Second cycle, any and all advice welcomed.

F

fevered

New member
Stats -
Height: 6'1"
Weight: 190
Age: 26
BF: 9-10%

Gear:
Weeks 1-12(last injection at 11.5): Test E @ 500mg/wk (250mg 2x/wk).
Weeks 1-3: DBol @ 30mg/day (split 10mg 3x/day).
Weeks 1-15.5: Aromasin @ 12.5mg-25mg ed-eod-e3d (this is going to take a little playing with, I will adjust according to blood work and start at 12.5mg/day).
Weeks 15.5-17.5: Aromasin @ 12.5mg/day.
Weeks 13.5-17.5: Clomid @ 50mg/day.
Weeks 1-17.5: N2Guard, full daily dose.

Blood work will be taken at the start of the cycle, and every few weeks primarily to monitor estrogen levels at different doses of Aromasin, or when estrogenic symptoms arise. I'm running Aromasin through PCT per information I have gathered from a few popular posters on this board (also cutting Nolvadex for the same reason). The reason I am avoiding HCG during the cycle is because of sensitivity to gyno.

Look okay? Something need changing? Any extra cycle support needed?
 
fevered said:
The reason I am avoiding HCG during the cycle is because of sensitivity to gyno.
Click to expand...

While looking around here I have found that several people have had gyno flare-ups due to HCG and many gyno sensitive individuals just steer clear of it altogether.
 
Your startin PCT too early. Allow at least 22days after last injection for a 500mg test e cycle. If you start it too early you increase the risk of failure. Also, personally i'd run clomid + nolva, but up to you.
If you add the nolva go 40/20/20/20
 
PrinceDianabol said:
Your startin PCT too early. Allow at least 22days after last injection for a 500mg test e cycle. If you start it too early you increase the risk of failure. Also, personally i'd run clomid + nolva, but up to you.
If you add the nolva go 40/20/20/20
Click to expand...

i would like a few more to chime in with regards to nolva, ideally, but the advice is appreciated. and is that the general consensus with enanthate? 3 weeks, not 2 before you begin PCT?

the nolva isn't an expensive addition, so i don't mind including it if that's the safest route.
 
fevered said:
i would like a few more to chime in with regards to nolva, ideally, but the advice is appreciated. and is that the general consensus with enanthate? 3 weeks, not 2 before you begin PCT?

the nolva isn't an expensive addition, so i don't mind including it if that's the safest route.
Click to expand...

Sure thing. I think you'll find most people opt for clomid + nolva. The teo together have been shown to have a synergistic effect, working together better than either alone. I'd say its definetly a tad safer to include it, and like you said its so cheap theres really no reason not to.

PCT start time depends on BOTH ester and dose. 22days is perfect for 500mgs of enanthate. But don't just take my word for it, use this:

PCT Calculator | Post Cycle Therapy Calculator

Its not just a general consensus, its science :D
 
Oh just realised, dont run an AI through pct man. Estrogen is needed for recovery too. Your not gonna know where its at anyway so more than likely you'll end up tanking it and make yourself feel worse. You'd be much better off just keeping on hand and only use it if you have to.

Also as far as im aware HCG only increases intratesticilar E2, so it shouldn't give you any worries as far as gyno is concerned.. And even then that usually only occurs with big blasts of hcg. Use it at 250ui twice a week you won't have any estro issues at all, and it will help your recovery...
 
PrinceDianabol said:
Oh just realised, dont run an AI through pct man. Estrogen is needed for recovery too. Your not gonna know where its at anyway so more than likely you'll end up tanking it and make yourself feel worse. You'd be much better off just keeping on hand and only use it if you have to.

Also as far as im aware HCG only increases intratesticilar E2, so it shouldn't give you any worries as far as gyno is concerned.. And even then that usually only occurs with big blasts of hcg. Use it at 250ui twice a week you won't have any estro issues at all, and it will help your recovery...
Click to expand...

thanks for both the pct calculator and the AI advice.

there are quite a few threads on this board and other boards concerning gyno flareups when taking HCG, but you're right; i can't exactly recall the doses at which it caused flareups. perhaps they might have been on the higher end.

in your opinion would 12.5mg of aromasin everyday be enough even for the most gyno prone individuals? or is it a safer bet to buy enough to run 25mg everyday? bearing in mind that i will also have a little letro on hand in case worse comes to worst.
 
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fevered said:
thanks for both the pct calculator and the AI advice.

there are quite a few threads on this board and other boards concerning gyno flareups when taking HCG, but you're right; i can't exactly recall the doses at which it caused flareups. perhaps they might have been on the higher end.

in your opinion would 12.5mg of aromasin everyday be enough even for the most gyno prone individuals? or is it a safer bet to buy enough to run 25mg everyday? bearing in mind that i will also have a little letro on hand in case worse comes to worst.
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No worries bro.

I've never used aromasin, so dont take my word for it but I'm pretty sure 12.5mg is basically your standard dose. If you have enough to run that throughout the entire cycle your good i reckon. Obviously you may need more, but you've got letro on hand (powerful as fuck, i've experienced letro and crashed my e2 for ages with it lol) so i think you'll be fine.

Worse for worse you can use the letro to keep e2 at bay until you can get more aromasin to run a higher dosage.

You do realise for gyno reversal AI's are not your best bet right? You'd be much better off with Raloxifen, or if not that then nolvadex. Ralox is the number 1 gold standard for gyno treatment. AIs should only be used as a preventative measure by controlling your estro. You should only experience gyno if you have failed to manage your estro levels. In which case you'd bump the AI dosage up a bit, not to treat gyno but to bring your estro to a normal level. You'd then add ralox preferably, or nolva to treat the gyno.

Gyno is caused by too much estrogen binding to the receptors in your breast tissue. AI's lower your total estrogen, but as long as there is estro circulating in your blood it will still bind to the receptors. SERMs block the estro receptors in your breast tissue, therefore starving it of estrogen. If you were to use an AI to stop estro reaching your breast tissue, you'd have to run such a high dose that you'd eliminate ALL the estro in your blood (very bad.)

Thats why you should use a SERM rather than AI for gyno treatment, and an AI as a preventer :)

Hope that explains things a bit better
 
interesting... i have no pre-existing gyno, of course. however, i was thinking that keeping letro on hand was a means for reversing gyno, should it occur. this almost seemed like the norm around here. haha. so should i just not bother with the letro at all, and pick up raloxifen instead? as i do have enough aromasin to run it at 25mg every day if need be.

thanks again by the way, you've been a big help. i've been researching and browsing random threads for so long, glad i decided to make my own though.
 
Letro used to be the main compound used for gyno treatment, but numerous studies & personal logs have shown ralox to be far superior, and it does it without destroying your libido, joints, energy levels etc... Low estro sucks. We know better than that now ;)

Well.. Like i said.. You CAN use letro as treament.. But wouldn't make sense to me.. Especially as raloxifen is so cheap. If your including nolvadex in your pct, you may aswell just use that then. Nolva and ralox are both SERMs, both work in the same way blocking the estrogen receptors. Ralox has been shown to be a bit more effective than nolva at gyno reversal, whereas nolva has been shown to be better suited to PCT use - stimulating the pituatry. Both will certainly work for either purpose though, so if your buying/bought nolva already just use that at first sign of gyno :)

What makes you think your gyno prone? Sounds like you got plenty of aromasin, so preventing gyno really shouldn't be too hard.
 
PrinceDianabol said:
Letro used to be the main compound used for gyno treatment, but numerous studies & personal logs have shown ralox to be far superior, and it does it without destroying your libido, joints, energy levels etc... Low estro sucks. We know better than that now ;)

Well.. Like i said.. You CAN use letro as treament.. But wouldn't make sense to me.. Especially as raloxifen is so cheap. If your including nolvadex in your pct, you may aswell just use that then. Nolva and ralox are both SERMs, both work in the same way blocking the estrogen receptors. Ralox has been shown to be a bit more effective than nolva at gyno reversal, whereas nolva has been shown to be better suited to PCT use - stimulating the pituatry. Both will certainly work for either purpose though, so if your buying/bought nolva already just use that at first sign of gyno :)

What makes you think your gyno prone? Sounds like you got plenty of aromasin, so preventing gyno really shouldn't be too hard.
Click to expand...

i see, i see... and yes, i am already in the process of procuring nolva, so i'll just go that route and skip out on letro all together, i think. if raloxifen is cheap, i'll just grab a little of that to hold on to in case of gyno symptoms, similar to what i planned to do with the letro.

the reason i believed myself to be gyno prone was due to getting itchy / tender nipples simply from the use of DAA, which i imagine is extremely mild compared to real anabolics. that being said, i just don't want to take any chances at all.
 
fevered said:
i see, i see... and yes, i am already in the process of procuring nolva, so i'll just go that route and skip out on letro all together, i think. if raloxifen is cheap, i'll just grab a little of that to hold on to in case of gyno symptoms, similar to what i planned to do with the letro.

the reason i believed myself to be gyno prone was due to getting itchy / tender nipples simply from the use of DAA, which i imagine is extremely mild compared to real anabolics. that being said, i just don't want to take any chances at all.
Click to expand...

Yeah bud you'll be fine with just nolva in that case. No need to go spending more money on ralox, i was only suggesting it because i thought it was priced as cheap as nolva is.

Its possible the DAA raised your estro enough for symptoms to occur... But im doubtful :p there are heaps and heaps of reasons that could cause your nipples to go itchy/ sensitive. Realistically it happens to us all the time - we just never notice it until you have gyno on your mind, then every single itch fuels the paranoia.

Like you said tho, always better to be safe than sorry :)
 
I would hazard that 12.5mg ED will be sufficient, but if you can play it safe and have enough to run 25mg ED if necessary that'd be smart.

And depending on your source, unfortunately it's tough to be certain 12.5mg aromasin is actually 12.5mg - could be anywhere from 0 to 50 (just guessing the top end)
 
snowpatrol123 said:
I would hazard that 12.5mg ED will be sufficient, but if you can play it safe and have enough to run 25mg ED if necessary that'd be smart.

And depending on your source, unfortunately it's tough to be certain 12.5mg aromasin is actually 12.5mg - could be anywhere from 0 to 50 (just guessing the top end)
Click to expand...

Great point. This is why bloodwork is important OP. Theres also the fact the everyone reacts differently, for e.g 12.5mg of aromasin may be fine for me but you may need a jigher dose for the same results etc.
 
So then, a recap/illustration of all of the changes to be made to my original plan:

Weeks 1-12(last injection at 11.5): Test E @ 500mg/wk (250mg 2x/wk).
Weeks 1-3: DBol @ 30mg/day (10mg 3x/day).
Weeks 1-14: Aromasin @ 12.5mg-25mg/ed/eod/e3d (adjusted according to symptoms/bloodwork).
Weeks 1-14.5: HCG @ 500iu/wk (250iu 2x/wk).
Weeks 14.5-18.5: Clomid @ 50mg/day.
Weeks 14.5-15.5: Nolvadex @ 40mg/day.
Weeks 15.5-18.5: Nolvadex @ 20mg/day.
Weeks 1-18.5: N2Guard, full daily dose.

A much more agreeable cycle? Seems to have turned itself into something very vanilla, but I suppose vanilla is a good flavor for beginners. :)
 
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fevered said:
So then, a recap/illustration of all of the changes to be made to my original plan:

Weeks 1-12(last injection at 11.5): Test E @ 500mg/wk (250mg 2x/wk).
Weeks 1-3: DBol @ 30mg/day (10mg 3x/day).
Weeks 1-14: Aromasin @ 12.5mg-25mg/ed/eod/e3d (adjusted according to symptoms/bloodwork).
Weeks 1-14.5: HCG @ 500iu/wk (250iu 2x/wk).
Weeks 14.5-18.5: Clomid @ 50mg/day.
Weeks 14.5-15.5: Nolvadex @ 40mg/day.
Weeks 15.5-18.5: Nolvadex @ 20mg/day.
Weeks 1-18.5: N2Guard, full daily dose.

A much more agreeable cycle? Seems to have turned itself into something very vanilla, but I suppose vanilla is a good flavor for beginners. :)
Click to expand...

Bro vanilla is always good - tried, tested & true - sometimes french vanilla to switch it up.

Oh...icecream metaphors...I eat a lot of icecream not going to lie.

Stop the HCG a few days before you start taking PCT drugs btw - other than that it looks pretty solid.

I'm not ashamed to say I don't know what N2Guard does, but on the other hand that means you probably don't need it.
 
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