Swimming for cardio is great
- Thread starter Deadlift
- Start date
Deadlift said:
well from my understanding there are 2 basic types of fat viceral, subcutaneous ... the first is what goes around your organs is is the easiest to mobelize and lose (explaining why you can lose weight and not notice it) ... the later is under the skin, and responsible mainly for the way you look .... so increases in the sub fat would be very NEGATIVE
Dish_Bizkit
New member
I would have to see some articles or proof that swimming raises sub fat. If you look at a swimmers build (watch the Olympics) all swimmers are long and very lean. Swimmers need to be long and lean, the long stroke in the water makes you move faster and being lean causes less drag in the water. I have buddies that were college swimmers (University of Florida) and olympic hopefuls and those professional swimmers shave their entire body free of any hair just to make sure that there is no drag. If swimming does raise sub fat levels it would have to be very very little because every swimmer I know and competed with was very lean. My best stroke was the breast stroke, I would win almost all my heats in that and in relays I was the breast stroke swimmer. I believe that is one reason why my pec muscles are thick and develop better than any other muscle in my body, or maybe it's just genetics.
Mudge
Community Veteran
ready2explode said:
Never heard of it? Its called adaptation. People of the orient carry more visceral fat than subcutaneous, call that genetics and adaptation at work over thousands of years. Same thing in effect year, other than it takes less time.
Yes, its easy on the body, which is why you will spot old or heavy people in the water. This is why I like low impact stuff myself, walking or a bike, over jogging/running.
Feel free to rip open Google, I find everything with it.
Mudge
Community Veteran
iamcdn said:
How did you get that completely backwards? If your hot the body has no need for fat insulation, if your in a cold pool then your body is going to start storing fat underneath the skin to help retain heat. At my bodyweight I hardly ever have need for an overshirt or jacket, when many other people are freezing thier ass off. Many fat people are sweating constantly, and hardly ever have need for jackets either. Eventually cold penetrates the skin, but if there is a layer of fat there then its going to keep you warm, longer.
Mudge
Community Veteran
http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/10_10Notes for Week 10.htm
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/T041300.asp
http://faculty.washington.edu/wcalvin/bk3/bk3day9.htm
People seem to be linking subcutaneous fat, with the theory that we have been swimming for over a million years as other mammals have more hair, where we have fat for insulation.
http://polarmet.mps.ohio-state.edu/ASPIRE_99/seals/science/evtxt.htm
http://www.sos.se/fulltext/110/2002-110-14/2002-110-14.pdf
At this point I am thinking most of these studies stem from English Channel crossers, which would be somewhat akin to making it across the bay at Alcatraz.
Walking is much lower impact than running, I am not relating it to swimming at all. I consider biking or walking low impact.
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/T041300.asp
http://faculty.washington.edu/wcalvin/bk3/bk3day9.htm
People seem to be linking subcutaneous fat, with the theory that we have been swimming for over a million years as other mammals have more hair, where we have fat for insulation.
http://polarmet.mps.ohio-state.edu/ASPIRE_99/seals/science/evtxt.htm
http://www.sos.se/fulltext/110/2002-110-14/2002-110-14.pdf
At this point I am thinking most of these studies stem from English Channel crossers, which would be somewhat akin to making it across the bay at Alcatraz.
Walking is much lower impact than running, I am not relating it to swimming at all. I consider biking or walking low impact.
Mudge
Community Veteran
Enjoy your search then, its not an issue for me so I dont plan to search more on it 
One thing I always tell people, is be wary of studies. They are often biased, and sometimes misproven later on. I dont think thats the case in this discussion, but as said I've done enough poking around for something that I have no interest in
One thing I always tell people, is be wary of studies. They are often biased, and sometimes misproven later on. I dont think thats the case in this discussion, but as said I've done enough poking around for something that I have no interest in
ok, read your quotes from the articles:
none of them say that
also you asked
well from what i read, i thought you said it
and from this logic, it makes sense that you can lower subcutaneous fat levels by exercises in hotter temperatures, lets say a sauna. now, i ask do you burn more calories in hotter temperatures, this may have an effect on subcutaneous fat, but it surely does not mean that your body automactic lowers fat leve to keep the body cool
later
none of them say that
... no proof that it actually RAISES subcutaneous fat
also you asked
well from what i read, i thought you said it
, but that makes no sense since from all your research they use the fat to keep you warm (swimming the english channel, cold water fish) etc ....
and from this logic, it makes sense that you can lower subcutaneous fat levels by exercises in hotter temperatures, lets say a sauna. now, i ask do you burn more calories in hotter temperatures, this may have an effect on subcutaneous fat, but it surely does not mean that your body automactic lowers fat leve to keep the body cool
later
arby
Frank Zane
http://www.sportsci.org/news/compeat/fat.html
SWIMMERS: Body fat mystery!
Louise Burke, Australian Institute of Sport, Canberra, Australia
Swimmers, especially female swimmers, face an energy balance conundrum. Elite swimmers typically undertake 4000-20,000 m per day in training, burning thousands of calories. However, the typical body fat levels of these athletes are significantly higher than runners or cyclists who expend similar or even smaller amounts of energy in their training. Many female swimmers have fought well-publicized battles with their body fat levels and with their coaches! They are generally prescribed "land training" (running or cycling) in addition to their many laps of the pool in the belief that it is a necessary treatment to produce lower skinfold levels.
Do energy discrepancies really exist in swimming? Why do swimmers seem to have drawn the short straw of body fat management? The following theories have been suggested:
Swimmers have higher energy intakes than other athletes and eat more energy than they expend. It has been suggested that swimming doesn't cause the appetite drop that accompanies heavy running and cycling training. Many people observe that they feel like "eating a horse" after they have finished a swim training session, and may overcompensate for the energy they have just burned. Some research suggests that this is due to the cool temperatures in which swimmers train. By contrast, runners and cyclists usually experience an increase in body temperature during training, which may serve to suppress appetite - at least in the short term.
Swimmers are less active outside their training sessions. They are so tired from the hours spent training that they sleep, sit or otherwise avoid any real energy expenditure outside their sessions.
Two studies from Costill's Human Performance Laboratory at Ball State University have tried to address the energy balance oddity of swimmers. Jang et al.(1987) attempted to gain a crude measure of daily energy balance by comparing collegiate swimmers and collegiate distance runners. Ten athletes of each sex from each sport participated in the study. The findings: runners had lower body fat levels than swimmers (7% v 12% for male runners v swimmers, and 15% v 20% for females). All subjects kept detailed 3-day food records, and 1-day activity records were kept by half the subjects in each group. These records noted the amount of time each individual spent sleeping, sitting, walking, standing or training. The energy cost of these activities was estimated individually for each athlete by duplicating the activity in the laboratory and collecting oxygen consumption data. This factor multiplied by the time spent in each activity produced an estimate of total daily energy expenditure.
Results showed that both groups reported similar daily energy intakes: 3380 kcal and 3460 kcal for male swimmers and runners; 2490 kcal and 2040 kcal for female swimmers and runners, respectively. Estimated energy output was in agreement for each group, with the values for the groups of male athletes being roughly equal and similar to their reported intake. The female swimmers had a higher energy expenditure than female runners, and in fact were in slight negative energy balance. These results were not helpful in finding or explaining an energy dilemma, or major differences between types of athletes. The theories above might explain the problems experienced by some individual swimmers, but the theories were not supported by evidence from the study.
One of the limitations of this study is that each method of measuring energy balance is subject to considerable flaws. It is almost impossible to measure usual energy intake from diaries. Apart from the errors in translating descriptions of food into calorie counts, it is unlikely that people eat "normally" while they are recording. It is well-known that those who are conscious of their body fat underreport their food intake. It is also hard to complete and describe "normal" by record. In reporting, athletes try to appear as "good" as possible and thereby cover-up the clues to any energy balance problems. The behavior of individuals may also be masked by the "averaging" of results.
The other study by Flynn et al.(1990) examined energy and fuel usage during training sessions and recovery in swimming and running. It theorized that differences in hormonal patterns and the oxidation of fat might explain differences in body fat levels. Swimmers and runners trained for 45 minutes at 75-80% V02max then recovered for 2 hours. Triathletes did one session of each so that results could be compared for the same individual. During these periods, blood hormone levels, glucose and fatty acid levels, and gas exchange were measured and oxidation of various body fuels monitored.
The results showed no differences in total energy expenditure during training or recovery between groups. There were some differences in substrate utilization and hormone levels. For example, swimming resulted in lower blood glucose levels than running, with some evidence of a greater reliance on carbohydrate as a fuel during swimming. This is likely to be further accentuated in the real life training of swimmers who undertake a high proportion of high-intensity interval work. During recovery, fat oxidation tended to be greater after swimming than running. Overall, these differences were small and could not explain why swimmers have higher body fat levels.
While theories abound, no studies can verify or explain a real difference. These studies clearly leave the way open for further research. Techniques such as the double-labelled water method of energy expenditure estimation might provide a new way to measure energy balance issues. A final idea that needs to be explored is whether a selection process is at hand. Elite swimmers may be predisposed to have higher body fat levels because it is a help, or at least less of a disadvantage, to their swimming. Rounded shoulders and smooth curves may be more biomechanically sound than bony angles. Higher body fat levels are a greater disadvantage to weight-bearing sports like running. So perhaps those who aren't genetically inclined to very low body fat levels, but are otherwise possessive of high-level endurance qualities, should head for the water at an early age!
Flynn, M.L., Costill, D.L., Kirwan, J.P., Mitchell, J.B., Houmard, J.A., Fink, W.J., Beltz, J.D., D'Acquisto, L.J. (1990). Fat storage in athletes: metabolic and hormonal responses to swimming and running. International Journal of Sports Medicine, 11, 433-440.
Jang, K.T., Flynn, M.G., Costill, D.L., Kirwan, J.P., Houmard, J.A., Mitchell, J.B., D'Acquisto, L.J. (1987). Energy balance in competitive swimmers and runners. Journal of Swimming Research, 3, 19-23.
SWIMMERS: Body fat mystery!
Louise Burke, Australian Institute of Sport, Canberra, Australia
Swimmers, especially female swimmers, face an energy balance conundrum. Elite swimmers typically undertake 4000-20,000 m per day in training, burning thousands of calories. However, the typical body fat levels of these athletes are significantly higher than runners or cyclists who expend similar or even smaller amounts of energy in their training. Many female swimmers have fought well-publicized battles with their body fat levels and with their coaches! They are generally prescribed "land training" (running or cycling) in addition to their many laps of the pool in the belief that it is a necessary treatment to produce lower skinfold levels.
Do energy discrepancies really exist in swimming? Why do swimmers seem to have drawn the short straw of body fat management? The following theories have been suggested:
Swimmers have higher energy intakes than other athletes and eat more energy than they expend. It has been suggested that swimming doesn't cause the appetite drop that accompanies heavy running and cycling training. Many people observe that they feel like "eating a horse" after they have finished a swim training session, and may overcompensate for the energy they have just burned. Some research suggests that this is due to the cool temperatures in which swimmers train. By contrast, runners and cyclists usually experience an increase in body temperature during training, which may serve to suppress appetite - at least in the short term.
Swimmers are less active outside their training sessions. They are so tired from the hours spent training that they sleep, sit or otherwise avoid any real energy expenditure outside their sessions.
Two studies from Costill's Human Performance Laboratory at Ball State University have tried to address the energy balance oddity of swimmers. Jang et al.(1987) attempted to gain a crude measure of daily energy balance by comparing collegiate swimmers and collegiate distance runners. Ten athletes of each sex from each sport participated in the study. The findings: runners had lower body fat levels than swimmers (7% v 12% for male runners v swimmers, and 15% v 20% for females). All subjects kept detailed 3-day food records, and 1-day activity records were kept by half the subjects in each group. These records noted the amount of time each individual spent sleeping, sitting, walking, standing or training. The energy cost of these activities was estimated individually for each athlete by duplicating the activity in the laboratory and collecting oxygen consumption data. This factor multiplied by the time spent in each activity produced an estimate of total daily energy expenditure.
Results showed that both groups reported similar daily energy intakes: 3380 kcal and 3460 kcal for male swimmers and runners; 2490 kcal and 2040 kcal for female swimmers and runners, respectively. Estimated energy output was in agreement for each group, with the values for the groups of male athletes being roughly equal and similar to their reported intake. The female swimmers had a higher energy expenditure than female runners, and in fact were in slight negative energy balance. These results were not helpful in finding or explaining an energy dilemma, or major differences between types of athletes. The theories above might explain the problems experienced by some individual swimmers, but the theories were not supported by evidence from the study.
One of the limitations of this study is that each method of measuring energy balance is subject to considerable flaws. It is almost impossible to measure usual energy intake from diaries. Apart from the errors in translating descriptions of food into calorie counts, it is unlikely that people eat "normally" while they are recording. It is well-known that those who are conscious of their body fat underreport their food intake. It is also hard to complete and describe "normal" by record. In reporting, athletes try to appear as "good" as possible and thereby cover-up the clues to any energy balance problems. The behavior of individuals may also be masked by the "averaging" of results.
The other study by Flynn et al.(1990) examined energy and fuel usage during training sessions and recovery in swimming and running. It theorized that differences in hormonal patterns and the oxidation of fat might explain differences in body fat levels. Swimmers and runners trained for 45 minutes at 75-80% V02max then recovered for 2 hours. Triathletes did one session of each so that results could be compared for the same individual. During these periods, blood hormone levels, glucose and fatty acid levels, and gas exchange were measured and oxidation of various body fuels monitored.
The results showed no differences in total energy expenditure during training or recovery between groups. There were some differences in substrate utilization and hormone levels. For example, swimming resulted in lower blood glucose levels than running, with some evidence of a greater reliance on carbohydrate as a fuel during swimming. This is likely to be further accentuated in the real life training of swimmers who undertake a high proportion of high-intensity interval work. During recovery, fat oxidation tended to be greater after swimming than running. Overall, these differences were small and could not explain why swimmers have higher body fat levels.
While theories abound, no studies can verify or explain a real difference. These studies clearly leave the way open for further research. Techniques such as the double-labelled water method of energy expenditure estimation might provide a new way to measure energy balance issues. A final idea that needs to be explored is whether a selection process is at hand. Elite swimmers may be predisposed to have higher body fat levels because it is a help, or at least less of a disadvantage, to their swimming. Rounded shoulders and smooth curves may be more biomechanically sound than bony angles. Higher body fat levels are a greater disadvantage to weight-bearing sports like running. So perhaps those who aren't genetically inclined to very low body fat levels, but are otherwise possessive of high-level endurance qualities, should head for the water at an early age!
Flynn, M.L., Costill, D.L., Kirwan, J.P., Mitchell, J.B., Houmard, J.A., Fink, W.J., Beltz, J.D., D'Acquisto, L.J. (1990). Fat storage in athletes: metabolic and hormonal responses to swimming and running. International Journal of Sports Medicine, 11, 433-440.
Jang, K.T., Flynn, M.G., Costill, D.L., Kirwan, J.P., Houmard, J.A., Mitchell, J.B., D'Acquisto, L.J. (1987). Energy balance in competitive swimmers and runners. Journal of Swimming Research, 3, 19-23.
ready2explode
New member
Awesome posts Mudge and Arby
'tensity
Always Learnin'
Trevdog said:
Water workouts are even better. Not just swimming but if you can find a lap lane where your head is above water (easy cuz I'm tall), the resistance running is great for muscle density, fiber creation, tendon strengthening and dexterity, and a MAJOR workout.
workinonit
New member
agreed tensity...i can't swim for 30 min but i can run in the water for a while.... man it really burns my legs...i like to hold a float in front of me and try to run as fast as i can
