Real definitive gains after every cycle

[carverelli]

I just saw this. When you build LMM , if you keep training hard and eating you don't loose the MASS. Mass is mass and if you are fueling you body and training your body will not feed of, eat, muscle so where would it go.

I'm gonna have so disagree ....to point. When you have used hormones to surpass what is naturally possible as far as muscle mass is concerned, you're going to need SOME hormone therapy to keep most of said mass acquired in the previous cycle. Diet and training have some to do with how much muscle you can keep. But it sounds preposterous to believe you can maintain an Olympia physique once you're off the juice and slin and hgh.

 

[Mprtz]

when moderators on a supposedly science-backed-theory-forum, spout things that aren't science backed, the people that don't know, say 80-90% of the forum will believe it.

We should take the truth as authority, not the authority as truth

I certainly agree with that and maybe I'm guilty of being credulous, but it didn't (and still doesn't) strike me as an impossibility.

I went on TRT at 170lbs and on 200mg per week I didn't recognize my own body after two months. Gained over 20lbs bodyweight while becoming significantly leaner. I estimate I gained 25 or 30 lbs of muscle in that time - and I had never been that big and was only on a TRT dose with no insulin, hgh, etc.

It's fine to disbelieve, but science neither supports nor disproves the claim.

 

[oldmusclemike]

I'm gonna have so disagree ....to point. When you have used hormones to surpass what is naturally possible as far as muscle mass is concerned, you're going to need SOME hormone therapy to keep most of said mass acquired in the previous cycle. Diet and training have some to do with how much muscle you can keep. But it sounds preposterous to believe you can maintain an Olympia physique once you're off the juice and slin and hgh.

Ya know I like what you said. And I though, well I wasn't talking about that level. So when the Q's came up I was thinking about the average man. So I THINK that it isn't the same when you speak of men who have surpassed their natural level to the degree of monstrous. For give me I can't come up with the proper word to describe the big pro's. So simply put When guys reach the level of pro's , and they have to qualify I would agree and my blanket statement is not correct.


S let me explain. Most of the guys on here are not at that level and never will be. When we as armatures gain our LMM it is usually still at the degree that with the right diet and training along with time can reach this level without steroids. Time is a big factor in my assessment.

Most of these guys don't put on so much that it can't be maintained. All the time and work that gets them where they are must continue for this to be true. I think you would agree that most all, don't continue on the level they train when off cycle, ergo they loose some mass. But ya know the fibers have been "grown" and still exist and hence muscle memory.

But what I am saying is it's not the same for the level you speak of. The level those men get to is not obtainable without steroids, our level of most all these guys are in the category / range of the natural BB's.

Of course man this is my opinion from my experience only.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

I certainly agree with that and maybe I'm guilty of being credulous, but it didn't (and still doesn't) strike me as an impossibility.

I went on TRT at 170lbs and on 200mg per week I didn't recognize my own body after two months. Gained over 20lbs bodyweight while becoming significantly leaner. I estimate I gained 25 or 30 lbs of muscle in that time - and I had never been that big and was only on a TRT dose with no insulin, hgh, etc.

It's fine to disbelieve, but science neither supports nor disproves the claim.

Why are you so determined to attach a completely IRRELEVANT context to this topic?

DPR didn't mention anything about regaining lost muscle, muscle memory, etc - your taking a huge leap of faith in assuming he is.
We are not talking about mice.
We are not talking about going from a DISEASED state to a healthy one like you did.

We are talking about a healthy male with 15yrs of training experience claiming to have gained, or be capable of gaining, 40 pounds of muscle in 12 weeks. The claim extends to being disappointed with anyone who only gained 30.
In this context...this claim is complete BULLSHIT.

I encourage you look at the data regarding skeletal muscle physiology, paying particular attention the energy/time required at the molecular level, if you don't believe me

 

[Denn]

Ya know I like what you said. And I though, well I wasn't talking about that level. So when the Q's came up I was thinking about the average man. So I THINK that it isn't the same when you speak of men who have surpassed their natural level to the degree of monstrous. For give me I can't come up with the proper word to describe the big pro's. So simply put When guys reach the level of pro's , and they have to qualify I would agree and my blanket statement is not correct.


S let me explain. Most of the guys on here are not at that level and never will be. When we as armatures gain our LMM it is usually still at the degree that with the right diet and training along with time can reach this level without steroids. Time is a big factor in my assessment.

Most of these guys don't put on so much that it can't be maintained. All the time and work that gets them where they are must continue for this to be true. I think you would agree that most all, don't continue on the level they train when off cycle, ergo they loose some mass. But ya know the fibers have been "grown" and still exist and hence muscle memory.

But what I am saying is it's not the same for the level you speak of. The level those men get to is not obtainable without steroids, our level of most all these guys are in the category / range of the natural BB's.

Of course man this is my opinion from my experience only.

Exactly, I 'm not talking about Mr olimpia or extreme bodyduilding levels that have passed a lot of their natural limit , but to a level of a normal user who wants to improve the height/weight ratio of his body..
but even in this case , according to my experience, is not easy maintain most of the gain..
my direct experience is this : 4 bulk cycles in recent years (Test - Deca - Dbol only at dosage of beginner and not more) and in every cycle Starting from about 65 kg, I've reached 84/85 kg as ultimate weigh after every cycle (ideal for me), bat everytime, including last time, three or four months after the end of PCT I go down to 77/78 kg , with equal fat mass when I was on cycle, and I guarantee you that training and diet are always under control!!
Therefore, what should I assert ? that I've already reached my natural limit ?
I really hope not, I'm 1.83 cm tall and I want to get at least 85 kg...

 

[Megatron28]

Exactly, I 'm not talking about Mr olimpia or extreme bodyduilding levels that have passed a lot of their natural limit , but to a level of a normal user who wants to improve the height/weight ratio of his body..
but even in this case , according to my experience, is not easy maintain most of the gain..
my direct experience is this : 4 bulk cycles in recent years (Test - Deca - Dbol only at dosage of beginner and not more) and in every cycle Starting from about 65 kg, I've reached 84/85 kg as ultimate weigh after every cycle (ideal for me), bat everytime, including last time, three or four months after the end of PCT I go down to 77/78 kg , with equal fat mass when I was on cycle, and I guarantee you that training and diet are always under control!!
Therefore, what should I assert ? that I've already reached my natural limit ?
I really hope not, I'm 1.83 cm tall and I want to get at least 85 kg...

What is your Natty TT at? Maybe you are Hypogonadal.

Do you continue to eat maintenance level caloric intake?

Are you discounting the reduced glycogen and water upon ending your cycle?

 

[soldier74]

Exactly, I 'm not talking about Mr olimpia or extreme bodyduilding levels that have passed a lot of their natural limit , but to a level of a normal user who wants to improve the height/weight ratio of his body..
but even in this case , according to my experience, is not easy maintain most of the gain..
my direct experience is this : 4 bulk cycles in recent years (Test - Deca - Dbol only at dosage of beginner and not more) and in every cycle Starting from about 65 kg, I've reached 84/85 kg as ultimate weigh after every cycle (ideal for me), bat everytime, including last time, three or four months after the end of PCT I go down to 77/78 kg , with equal fat mass when I was on cycle, and I guarantee you that training and diet are always under control!!
Therefore, what should I assert ? that I've already reached my natural limit ?
I really hope not, I'm 1.83 cm tall and I want to get at least 85 kg...

1.83 cm tall??!! who r u...ant man? lol.

 

[Denn]

I have always had normal TT values ***8203;, only the last time I had a lower TT value (I think due to my last cycle with Deca), that I'm improving with a new PCT...
Level caloric intake is the same...
Regardless of glycogen and water can you explain better? what you mean?

 

[Mprtz]

Why are you so determined to attach a completely IRRELEVANT context to this topic?

DPR didn't mention anything about regaining lost muscle, muscle memory, etc - your taking a huge leap of faith in assuming he is.
We are not talking about mice.
We are not talking about going from a DISEASED state to a healthy one like you did.

We are talking about a healthy male with 15yrs of training experience claiming to have gained, or be capable of gaining, 40 pounds of muscle in 12 weeks. The claim extends to being disappointed with anyone who only gained 30.
In this context...this claim is complete BULLSHIT.

I encourage you look at the data regarding skeletal muscle physiology, paying particular attention the energy/time required at the molecular level, if you don't believe me

At the risk of overanalyzing: My assumption was partly based on the wording "I can build 40 lbs..." - to me this implies a statement about something someone has done and believes they can do again. Not "I believe I can...", or "I have...".

Since no one can reasonably predict that they can gain 40lbs of muscle on top of their conditioned self, this only made sense to me in the context of regaining muscle after a layoff.

In any case, I regret getting into this and appearing to take sides - I didn't even know there were sides and I'm obviously oblivious to some back story disagreement going on here.

 

[fitguy22]

1.83 cm tall??!! Who r u...ant man? Lol.

lol

 

[Megatron28]

I have always had normal TT values ***8203;, only the last time I had a lower TT value (I think due to my last cycle with Deca), that I'm improving with a new PCT...
Level caloric intake is the same...
Regardless of glycogen and water can you explain better? what you mean?

What were/are your TT values?

When using AAS your muscles are capable of holding more glycogen in them. Every gram of glycogen has about 3 grams of water attached to it. When you are done using AAS you will not longer be able to hold as much glycogen. Thus you lose weight. Glycogen is LBM.

 

[Denn]

What were/are your TT values?

When using AAS your muscles are capable of holding more glycogen in them. Every gram of glycogen has about 3 grams of water attached to it. When you are done using AAS you will not longer be able to hold as much glycogen. Thus you lose weight. Glycogen is LBM.

Megatron28... I wrote my TT values in the other thread and you've already reply me about this.

ok then I think 6 kg less can realistically depend on less glycogen , less fat ( 2 % less ) and a small amount of muscle lost from the end of the cycle

 

[Megatron28]

Megatron28... I wrote my TT values in the other thread and you've already reply me about this.

ok then I think 6 kg less can realistically depend on less glycogen , less fat ( 2 % less ) and a small amount of muscle lost from the end of the cycle

I am too lazy to search for your other thread.

 

[Denn]

I did not ask you to search for ... I'm too lazy to rewrite the same things

 

[soldier74]

I did not ask you to search for ... I'm too lazy to rewrite the same things

laziness has no place in bodybuilding fellas!! Buck up!! ;-)

 

[oldmusclemike]

Exactly, I 'm not talking about Mr olimpia or extreme bodyduilding levels that have passed a lot of their natural limit , but to a level of a normal user who wants to improve the height/weight ratio of his body..
but even in this case , according to my experience, is not easy maintain most of the gain..
my direct experience is this : 4 bulk cycles in recent years (Test - Deca - Dbol only at dosage of beginner and not more) and in every cycle Starting from about 65 kg, I've reached 84/85 kg as ultimate weigh after every cycle (ideal for me), bat everytime, including last time, three or four months after the end of PCT I go down to 77/78 kg , with equal fat mass when I was on cycle, and I guarantee you that training and diet are always under control!!
Therefore, what should I assert ? that I've already reached my natural limit ?
I really hope not, I'm 1.83 cm tall and I want to get at least 85 kg...

Re-read my post #6. So 65 kg and up to 85 and down to 77/78 , What is the problem. As I said you can only gain 15 +/- in a year. You held a gain of how much. You talk in kg and that throws me. But get the point again. So you didn't loose all and you can hold LMM, IF YOU................

 

[carverelli]

I just think if it took aas to build the mass you'll need x amount over natural test levels to keep it

Training diet genetics notwithstanding

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

if you've been at it for 15 years, and still have 40 pounds to gain...I'd suggest your diet, training and AAS/peptides/slin are bunk.

Or it could be that you don't really know what you're talking about, as we proved against your "letro cures gyno" posts.

I haven't bulked in years. I just dropped 50 pound this year so I could go back to playing hockey. I could put another 50 pounds now. But at 300 my joints hurt and I don't sleep well. I'm an easy gainer.

As far as the Letro reverses gyno . I was the chemist who originally introduced Letro to the bodybuilding world. I have more experence with these compounds than 95 % of the plannet. Your clueless. I'll put my professional experence up against your bro science any day.

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

I just think if it took aas to build the mass you'll need x amount over natural test levels to keep it

Training diet genetics notwithstanding

You are mistaken. You just need enough protein to maintain.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

As far as the Letro reverses gyno . I was the chemist who originally introduced Letro to the bodybuilding world. I have more experence with these compounds than 95 % of the plannet. Your clueless. I'll put my professional experence up against your bro science any day.

For you to accuse anyone of broscience when your King fucking Broseph himself, unbelievable...

Here are two threads where we used REAL science to show you that SERMS are better for gyno treatment than letro but guess what you did? You ran away:
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/685325-ai-reducing-estrogen-get-rid-pubertal-gyno.html
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/684531-gyno-reversal-trt-still-taking-ai.html

You are mistaken. You just need enough protein to maintain.

Here is another thread were you claimed people could keep gains beyond their genetic limit, got called out, and decided to run away again because their is zero SCIENTIFIC evidence for your bullshit:
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/682384-defining-genetic-limits.html

Your perfectly entitled to express your opinion around your own board but don't you dare pretend that its coming from a position of knowledge because it isn't.