Proscar is to DHT like....
- Thread starter slicli
- Start date
sp does not blosk the same as proscar, there are two different enzymes, i really dont know what they are called but they both contribute to dht, but sp does not block enough, or the correct enyme to help hair loss, and acne. i would never recommend using finastride, as it can have bad sides just as using gear
DTOX
New member
1o1 said:
5aR-I and 5aR-II are the two enzymes...
Saw Palmetto is an ANTI-ANDROGEN, it will lower DHT somewhat, along with your testosterone! Why people continue to take this shit is beyond me, but oh well, some peole like flushing their money down the toilet...
Proscar is somewhat better, but as was mentioned, proscar only blocks one of the enzymes well, and hilariously enough it's *not* the enzyme most associated with baldness. Needless to say proscar works...but I don't know anyone who would say it works great.
Dutasteride blocks both enzymes equally well. If this stuff is out I would definately look into it. Otherwise I'd find a nice hat.
neurotic
New member
DTOX said:
It doesn't lower DHT, nor testosterone. Don't confuse the facts. It's been shown to exert tissue specific DHT reduction, by blocking 5AR, at the prostate, as it's been shown in the studies that show no reduction in serum DHT with SP usage. On the other hand it doesn't "lower testosterone" ... it binds to the prostate androgen receptor, thus competing with other androgens, be it testosterone, DHT, primobolan, boldenone, 1-test ,.... whatever.
Saw palmetto has a very wide array of mechanisms by which it benefits the prostate. Some of them:
1) Prostate SPECIFIC blocking of both 5AR type 1 and type 2. This is, I think, one of the reasons that people trying to stop hairloss using it fail.
2) It binds to the androgen receptor in the prostate. Whether or not it also binds to skeletal muscle AR remains unknown. Even if it did, and hinder gains somewhat, given the fact that it benefits the prostate from many angles, I think that, in proportion, you get much more prostate prevention than hindering of gains.
3) It blocks Alpha 1 Adrenoreceptors.
4) It has anti-estrogenic properties in the prostate.
As you can see, Saw Palmetto is a lot more than "shit".
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slicli
New member
finesteride is of the DEVIL!!!!!!
imo at least, i was on it for 3.5 years and am thankful to be off it...i think that the % of people they claim that experience side effects is GROSSLY underestimated....
what we need is a nolva like drug for dht...one that has a higher binding affinity for our presious hair folicals then dht, but still allows blood dht levels to remain for the rest of our bodys that need it....
imo at least, i was on it for 3.5 years and am thankful to be off it...i think that the % of people they claim that experience side effects is GROSSLY underestimated....
what we need is a nolva like drug for dht...one that has a higher binding affinity for our presious hair folicals then dht, but still allows blood dht levels to remain for the rest of our bodys that need it....
neurotic
New member
1o1 said:
Saw Palmetto blocks both 5AR type 1 and type 2, the reason that it doesn't help with hairloss stems from the fact that its 5AR blocking abilities seem to be prostate tissue specific, as it's been shown on studies showing no changes in serum DHT following the administration of Serenoa Repens.
slicli
New member
So your saying that SP BLOCKS 5ar specific to the prostate? im and idiot...ill just go ahead and say that before i say this. I thought that it was dht we were trying to block from binding (to prostate and hair) or stop from being created as it is the chemical that binds and does the damage. So the 5ar enzyme binds to tissue?
neurotic
New member
slicli said:
5AR is tissue selective (prostate, skin, scalp, CNS, mainly). There's little "blood 5AR" when you compare it with the concentration it has in these specific tissues. Skeletal muscle does contain very, very little 5AR, which means that, even though DHT wouldn't be de-activated in the muscle, blocking 5AR wouldn't have an effect on skeletal muscle Androgen Receptor either.
That's actually why nandrolone is very anabolic and, at the same time, doesn't produce androgenic side effects at reasonable doses, because it strongly binds to the skeletal muscle AR, but becomes converted into a weaker androgen (DHN) in the prostate, skin, scalp, ... this means that you get anabolic effects and avoid androgenic effects. REmember than, when it comes to nandrolone, you get the opposite effect as with other AAs, for 5AR converts it into a weaker androgen instead of a stronger androgen.
Back to our Saw Palmetto issue, we think that 5AR blocking is prostate selective due to the fact that in the studies no changes in blood DHT were observed, while they found these changes in the prostate. I think that, although I'm not sure, that the jury is still out as whether or not it also block 5AR at the scalp.
neurotic
New member
slicli said:
I think it's 5AR type I which is more abundant in our scalp. 5AR turns testosterone (either endogenous or exogenous) into DHT. The reason that DHT promotes balding is that its androger receptor stimulation is 3-4 times stronger than testosterone. Testosterone itself or any other sort of androgen will promote balding, the difference is that mg per mg DHT is 4 times stronger and, in return, you get no anabolic effect, both because 5AR is almost only present in these tissues, and because DHT has no anabolic effect even if it reached the skeletal muscle, for it becomes de-activated by an enzyme (in the muscle).
Scalp androgen receptor stimulation (by DHT or any steroid) "per se" doesn't promote balding. What happens is that this scalp AR stimulation promotes changes in the hair follicle. If you have the genetics for male pattern baldness, your inmune system will view this new follicle profile as something which has to be destroyed and, in turn, your inmune system will be the destroyer of your hair.
You could supress your inmune system and you'd have a full head of hair, but there'll be a "little" problem, you'd problaby become sick and die in the process.
That's why your prevention must begin with the cause that makes our inmune system attack our follicles.
In order to do this you can:
1) Block 5AR so that less testosterone is converted to DHT. This has been shown to work quite well. You can use finasteride for this purpose.
2) Block scalp AR binding using topical antiandrogens. Spironolactone works great in order to do this, in fact, some people think it's as effective as finasteride but without systemic effects, due to the fact that its topically applied, NEVER EVER take oral spironolactone.
slicli
New member
Great info...i was under the impression that dht caused an inflamatory reaction in the follicle that casused it to make smaller and smaller hair. interesting.
I was on finesteride for 3.5 years and have been off for about a year. it really messed with my sex drive and made my prostate hurt and swollen..go figure.
I have been trying topical spiro cream @ 5% and spiro solution @ 2%. i also bleached my hair and intentinoally hit the scalp hoping to flush the follicles.
i cant remember where but i read that we dudes need dht for proper sexual function.
I was on finesteride for 3.5 years and have been off for about a year. it really messed with my sex drive and made my prostate hurt and swollen..go figure.
I have been trying topical spiro cream @ 5% and spiro solution @ 2%. i also bleached my hair and intentinoally hit the scalp hoping to flush the follicles.
i cant remember where but i read that we dudes need dht for proper sexual function.
neurotic
New member
slicli said:
Very odd, since finasteride is mainly used to treat people with prostate conditions such as BPH, where the prostate is swollen ...
Estrogen also plays a key role both in prostate cancer and BPH and, perhaps, you experienced this effect due to estrogen buildup because of DHT supression (DHT is an antiestrogen)... I can't think of any other explanation....
Had you used Arimidex in conjunction with finasteride you would probably not have suffered those prostate problems.
Yes, people taking DHT inhibitors sometimes experience impotence problems. But those problems are absolutely easily reversible when DHT levels come back to normal, for they are not caused by any organic disfunction but by lack of DHT, which could be viewed like "fuel" in this regard.
What one could do might be using a fast delivery exogenous for of DHT before practicing sex, so that it was possible to maintain erections when needed and, after that, have DHT levels below normal againt (when not needed). There's a DHT prohormone called 5AA, taken orally might help. Of course, if your sex activities are practiced on a daily basis it might not pay off, specially if you practice it many times a day. If it's something just practiced 1-2 times weekly I think it might be useful. It would allow you to have high DHT levels JUST WHEN NEEDED and then, those levels would fade back to low when they are not needed.
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