Shbg ?

dude your free T is 22! why you need to lower SHBG? these guys are right on what will work, but just so you know, typically it is found that androgen therapy alone keeps SHBG plenty low enough. also your TSH is very high. Just FYI oral Winstrol (winny) lowers it much better, thats why if I were to take Winstrol (winny), i would dose one day oral and the next inject, the best of both worlds.
 
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Boy it's good to hear the effectiveness of oral Winstrol (winny) in this regard because I have over a hundred 10mg Winstrol (winny) tabs on hand. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind the injectable.
 
dude your free T is 22! why you need to lower SHBG? these guys are right on what will work, but just so you know, typically it is found that androgen therapy alone keeps SHBG plenty low enough. also your TSH is very high. Just FYI oral Winstrol (winny) lowers it much better, thats why if I were to take Winstrol (winny), i would dose one day oral and the next inject, the best of both worlds.

Is there such a thing as too much free T? How do you know that oral Winstrol (winny) lowers SHGB better? Is there studies showing that? One more thing.. What does TSH have to do w/ lowering SHGB? Is there a correlation between the two?
Alot of questions, but you put alot of info out there and I'm curious of your reasoning behind your statements..
 
Is there such a thing as too much free T? How do you know that oral Winstrol (winny) lowers SHGB better? Is there studies showing that? One more thing.. What does TSH have to do w/ lowering SHGB? Is there a correlation between the two?
Alot of questions, but you put alot of info out there and I'm curious of your reasoning behind your statements..

there is no such thing as too much free T but low SHBG can be problematic, if its too low for too long.

there are some studies showing that SHBG is lowered better with oral, but the mechanism of action is what makes it lower it better, kinda how AI's lower it.

as for TSH, there is a HUGE correlation between thyroid and T levels and vice versa. Thyroid hormones are respoinsible for your natural aromatase inhibition.

winny is horrible for cholesterol, so you should monitor that too.
 
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article by Anthony Roberts.

First, lets go over the basics of Winstrol, so were all on the same page here.

Winstrol is a steroid derived from the base structure of Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT is just testosterone which has been 5alpha-reduced, meaning it has had the c4-5 double bond removed by two hydrogen atoms. This is very interesting from a chemical/biological standpoint. Once this bond is removed, testosterone has become DHT, and DHT is the bodys most potent androgen. DHT has a slew of beneficial effects which are more pronounced than the hormone its created out of. DHT is able to increase androgen receptor proliferation for almost 24 full hours (1) DHT also has profound effects on the Central Nervous System (CNS), and this is why we often see profoundly increased aggression with athletes who are using DHT derivatives such as Masteron (which has a deceivingly low anabolic and androgenic rating). As an added benefit, DHT can not aromatize (convert via the aromatase enzyme) into estrogen. Its also noteworthy that the injectable version of Winstrol is actually the same exact thing as the oral- its just micronized Stanozolol powder suspended in water (or sometimes oil).

So what we have in Winstrol is DHT with two modifications- an added c17 methylation, and a very weird pyrazol group. The c17 methylation has been added in order to allow Winstrol to survive oral ingestion and the subsequent first pass through the liver. The pyrazol group is a bit weirder- what this means to you and I is that it has another whole ring attached to the four ring Steran Nucleus of DHT. Take a look over at the lower left portion of the two molecules below, and youll notice that Winstrol has an added cyclopentane (5 sided) group (the pyrazol group):


DHT Winstrol
When we really take a look at Winstrol, the anabolic rating of this product is very high (320% that of testosterone) as compared to its androgenic actions (30% of testosterone). Despite this, Winstrol is really a disappointing drug for size gains. What we typically see with this stuff is some pretty decent strength gains and some nice fat loss if the user isnt too sloppy with their diet. Not many people report huge weight gains off of Stanozolol. Although many drugs which bind tightly to the androgen receptor are suspected to exhibit their at least some of their lipolytic (fat-burning) effects through receptor binding affinity. The effects of androgens on the regulation of lipolysis in adipose precursor cells.(2), Winstrol remains a potent cutting drug, despite the fact that it has a relatively weak AR binding ability (3). What this tells me is that theres some stuff going on with regards to Winstrols mechanism of action, which doesnt involve androgen receptor mediated effects. Still, Winstrol is a very potent compound for enhancing protein synthesis (4-5 ) .

As previously discussed, its derived from DHT, and DHT is known to have ant-estrogenic effects (6) and Winstrol itself also has anti-progestenic properties (in at least some cases, where it may "block" that receptor) (7). So I think its safe to say that some of the hard look you can get in your physique from Winstrol is because of its ability to inhibit estrogen and progesterone- known culprits in making a physique appear smooth. Unfortunately, since it is 17aa, it is also liver toxic, especially more so when you inject it and it is subject to what is known as the first pass through the liver. The difference between taking oral vs. injectable Winstrol, even though its technically the same drug, is how and when your body metabolizes it. When you consume a drug orally, that drug is absorbed from the Gastrointestinal tract, where it then passes via the portal vein into the liver -where some drugs are metabolised. This first pass can mean that only a certain portion of the drug reaches your bodys bloodstream. As previously discussed, a 17aa has been attached to Winstrol to allow a sizeable portion to survive this metabolism.

First pass metabolism can occur in both the gut and the liver, and where this happens can vary with different drugs. First pass metabolism actually occurs in your gut for some drugs and in the liver for others. Once it has been metabolized, it enters the bloodstream. Its important to note that when a blood is metabolized in the Gastrointestinal tract, the blood leaving the Gastrointestinal tract does not go right to the heart, but actually still passes through liver via the hepatic portal vein and then ultimately returns to circulation via the hepatic vein. The liver is your bodys filtration unit, and removes large quantities of nutrients, dangerous toxins (or fun toxins, depending on what they are) and other substances from the blood.

So as you can see, when you take an oral steroid such as Winstrol, undergoes a first-pass metabolism in the both the intestines as well as liver. Some drugs can be absorbed more or less totally intact, after only moderate metabolic activity, while some are absorbed only after very extensive metabolic activity. Once it is through this first pass, a given drug then circulates in the blood until it is acquired by another tissue, such as skeletal muscle. Now, if the drug reaches the liver again, it may undergo what is cleverly known as second-pass metabolism. Of course, in the case of Winstrol, an injectable version is available, and when we compare the oral and injectable versions of Winstrol and their effects in your body, I think theres some surprising differences. The injectable is (naturally) put right into your bloodstream and only undergoes the far less extensive second pass metabolism, while the oral must endure the gut and liver on its first pass before ending up in circulation.

Now, heres the interesting part: When you inject Winstrol, instead of taking it orally, you actually get more nitrogen retention (4) (and hence we can infer, more new muscle tissue is being built). SO if you are trying to use Winstrol to build new muscle tissue, the injectable version is going to be far superior to the Oral version. However, there are some advantages that the oral version has over the injectable, including a possible synergy with other drugs- but only (primarily) when taken orally.

While in the liver, on its first pass, Winstrol is exposed to a variety of enzymes and proteins. To understand how a possible synergy between Winstrol and other steroids may be possible, a little background on Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) is first necessary. For our purposes here, all we need to know is that SHBG is a glycoprotein produced in the liver, which binds to testosterone and makes it biologically unavailable to do all the things we want it to do- like building muscle. It serves to transport testosterone throughout the body, but while it remains bound to testosterone, the testosterone can not exert its anabolic effects.




As you can surmise, a very large portion of the testosterone in your body is bound to SHBG. Wouldnt it be great if we could lower SHBG? With Winstrol we can.

A fairly conservative oral dose of .2mg/kg of Winstrol has been shown to lower SHBG by close to 50%. (8)For me (200lbs) this would mean I would only need around 18mgs/day to free up half of my SHBG bound testosterone! For my omnipresent and hypothetical 100kg bodybuilder- only 20mgs would be needed (hes 220 lbs for the metrically impaired among us). Now, with less SHBG floating around in me, my anabolic steroid cycle will be more effective, right? Right.

But why can we only expect such a dramatic lowering of SHBG with the oral? Well, obviously, were taking advantage of the first pass through the liver, where we can have our Winstrol interact with SHBG where its produced- in the liver without going through the bloodstream first.

When we take a look at a study done comparing injectable vs. oral contraceptives, we find that the oral version at 70mgs/week (10mgs/day given orally) is more effective at affecting SHBG levels than 400mgs/week given via an injection! (9)In this study, testosterone undecanoate was given at a constant dose along with norestisterone (which raises SHBG). What we see is that when norestisterone is given orally, it produces a far greater effect on SHBG, than when it is administered via an injection. And this is even when the doses of the injectable are 4x higher!

Heres a chart, illustrating exactly what Im talking about in this study, which I think suggests very strongly that injectable versions of drugs, when compared with the oral version, will have nowhere near as much of an effect on SHBG:



Group I (Black Circles): Injections of 200 mg NETE at study wk 0, 6, 12, and 18 plus injections of 1000 mg TU at study wk 2, 6, 12, and 18 (T free window). Group II (White Diamonds): Injections of 1000 mg TU together with 400 mg NETE at study wk 0, 6, 12, and 18. Group III (Grey Squares): Injections of 1000 mg TU at study wk 0, 6, 12, and 18 combined with daily oral 10 mg norethisterone acetate (NETE) from week 0 to 24 (9)
Of course, in this study, theyre looking at oral vs. injectable versions of a SHBG raising drug- but what we can take away from it is that SHBG interaction with oral compounds is far more pronounced than it is with injectables.

So lets take a small amount of Winstrol with our cycles, and free up some of those steroids were taking, right? Right!

Unless of course, were talking about women here I was recently asked why I recommend that women use the injectable version of Winstrol over the oral. I was asked this question by someone, who I assumed had a female friend who was considering using Winstrol. I then realized I was totally incorrect- not about Winstrol, but about the reason behind the question. You see I saw a picture of the man who had first asked me the question, and its readily apparent to me that he probably doesnt actually know any women. But still, his question is valid and bears repeating and answering here.

I recommend that women avoid the oral version of this product for the same reason that men will find that it gives them an increased synergy and effectiveness in their cycles.

When SHBG is lowered in women, there is more free testosterone floating around. And as weve seen, the oral is going to affect SHBG exponentially more than the injectable will. When we lower SHBG too much in women, we see a strong positive correlation with hyperandrogenism (10 ), and hirsuitism (abnormal growth of body hair), as well In fact, non-SHBG-bound testosterone may actually be the defining characteristic for identifying hyperandrogenism in women. In addition, low SHBG contributes to menstrual irregularity.(11)

Finally, and (partially) anecdotally, we also see a greater incidence of clitoral enlargement and acne when the oral version of Winstrol is used by women instead of the injectable. The reasons for this are obvious- When we increase free testosterone by lowering SHBG, we increase the amount of testosterone which is able to be 5a-reduced to DHT. DHT is the primary culprit for steroid induced acne, and is also the hormone responsible for external genital enlargement. Clearly, this is why we see the increased level of clitoral hypertrophy as well as acne when oral Winstrol is used by women.

We can also see increased acne when men use Winstrol orally, but these effects are relatively minor when a 2mg/kg dose is being used to increase the effectiveness of other steroids in a cycle. This isnt carte blanche to go using Winstrol for an extended period of time under the excuse that its increasing the overall effectiveness of the cycle. Stanozolol has some of the worst liver toxicity (hepatoxicity) of any oral steroid on a mg for mg basis. In addition, its deleterious effects on your lipid profile (Cholesterol) are also very pronounced, even at low doses- 6mgs/day of Stanozolol can lower HDL (good cholesterol)by 33% and raise LDL (bad cholesterol) by 29% (12 ).

So, hopefully, youve reached the end of this article and realized that Winstrol can be used in any cycle to increase the effectiveness of it, but that it must be used sparingly due to its possible hepatoxicity and lipid profile effecting properties. Still, when used in heavy testosterone-based profiles, at a dose that will cut your SHBG levels in half, it can increase you other steroids effectiveness quite a bit but when maximal protein synthesis is wanted, you need to inject it.

There you go the differences between oral and injectable Winstrol, and how you can use either form to maximize your gains! And yes, Lyle, you can drink Winny.

References:

Neural Androgen Receptor Regulation: effects of androgen and antiandrogen. Lu S, Simon NG, Wang Y, Hu S, J Neurobiol 1999 Dec; 41(4):505-12
Endocrinology. 1990 Feb;126(2):1229-34. Xu X, De Pergola G, Bjorntorp P
Endocrinology. 1984 Jun;114(6):2100-6.
Can J Vet Res. 2000 Oct;64(4):246-8.
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1997 Sep 15;211(6):719-22
MacDonald PC, Madden JD, Brenner PF, Wilson JD, Siiteri PK 1979 Origin of estrogen in normal men and in women with testicular feminization. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 49:905916
Agents Actions. 1994 Mar;41(1-2):37-43.
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin response to the Anabolic steroid: Stanozolol: Evidence for its suitability as a Biological Androgen Sensitivity test. J Clin Metab Endocrinol 68: 1195, 1989)
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 87,No. 2 530-539. An Effective Hormonal Male Contraceptive Using Testosterone Undecanoate with Oral or Injectable Norethisterone Preparations Axel Kamischke, Tanja Heuermann, Kathrin Krüger, Sigrid von Eckardstein, Ilka Schellschmidt, Alexander Rübig and Eberhard Nieschlag Institute of Reproductive Medicine of the University (A.K., T.H., K.K., S.V.E., E.N.), D-48129 Münster, Germany; and Schering AG (I.S., A.R.), D-13342 Berlin, Germany
Non-sex hormone-binding globulin-bound testosterone as a marker for hyperandrogenism DC Cumming and SR Wall J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Nov 1985; 61: 873 - 876.
Menstrual Irregularity in Women with Acromegaly G. A. Kaltsas, J. J. Mukherjee, P. J. Jenkins, M. A. Satta, N. Islam, J. P. Monson, G. M. Besser, and A. B. GrossmanJ. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Aug 1999; 84: 2731 2735
JAMA. 1989 Feb 24;261(8):1165-8
 
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it may be fine at that dose, just monitor it. if it messes it up you just come off for a lil til it works itself out.
 
there is no such thing as too much free T but low SHBG can be problematic, if its too low for too long.

there are some studies showing that SHBG is lowered better with oral, but the mechanism of action is what makes it lower it better, kinda how AI's lower it.

as for TSH, there is a HUGE correlation between thyroid and T levels and vice versa. Thyroid hormones are respoinsible for your natural aromatase inhibition.

winny is horrible for cholesterol, so you should monitor that too.

Sorry for thread hopping, BUT can you tell me where to find info on the tsh and t levels. i have been in synthroyd for 10+ years and my DR dosent think the two are connected.

what does SHBG stand for??
 
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thank you!

shbg=Sex Hormone Binding Globulin

The amount of SHBG in circulation is affected by age and sex, by decreased or increased testosterone or estrogen production, and can be affected by certain diseases and conditions such as liver disease, hyperthyroidism or hypothyroidism. Correct??
 
im trying to find an exact article that explains the main relationship, it sounds to me what is happening with you is estrogen and thyroid hormones are competing with each other, therefore your thyroid hormones, even though blood levels are good, can not do its job.



Thyroid hormone and estrogen have opposing actions. Estrogen inhibits thyroid action in the cells, interfering with the binding of thyroid to its receptor. Both hormones have phenol rings at a corner of their molecule. The respiratory enzymes of cells are thyroid-dependent. When thyroid function is low, cellular oxygen is low (cellular hypoxia). Thus, estrogen-induced thyroid interference contributes to less-than-optimal brain function. Excess estrogen may compete with thyroid hormone at the site of its receptor. In so doing, the thyroid hormone may never complete its mission, creating hypothyroid symptoms despite normal serum levels of thyroid hormone. Progesterone, on the other hand, increases the sensitivity of estrogen receptors for estrogen and yet, at the proper level, inhibits many of estrogen's side effects.

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-thyroid&tid=57457

these actions are much more heavily studied in women than men, this is because they have so much more estrogen than us it happens to them more often, but it can def happen to us as well. If your doc doesnt know the relationship between thyroid and sex hromones, I would find a new one.
 
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im trying to find an exact article that explains the main relationship, it sounds to me what is happening with you is estrogen and thyroid hormones are competing with each other, therefore your thyroid hormones, even though blood levels are good, can not do its job.



Thyroid hormone and estrogen have opposing actions. Estrogen inhibits thyroid action in the cells, interfering with the binding of thyroid to its receptor. Both hormones have phenol rings at a corner of their molecule. The respiratory enzymes of cells are thyroid-dependent. When thyroid function is low, cellular oxygen is low (cellular hypoxia). Thus, estrogen-induced thyroid interference contributes to less-than-optimal brain function. Excess estrogen may compete with thyroid hormone at the site of its receptor. In so doing, the thyroid hormone may never complete its mission, creating hypothyroid symptoms despite normal serum levels of thyroid hormone. Progesterone, on the other hand, increases the sensitivity of estrogen receptors for estrogen and yet, at the proper level, inhibits many of estrogen's side effects.

Testosterone - Estrogen Puzzle - About.com Thyroid Disease Forum

these actions are much more heavily studied in women than men, this is because they have so much more estrogen than us it happens to them more often, but it can def happen to us as well. If your doc doesnt know the relationship between thyroid and sex hromones, I would find a new one.

WOW! that is good info. I wish i could find a new Dr, But he is the best one so far. He is the only one that will go by how i feel first and tsh levels second. All the other Dr's
would just say you are in range.

The Dr i have now will keep me in the lower end of the scale.

males with low thyroid seen to get a raw deal because there is so few of us compared to women.
 
bumping this thread back up. I'm curious how harsh on the liver it would be to use oral Winstrol (winny) at 25mg once a week to control shbg..?
 
OAK OAK OAK. lol. You are posting these studies and freaking the shit out of everyone here because it said Winstrol (winny) is toxic in high doses. ANYTHING can be toxic in high doses, including water. I have been on Winstrol (winny) 25mg every 5-7 days for close to a year and my lipid profile is fine. Pros will take 125mg or more ED for weeks on end...and that is a high dose. Relax ya'll....Chip does not blindly guide anyone into destruction. In fact, it is great because it blocks environmental estrogens. So in the end it makes you healthier if you maintain it at that dose.
 
I have been taking the 50mg troche once a day for a week now. Its probably to early yet but I dont see/feel anything happening. I will keep taking this for 10 weeks.

after 10 weeks i will do more blood work and compare the SHBG numbers and see what kind of drop I get.
 
I have been taking the 50mg troche once a day for a week now. Its probably to early yet but I dont see/feel anything happening. I will keep taking this for 10 weeks.

after 10 weeks i will do more blood work and compare the SHBG numbers and see what kind of drop I get.

Please do, I'm really interested to see how it works out. Are you gonna have your lipids tested as well?

in my starting labs my SHBG was 27.9. around 3 months after starting my protocol I'll test again to see where it's at
 
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