Post Competition Therapy (PCT) for natural bodybuilders: can it be done?

[Mrrippedzilla]

I have been investigating whether its possible to create some sort of PCT for natural bodybuilders to allow them to stay at a low bf% without the disadvantages associated with it.

This study highlights the problem pretty well:

Natural bodybuilding competitio... [Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

In that study they monitored a natural bodybuilder for 6 months during his contest prep.

Here are the standout results:

Heart rate decreased from 53 to 27 beats/min
Blood Pressure dropped from 132/69 to 104/56 mmHg
Body fat percentage dropped from 14.8% to 4.5%
Testosterone decline from 9.22 to 2.27ng/mL

These results were accompanied by lower t4 to t3 conversion, leptin downregulation, increased insulin sensitivity, increased cortisol and decreased red blood cell count.


So I thought this would be the perfect community to ask for opinions on how these markers can be restored to normal WITHOUT having to reverse diet and gain weight back?

I'm look for sufficient information on this so that I can experiment on myself as well as some clients who volunteered to be my guinea pigs lol.
All opinions are welcome but please remember that these guys are not interested in AAS...yet

 

[RamboTheDog]

I have been investigating whether its possible to create some sort of PCT for natural bodybuilders to allow them to stay at a low bf% without the disadvantages associated with it.

This study highlights the problem pretty well:

Natural bodybuilding competitio... [Int J Sports Physiol Perform. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

In that study they monitored a natural bodybuilder for 6 months during his contest prep.

Here are the standout results:

Heart rate decreased from 53 to 27 beats/min
Blood Pressure dropped from 132/69 to 104/56 mmHg
Body fat percentage dropped from 14.8% to 4.5%
Testosterone decline from 9.22 to 2.27ng/mL

These results were accompanied by lower t4 to t3 conversion, leptin downregulation, increased insulin sensitivity, as well as a host of other problematic hormone changes.


So I thought this would be the perfect community to ask for opinions on how these markers can be restored to normal WITHOUT having to reverse diet and gain weight back?

I'm look for sufficient information on this so that I can experiment on myself as well as some clients who volunteered to be my guinea pigs lol.
All opinions are welcome but please remember that these guys are not interested in AAS...yet

If you are that naive to believe that there are known pro athletes that are natural in any sports then be my guest and ask this guy how he does it

Name: Ulysses Jr

http://theshreddedlifestyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Ulisses-Jr..jpg

good luck bro one day u'll realize that even natural bodybuilding competitions, even olympic sports, even bike runners, even gymnastic athletes use some kind of perfomancer enhancer drug but i wont be the one to convince you

Edit: Forgot to answer, im not a doctor or anything but i do know that some hormones like testosterone require fats to work in your body so i think its kinda hard to keep that low bodyfat with normal hormone levels and healthy being natural... Unless you have godly genetics like this guy in my gym who has had 5% bodyfat and same body (not huge but strong enough) for the past 6 years eating crap foot (i have seen it) all year long...

Its mostly about genetics, some people's bodies can keep bodyfat as low as 5% and keep functioning healthy while eating a lot of shit and not gaining any fat while others cant :/

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Yea...I'm a natural bodybuilding coach, so I know for a FACT that there are natural bb's - I'll ignore the first half of your answer.

If there are ways of maintaining muscle even when your past your genetic limit, there must be ways of maintaining permanently low bf%.
This applies to everyone, I'm not buying the "my genetics wont let me stay at a low bf" crap.

I'm sure I know the answer to my own question, I just cant quite put my finger on it so hoping a few opinions would trigger my memory into action.

 

[PrinceDianabol]

I would think a low dose clomid or torem protocol would keep the test up to decent physiological levels. Perhaps some sort of caffeine or similar vassoconstrictor supplement to keep the blood pressure and heart rate up too? Just my thoughts.. Thats all I can think of.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Thank you bro, thats the sort of answer I am looking for

My research came out with nolva to increase test but it reduces IGF-1 (which will already be low in these groups).

Clomid & torem are good suggestions - I wonder if the low thyroid/insulin/leptin/other hormones would reduce the effectiveness of these? Or would they, by increasing test, also increase some other important hormones?

Again I'm just typing what's going through my head right now lol

 

[RamboTheDog]

Yea...I'm a natural bodybuilding coach, so I know for a FACT that there are natural bb's - I'll ignore the first half of your answer.

If there are ways of maintaining muscle even when your past your genetic limit, there must be ways of maintaining permanently low bf%.
This applies to everyone, I'm not buying the "my genetics wont let me stay at a low bf" crap.

I'm sure I know the answer to my own question, I just cant quite put my finger on it so hoping a few opinions would trigger my memory into action.

So you think Ulysses Jr is natural?


And i never said genetics wont let you.. all i said is that there are some people who naturally have 5% bodyfat with paper thin skin with no effort at all.. no diet n shit while others do huge effort and not get near thatt...

Some peoples body are able to maintain that with a lot more ease but genetics aside my best guess would be to not 0 the fat in the dieting to keep the hormones in normal levels but in reality its like i was saying about genetics.. I for am able to keep my bodyfat as low as 8% with not much effort just eating lots of fat and proteins and low carbs while other dudes keep their bodyfat low eating low fats, low carbs and high protein or low fats, medium carbs and normal protein i dont know..

Keeping someone naturally with very low bodyfat is very hard and requires specific diet that is made for that person's body so i suggest you cut your athlete down to 4-5% then prepare a few diets that you think could work on keeping him with low bodyfat and keep him on each diet for like a small period of time of 3 weeks or something and meanwhile you measure his bodyfat, weight and do bloodwork before and after each diet to see how it is going until you find the right one...

Something i like to do when keeping my bodyfat low or dieting down is 1 trash meal.. NOT TRASH DAY.. just 1 meal, like 2000kcal in one sitting just to give you body a little shock when its starting to get used to the diet and slow down the metabolism.. not even sure if its that good of a thing but lol...

Then you cut down Mr Wonderborg down to 4-5% Bodyfat and give him a diet lets say with

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Ulysses isn't my client, so its irrelevant to me whether hes natural/not.

Lol dude I appreciate your effort, but trust me when I say this: I dont need to be educated on diet
Refeeds, breaks, cycling, reverse dieting etc is not news to me.

I'm looking for compounds that can give them time to adjust to the low bf% in order to create a new settling point.
For example: T3 at a low dose would help to bring things to normal, dopamine agonists would influence caloric partioning & leptin signals to the brain, etc.

 

[STAUNCHED427]

Just my 2c, but once you start taking things you no longer become natural as you are using a substance to assist or enhance... Completely rids of the purpose of natural bodybuilding which for the most part is bullshit IMO and it does not appeal to me in any way shape or form. If I was to rec. anything though it would be a SERM, Toremifene would be my first choice and/or low dose exemestane. Prami yes, I find it curbs my appetite however the mood boost and leaning effect many experience from it could be beneficial also.

But would you really consider someone using Toremifene, Exemstane and Prami to be natural? Nope, not in my eyes.

I am not one for natural bodybuilding, I like to call it fitness/physique modelling at best. AAS are a key element in bodybuilding.

Again, my 2c, nothing rude intended

 

[Pacific Rim]

These individuals would not be considered natural if they used any sort of pharmaceutical compounds, even after a competition.

You can boost your T4/T3, testosterone...naturally by eating, but you're going to have to put on a little body fat. Walking around like you are contest ready is impossible, even for professionals who admit to using.

It's worth the discussion, but is it really worth being the guinea pig?

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Just my 2c, but once you start taking things you no longer become natural as you are using a substance to assist or enhance... Completely rids of the purpose of natural bodybuilding which for the most part is bullshit IMO and it does not appeal to me in any way shape or form. If I was to rec. anything though it would be a SERM, Toremifene would be my first choice and/or low dose exemestane. Prami yes, I find it curbs my appetite however the mood boost and leaning effect many experience from it could be beneficial also.

But would you really consider someone using Toremifene, Exemstane and Prami to be natural? Nope, not in my eyes.

I am not one for natural bodybuilding, I like to call it fitness/physique modelling at best. AAS are a key element in bodybuilding.

Again, my 2c, nothing rude intended

Good post

I dont want to get into a debate about what is/isn't natural - plenty of those over at bb.com.

I think the rise of natural bodybuilding is a good thing because it encourages kids to develop good diet/training habits rather than jump on AAS way too early (something we moan about on here constantly).

Your right that its a more, dare I say, "aesthetic" look but the physiques these guys achieve has mass appeal and surely anything that encourages our obese society to eat well & train is a good thing?

The compounds are exactly what I was looking for - helping the body recover without sacrificing composition.
Knowledgeable as always dude.

These individuals would not be considered natural if they used any sort of pharmaceutical compounds, even after a competition.

You can boost your T4/T3, testosterone...naturally by eating, but you're going to have to put on a little body fat. Walking around like you are contest ready is impossible, even for professionals who admit to using.

It's worth the discussion, but is it really worth being the guinea pig?

The compunds we are discussing are used to recover up to natural levels - not higher.

Im positive it can be achieved without having to add calories, its just a matter of creating the right protocol, with the right compounds and the right dosage

 

[PrinceDianabol]

I wouldnt consider Serm use to be unnatural. All your doing is stimulating your own natural production. Using T3 though I'd say wouldnt be natural... But over the counter medications doesn't count as performance enhancing drugs in my opinion. And its not like your using them to get to supraphysiological levels... Ripped is just looking for a way to maintain normal natural levels of these hormones. Unless you have hormones in the supraphysiological range I believe you could truthfully tell anyone you are completely natural.

 

[STAUNCHED427]

I think the rise of natural bodybuilding is a good thing because it encourages kids to develop good diet/training habits rather than jump on AAS way too early (something we moan about on here constantly).

Your right that its a more, dare I say, "aesthetic" look but the physiques these guys achieve has mass appeal and surely anything that encourages our obese society to eat well & train is a good thing?

That is true, I agree. Sooner or later people new to bodybuilding do realise that it takes AAS to reach certain physiques, however it is best that they don't find out about it until they have already built a foundation of muscle and idea of diet and training (which is the case for a lot of people, myself included).

The compunds we are discussing are used to recover up to natural levels - not higher.

Im positive it can be achieved without having to add calories, its just a matter of creating the right protocol, with the right compounds and the right dosage

I can sort of see where you are coming from in regards to the intent of the original question, it's a bit of a grey area really, I mean using a SERM after competition in the interest of health to bring back testosterone levels after they have been dumped due to the stress of competing isn't really enhancing. However if you mean to be using these compounds leading up to or for the comp then that I disagree with as it blows the whole purpose of natural out the water.

Ok, yeah you are running on your own natural production, but you are at an advantage compared to everyone else, hence you are technically cheating.

 

[bigben66]

Do you consider Ephedrine to be unnatural?

It's banned in some countries but not in others... therefore it would depend where the natural bodybuilder lived and competed...

Ephedrine is a proven fat-loss compound that doesn't lower, in fact increases metabolism.. as you already know.

The question is: is it natural or not?

 

[STAUNCHED427]

You make a good point, BigBen...

I personally don't classify Ephedrine as something that would give you a label of being unnatural. AAS/Prohormones ofcourse...

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

Using T3 though I'd say wouldnt be natural... But over the counter medications doesn't count as performance enhancing

Your overall view is the same as mine, but I would include t3 as part of OTC medications to get you back to normal levels.
I guarantee you that if a doctor saw the thyroid levels of natural bodybuilders, he wouldn't hesitate to prescribe cytomel/thyroxine. Again, as you said yourself, its about getting back into the "normal" range and no higher.

I can sort of see where you are coming from in regards to the intent of the original question, it's a bit of a grey area really, I mean using a SERM after competition in the interest of health to bring back testosterone levels after they have been dumped due to the stress of competing isn't really enhancing. However if you mean to be using these compounds leading up to or for the comp then that I disagree with as it blows the whole purpose of natural out the water.

Ok, yeah you are running on your own natural production, but you are at an advantage compared to everyone else, hence you are technically cheating.

Agree with all of this.
My protocol will be designed for physiological recovery - maintaining the physique you achieved naturally for as long as you want without sacrificing your health.

Do you consider Ephedrine to be unnatural?

The question is: is it natural or not?

In terms of respected competitions, ephedrine is illegal for naturals.
In terms of what the general public consider natural, I agree with staunched - as long as you haven't used AAS/prohormones, you can get away with calling yourself natural.

 

[bigben66]

Good debate guys... all good stuff this

 

[cootermcgraw]

I would think a low dose clomid or torem protocol would keep the test up to decent physiological levels. Perhaps some sort of caffeine or similar vassoconstrictor supplement to keep the blood pressure and heart rate up too? Just my thoughts.. Thats all I can think of.

Uh oh but once he takes these drugs he's not considered natty anymore

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

I think I should address why its not really possible to maintain contest shape year round for naturals simply through diet changes.

Some guys will probably say "its all about calories in vs calories out, so if they eat at their new maintenance then they will stay at the same bf% right?"
Yes they will stay at the same bf%, but there test levels wont recover (which, in the long run could lead to hypogonadism), thyroid levels will not recover (which could lead to hypothyroidism) and fatigue along with mood disturbances will remain very high.

Basically, without the right compounds its impossible to maintain a contest bf% (sub 5%) without having severe health consequences. That is why a protocol that allows these guys to keep their composition without sacrificing their health is so important.



On the subject of dopamine agonists:

I know for a fact that bromocriptine influences caloric partitioning & the leptin signal to the brain, but can the same thing be assumed of caber/prami??
I know most people prefer caber to bromo because its cheaper & easier to dose, but are the essential mechanisms the same, or are there significant differences?
I also think DAs could address the mood issues, which is a useful extra.

Also, regarding the clomid/torem/exem suggestions by prince & staunched - would the fact that someone already has pretty low estrogen levels influence their ability to raise test?

Uh oh but once he takes these drugs he's not considered natty anymore

Yea...read the rules of natural bb comps before making stupid posts in a thread made by a natural bb coach

 

[PrinceDianabol]

Also, regarding the clomid/torem/exem suggestions by prince & staunched - would the fact that someone already has pretty low estrogen levels influence their ability to raise test?

Im purely speculating here... Though I think having low e2 to begin with may slightly influence clomid/torems ability to stimulate more test, im pretty sure unless you are primary hypogonadal you should be able to raise test to decent healthy levels. Theres been a few threads lately showing clomids ability to raise test. One of them doubled his test levels on a very small dose I believe... About 50mg e3d. Went from 390ng/dl (from memory) to 900ish.