running an AI/Post cycle therapy (pct) with HCG??

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mastere666

New member
running an AI/PCT with HCG??

Hi guys, after some modifications heres my plan for my first cycle which is still subject to change. I have already bought all the compounds listed but I need some checking on dosages etc especially for my post cycle therapy (pct) which im rather lost on!

Weeks 1-12 - 250mg 2 x a week test enanthate
Weeks 1-4 - 30mg D-bol ED
Weeks 1-11 HCG 2 x 250 Iu's a week

I've been told to stop HCG one week before last injection of test is this correct??

Now for post cycle therapy (pct)... I have both a SERM (nolva) and some AI's I have aromasin for use, shall I run my aromasin throughout the cycle? I also have letro on hand for gyno reversal should it occur...

Also how shall I run my post cycle therapy (pct)? Do I use my aromasin throughout post cycle therapy (pct) as well? I need a simple breakdown of how to run my post cycle therapy (pct), since I have added HCG I am suddenly lost on how the post cycle therapy (pct) protocol should work. Help plz :).
 
ive heard hcg durring post cycle therapy (pct) is a no no. also heard of ppl blasting it after last pin, but before starting post cycle therapy (pct).. read up on it, theres lots of good info here, start digging..
 
Run hcg the entire cycle. After last test inject, run hcg 500iu a day for 10 days take four days off then start pct.
 
mastere666 said:
Hi guys, after some modifications heres my plan for my first cycle which is still subject to change. I have already bought all the compounds listed but I need some checking on dosages etc especially for my PCT which im rather lost on!

Weeks 1-12 - 250mg 2 x a week test enanthate
Weeks 1-4 - 30mg D-bol ED
Weeks 1-11 HCG 2 x 250 Iu's a week

I've been told to stop HCG one week before last injection of test is this correct??

Now for PCT... I have both a SERM (nolva) and some AI's I have aromasin for use, shall I run my aromasin throughout the cycle? I also have letro on hand for gyno reversal should it occur...

Also how shall I run my PCT? Do I use my aromasin throughout PCT as well? I need a simple breakdown of how to run my post cycle therapy (pct), since I have added HCG I am suddenly lost on how the PCT protocol should work. Help plz :).
Click to expand...

run your hcg all the way through your cycle starting at 250iu on mon and thurs...then if your nuts shrink still titrate it to 500iu mon and thurs....then the day after your last inject of test run hcg at 500iu/ed for 10 days....4 days after that you will start serm therapy....

pct
clomid 50/50/50/50
clomid 50/50/50/50 and nolva 40/40/20/20
toremifene 60/60/60/60
(pick one of the above)

you can wait to start your aromasin when you notice signs of gyno or you can just run it from the beginning. Either way once you start it then yes you will run it through to the end of pct
 
Cobra Strike said:
run your hcg all the way through your cycle starting at 250iu on mon and thurs...then if your nuts shrink still titrate it to 500iu mon and thurs....then the day after your last inject of test run hcg at 500iu/ed for 10 days....4 days after that you will start serm therapy....

pct
clomid 50/50/50/50
clomid 50/50/50/50 and nolva 40/40/20/20
toremifene 60/60/60/60
(pick one of the above)

you can wait to start your aromasin when you notice signs of gyno or you can just run it from the beginning. Either way once you start it then yes you will run it through to the end of pct
Click to expand...

Ok thanks for the info guys, with regard to this message can I not use nolva on its own for PCT? and is there any benefit to running both clomid and nolva together?

Secondly at what dose should I run aromasin for pct and if i run it throughout cycle at what dose? Thanks in advance :).
 
Aromisin 12.5 ED all the way thru. Clomid and nolva work thru different actions so both are better in combination.
 
Ok thanks really appreciate all your help. Last question, can I use nolva as my pct at without chlomid? and if so how should i run it? I was thinking 40/40/20/20. All the sources I have checked say Nolva is better anyway? If I should use Chlomid why so?
 
mastere666 said:
Ok thanks really appreciate all your help. Last question, can I use nolva as my pct at without chlomid? and if so how should i run it? I was thinking 40/40/20/20. All the sources I have checked say Nolva is better anyway? If I should use Chlomid why so?
Click to expand...

nolva solo is not recommended. it may work fine but it may not. not worth the risk
 
mastere666 said:
All the sources I have checked say Nolva is better anyway? If I should use Chlomid why so?
Click to expand...

clomid acts like an estrogen at the pituitary, nolva does not. acting like an estrogen at the pituitary stimulates GNRH.

pople that claim Nolva is better do not under the pre-tense of the studies they are looking at. Besides Nolva lowers IGF-1, I cant think of a worse time to do this than after a cycle, thats why low dose is better, with clomid that is.
 
all these "natural AI's" are made with plant sterols. in the studies ive seen they all say it is a weak Aromatase inhibitor (AI). this is because it reduces aromatase in a different way, and needs a third action to make sure it happens. these are in vitro studies too, meaning they dont really tell the whole story anyway.

On top of that, the studies ive looked at with natural AI's, it shows it can actually increase aromatase if you ingest too much fatty acids, or if the manufacturer does not move the fatty acids from whatever branch or leaf it is from.
 
THE-DET-OAK said:
clomid acts like an estrogen at the pituitary, nolva does not. acting like an estrogen at the pituitary stimulates GNRH.

pople that claim Nolva is better do not under the pre-tense of the studies they are looking at. Besides Nolva lowers IGF-1, I cant think of a worse time to do this than after a cycle, thats why low dose is better, with clomid that is.
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks for the input. Can you have a quick read of this STICKY?
steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroids-bodybuilding-articles/24290-nolva-vs-clomid-pct.html

Can you shed some light on why you still think clomid is better? The study claims Nolva actually increases production of LH while clomid infact slightly reduces it I appreciate this sticky is old (2003), but it advocates the use of nolva over clomid and so has most of the articles I have read on the matter?
 
from Dr. Scally.


Q: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

A: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.
Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.
Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.
In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with idiopathic oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.
Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.
In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.
Michael Scally MD

Dr. Michael Scally's clinical/research emphasis is on returning individuals to normal physiology after the discontinuation of anabolic steroids. Dr. Scally has presented his medical protocol for the treatment of Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism before the Endocrine Society, American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists, American College of Sports Medicine, and International Workshop on Adverse Drug Reactions and Lipodystrophy in HIV.
 
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