStrongSurvive]

18 years old doing a cycle? Your natty test is so high I wouldn't even mess with aas bro

 

[Mindtempest]

18 years old doing a cycle? Your natty test is so high I wouldn't even mess with aas bro

Are you serious though?
Lee Priest did it from the age of 13
Alexey Lesukov also around the age 13-14
Victor Richards started by the age of 16-17
Justin Young started too in his teens.
All of these above displayed great results from starting their first cycle in their early teen years, so I do certainly not think 18 is too early, at most I think it is close to being too late to start your first cycle and I am sad that I have not started earlier but I've not had the right foundation up until now.

 

[Kane_Red_Machine]

Are you serious though?
Lee Priest did it from the age of 13
Alexey Lesukov also around the age 13-14
Victor Richards started by the age of 16-17
Justin Young started too in his teens.
All of these above displayed great results from starting their first cycle in their early teen years, so I do certainly not think 18 is too early, at most I think it is close to being too late to start your first cycle and I am sad that I have not started earlier but I've not had the right foundation up until now.

i don't know how it happens than Dadawg gave you his advice... ther's not even your states... you will use AAS... at 18 yearsold... and you refer to persons which became as exception in BB... ok. good luck...

 

[DADAWG]

Are you serious though?
Lee Priest did it from the age of 13
Alexey Lesukov also around the age 13-14
Victor Richards started by the age of 16-17
Justin Young started too in his teens.
All of these above displayed great results from starting their first cycle in their early teen years, so I do certainly not think 18 is too early, at most I think it is close to being too late to start your first cycle and I am sad that I have not started earlier but I've not had the right foundation up until now.

the only one of those ive stood beside is lee priest and and as i looked down at at him i guessed hen had started steroids ar to young of a age and closed his growth plates lol .

you can justify and rationilize all you want but your steroid knowledge is AWFULL . your not old enough to use because you will more than likely close your growth plates and stunt any further growth in height. and theres also a maturity factor , which is important and you do NOT appear to be mature enough.

 

[Mindtempest]

My growth? I've not been growing in height for two years now. I'm at a solid 6'0"/181cm, you know no I may not be mature enough in your eyes to start a cycle but whoever was mature enough for a cycle? Cycles are not to be taken lightly and from the looks of your response you don't, that is good. Judging my entire livelihood and maturity-level on these prior 6 posts however is immature in itself and a display of lacking knowledge, which just comes to be sad... You guys make it all sound like this is a no-go however people all over the world have been doing cycles for many decades now, are we not living in an age of innovation? New things being generated all the time, and I have a vision, however to realize this vision I need to go that extra mile. So who are you to tell me when I feel ready to experiment with my own body? Yeah, yeah we have physiological reasons, etc but doing a cycle for the good only in itself is paradoxal. There may concur side-effects that I personally, will have to deal with for their duration. But personally I don't think I value others to tell me what to do or not to do with my OWN body.
I know most of you are probably sick of people doing a cycle then coming back to cry of whatever side-effects they may have substained, I tell you now, I myself will take full responsibility for this cycle and I promise I will not come back to "whine" on this forum if something goes awry. This being said I do not expect for you to respect my decision but at the very least understand this choice of mine, and the fact that none of you will be able to talk me out of it.
Once again thanks for the help I appreciate it but I need to see the results of a cycle like this for myself to determine whether my genetics are good or maybe even great for this or not. I already now have an idea looking back on my natural training experience, but I see so many more opportunities if I can make this cycling thing here work for me. And that is basically what this was always about, me trying a cycle to conceptualize the proportion of these aas's and their effect on me.
How will I ever know if I could be the next exception in BB if I never take a go at it?
I can live with the side-effects from steroids but I do not think I would be able to enjoy life to its fullest if I had to live the rest of my life being in doubt whether I chose right or wrong by not starting early enough on my first cycle.
My mind was already made up before I came to visit this forum.

 

[pirovoliko]

People here are only trying to help you. No one is saying dont do it...they are saying you have plenty of time to do it.

regardless of what you think, taking AAS should not be refered to as "this cycling thing". If you are going to do this, do not make the mistake of trivializing whats ahead. Be certain and be as educated as you can be, because the negative effects can be severe and long lasting.

Good luck.

 

[tod36]

My growth? I've not been growing in height for two years now. I'm at a solid 6'0"/181cm, you know no I may not be mature enough in your eyes to start a cycle but whoever was mature enough for a cycle? Cycles are not to be taken lightly and from the looks of your response you don't, that is good. Judging my entire livelihood and maturity-level on these prior 6 posts however is immature in itself and a display of lacking knowledge, which just comes to be sad... You guys make it all sound like this is a no-go however people all over the world have been doing cycles for many decades now, are we not living in an age of innovation? New things being generated all the time, and I have a vision, however to realize this vision I need to go that extra mile. So who are you to tell me when I feel ready to experiment with my own body? Yeah, yeah we have physiological reasons, etc but doing a cycle for the good only in itself is paradoxal. There may concur side-effects that I personally, will have to deal with for their duration. But personally I don't think I value others to tell me what to do or not to do with my OWN body.
I know most of you are probably sick of people doing a cycle then coming back to cry of whatever side-effects they may have substained, I tell you now, I myself will take full responsibility for this cycle and I promise I will not come back to "whine" on this forum if something goes awry. This being said I do not expect for you to respect my decision but at the very least understand this choice of mine, and the fact that none of you will be able to talk me out of it.
Once again thanks for the help I appreciate it but I need to see the results of a cycle like this for myself to determine whether my genetics are good or maybe even great for this or not. I already now have an idea looking back on my natural training experience, but I see so many more opportunities if I can make this cycling thing here work for me. And that is basically what this was always about, me trying a cycle to conceptualize the proportion of these aas's and their effect on me.
How will I ever know if I could be the next exception in BB if I never take a go at it?
I can live with the side-effects from steroids but I do not think I would be able to enjoy life to its fullest if I had to live the rest of my life being in doubt whether I chose right or wrong by not starting early enough on my first cycle.
My mind was already made up before I came to visit this forum.

Best think you could do if bad sides happen is come here and talk about it. This way people can read and learn.

If only everyone who had sides came and talked about it maybe more people would think twice about it.

My mind was made up too when I came here first. I wanted DBol/Test E/Deca. I put a bunch of hours into reading and understanding different types of AAS, PCT, Aromatase inhibitor (AI), SERM, cycle lenght, dosages and so many things since then and decided to drop Deca for first cycle.

First I'll see how my body react to Test E and the pinning. And only then will I be able to add deca/tren whatever else I want to stack(IF I still want). You're talking as if this cycle would make or break your career into BB.

You would not lose that much time going with a simpler and safer cycle.

Not sure if the guy is legit but he's under 90kg and went with Test/Deca/DBol for first cycle:

~~~Log of my First cycle Test + Deca + Dbol ~~~

 

[OnlyTheStrongSurvive]

Are you serious though?
Lee Priest did it from the age of 13
Alexey Lesukov also around the age 13-14
Victor Richards started by the age of 16-17
Justin Young started too in his teens.
All of these above displayed great results from starting their first cycle in their early teen years, so I do certainly not think 18 is too early, at most I think it is close to being too late to start your first cycle and I am sad that I have not started earlier but I've not had the right foundation up until now.

Oh my bad then.. If that's the way you see it your 4-5 years late already your better load up. Good luck to you my friend.. I also guarantee you don't have the work ethic knowledge or diet that those bb have.. Also remember that there are very few aas side effects that are short term compared to the long term that if done wrong could happen and you not even know until 20 years later. Just looking out for you bro like the others on here. Knowledge is power