TB500 dose for liver damage?

[MBB]

Ok peptide pros, I need your expertise. I will apologize in advance for the length.

I have liver damage, that can best be described as non-alcoholic fatty liver disease/cirrhosis/hepatitis (my doctor isn't 100% sure what to label it as, but I seem to have the symptoms related with these diseases and general damage of the liver. We think the cause is due to about 17 years ago I contracted glandular fever and hence chronic fatigue quite severely, an issue which flared up numerous times over the years. Unfortunately CFS/Glandular fever is much like the Hepatitis virus in that it never leaves your system and causes damage to the liver over time. To further compound these issues, years later (about 10-12 years ago) I went on a long/strong course of roaccutane. Unfortunately with my already damaged liver the roaccutane seemed to make matters worse. I have never drank, nor done any drugs (aside from my Dr prescribed TRT), have always ate right and exercised. Fast forward to now and although I'm on NAC and a Liver health complex 2x a day, with good liver values on my blood work, I still suffer from long-term liver damage. Just to name a few things I'm going through:
- bloated abdominal
- frequent mood changes
- hot flashes from eating
- excessive thirst + frequent urination
- constant fatigue
- insomnia + night sweats
- constant indigestion + sinusitis
- chronically low platelets - I haven't had my platelets in range since I went on roaccutane
- there are more symptoms, but I'll stop there

To my long-winded question:
Through my reading I found that things like low dose Anavar (10-25mg a day) had been successfully used to treat cirrhosis and hepatitis of the liver, but there is also the chance of further liver toxicity. I then found that similar results had been found with HGH, so I started looking at peptides. I know from various logs that TB500 has been successfully used to treat injuries, so I looked into it some more and found some info in which TB500 may be used to treat liver damage as it's used to treat tissue damage.
This is where things got a little interesting for me. I also found that TB500 is found naturally in the body in PLATELETS, of which I have chronically low levels of and have had for a decade. So could TB500 boost my bodies limited supply (due to low platelets) and hence help my liver repair itself? If so, what sort of dose would I need? How often would I need to dose and what sort of duration do you think would work?

 

[Megatron28]

I have never heard of anyone using TB500 to treat a damaged organ. I am interested in learning about this.

 

[MBB]

This study shows that thymosin beta 4 is lower in those with liver issues so it would make sense that the addition of TB4/TB-500 would help:

Serum thymosin beta4 levels in patients with hepatitis B virus-related liver failure.

AuthorsHan T, et al. Show all Journal
World J Gastroenterol. 2010 Feb 7;16(5):625-30.

Affiliation
Abstract
AIM: To investigate whether serum thymosin beta4 can provide diagnostic or prognostic information in liver failure patients caused by chronic hepatitis B virus (HBV) infection.

METHODS: Serum thymosin beta4 levels were measured in 30 patients with acute-on-chronic liver failure (ACLF), 31 patients with chronic liver failure (CLF), 30 patients with compensated liver cirrhosis (CR) and 32 patients with chronic hepatitis B and 30 healthy controls. Serum thymosin beta4 levels were measured by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay and Child-Pugh and model for end-stage liver disease (MELD) scores were calculated for each patient on admission.

RESULTS: Compared with healthy controls, serum thymosin beta4 levels in ACLF, CLF, CR and chronic hepatitis B patients were significantly lower, 6.5047 (4.7879-10.5314) microg/mL vs 0.4632 (0.2759-0.8768) microg/mL, 0.6981 (0.5209-1.2008) microg/mL, 1.8053 (0.8110-2.3397) microg/mL, 3.7803 (1.8570-6.4722) microg/mL, respectively (P < 0.001). The levels of thymosin beta4 in liver failure (ACLF or CLF) patients were markedly lower than that in CR (P < 0.001), and a difference was also found between CLF and ACLF patients (P = 0.038). In patients with chronic liver disease, there was a positive relationship between thymosin beta4 levels and albumin, choline esterase, and platelet (P < 0.001), and negative relationship with alanine aminotransferase (P = 0.020), aspartate aminotransferase, total bilirubin, international normalized ratio of prothrombin time, and Child-Pugh and MELD scores (P < 0.001). Of the 61 liver failure patients, the thymosin beta4 levels of non-survivors were significantly lower than that of survivors (P = 0.007). Receiver operating characteristics analysis identified a thymosin beta4 cutoff level of 0.5708 microg/mL for predicting poor prognosis in all liver failure patients. The serial thymosin beta4 values were observed in 13 liver failure inpatients. Lower initial values were observed in the death. While greater improvement in thymosin beta4 value was found in those who recovered from the disease.

CONCLUSION: Serum thymosin beta4 can be used as an important potential predictor for liver failure caused by chronic HBV infection.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

I think tb500 certainly has the ability to heal muscles, ligaments, eyes & the heart so I don't see why this shouldn't extend to the liver.

However, the issue would be the amount of guess work required as far as dosage & length of treatment are concerned.
Wouldn't it be better to start with something that has alot of research consistently supporting its use in protecting & repairing the liver - UDCA?

 

[MBB]

I think tb500 certainly has the ability to heal muscles, ligaments, eyes & the heart so I don't see why this shouldn't extend to the liver.

However, the issue would be the amount of guess work required as far as dosage & length of treatment are concerned.
Wouldn't it be better to start with something that has alot of research consistently supporting its use in protecting & repairing the liver - UDCA?

I'm already on 600mg NAC 2x a day as well as a liver complex with the well researched silymarin compound 2x a day. Both of these have my liver values at a good level, but what I'm really hoping for is something to try and speed up the years of compounded damage. So if I went down this road, I wouldn't be gauging of bloodwork as like I said my liver values are fine at the moment, I'd be gauging it purely off the reduction of the constant symptoms I have.

Do you think that UDCA would provide any additional benefit to the NAC and liver complex I'm already on?

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

I'm already on 600mg NAC 2x a day as well as a liver complex with the well researched silymarin compound 2x a day. Both of these have my liver values at a good level, but what I'm really hoping for is something to try and speed up the years of compounded damage. So if I went down this road, I wouldn't be gauging of bloodwork as like I said my liver values are fine at the moment, I'd be gauging it purely off the reduction of the constant symptoms I have.

Do you think that UDCA would provide any additional benefit to the NAC and liver complex I'm already on?

I am very sceptical, and the research supports this, that NAC can do much for an already damaged liver.
Protect? Sure. Repair? I doubt it.

UDCA has alot of research showing that it can repair damage done to the liver, here is the most convincing study:

Ursodeoxycholic acid in chronic liver disease.

 

[MBB]

I am very sceptical, and the research supports this, that NAC can do much for an already damaged liver.
Protect? Sure. Repair? I doubt it.

UDCA has alot of research showing that it can repair damage done to the liver, here is the most convincing study:

Ursodeoxycholic acid in chronic liver disease.

UDCAs a little more difficult to get a hold of in Australia, but do you think it would be worth adding on top of what I'm already taking, or drop the NAC and replace with UDCA?

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

UDCA is available from RUI.

It terms of running it with, or in place of, NAC - it depends on how long you've been on it.
If you've been taking NAC for a longtime then replace it, if not then run them together.

 

[MBB]

Just found some other healing peptides that may have organ protective/regenerative properties.

ACT1 and BPC157.

 

[MBB]

Had a phone consult with my doc. He hadn't heard of TB500, but thought that my logic made a lot of sense in that Thymosin Beta 4 is the main compound and is the regenerative substance, and is found in high quantities in platelets. Seeing as my platelets are chronically low my Thymosin Beta 4 would be low and hence less ability to heal and regenerate. With a damaged liver, which helps to produce/manufacture platelets, means that I'm basically stuck in a circle of not being able to heal. Thereby if I supplemented with additional Thymosin Beta 4 (TB500) I could theoretically heal my liver which will in turn produce more platelets, which will in turn produce more Thymosin Beta 4, which will in turn help the body to heal itself. Of course this is all speculative at the moment.
Another interesting fact the doctor told me, is that liver values on a blood test only show an issue when the liver is at or below 65% functionality, which explains why my liver values are fine now, but still have the liver damage.

My doc is going to also get me to do a special liver function test which involves taking some drugs (paracetamol and something else) and guaging how efficiently the body excretes these over the course of a day, via urine samples.

My doc has also recommended to go see a haematologist re: chronically low platelets, but unfortunately there's a 3 month wait list. So, I think i'll start the TB500 in a couple of weeks and try my luck. Optimistically, by the time the haematologist appointment comes around I no longer need it. Worse come to worse I've lost a few hundred dollars on the TB500.

 

[JimiThing]

I am vry interested in this so please keep us posted. I would echo UDCA as well given the circumstances. I would direct some of your research efforts there as well as the tb500. I have experienced tb500 benefits elsewhere so while it may not surprise me it would be huge to find that its benefits are applicable here.

 

[MBB]

The functional liver test the doc wants me to do may be a good way to gauge it, the only problem is it's $140.

Healthscope Pathology :: Functional Liver Detoxification Profile (FLDP)

 

[MBB]

Also, what's the difference between UDCA and TUDCA?

 

[JimiThing]

tudca has the addition of taurine - it was a way for supp companies to be able to sell it. Id recommend udca -thats what all the hard data is on.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

As Jimi stated - UDCA is really worth trying, there is a load of solid research advocating its use in repairing the damage done to the liver.

TB500 is worth investigating, but IMO you should go with the compound that actually as applicable data supporting it.

 

[MBB]

As Jimi stated - UDCA is really worth trying, there is a load of solid research advocating its use in repairing the damage done to the liver.

TB500 is worth investigating, but IMO you should go with the compound that actually as applicable data supporting it.

What's the minimum effective dose for UDCA? As far as OTC supps go, it's fairly expensive - particularly as the only place I can really get it is from RUI and they charge about $25 for shipping.

Maybe it's worth trying UDCA for a month or so and gauging how I go and then progressing to TB500.

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

This study highlights the optimal doses:

Optimum dose of ursodeoxycholic acid in - PubMed Mobile

Start with 900mg/day or 13.5mg/kg/day, which ever is lowest for you.

 

[MBB]

Wow. Even at 900mg a day 1 bottle from RUI will only last me 16 days and at $106.5 a bottle (by the time shipping is factored in) that starts to look really expensive. Maybe, I'll wait a while before I try the UDCA.

 

[Megatron28]

I looked on Amazon. They don't have UDCA but they did have TUDCA. 60 pills at 250mg each for $43 USD. Might be an alternative.

http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Powde...06598549&sr=1-1&keywords=ursodeoxycholic+acid

 

[MBB]

Thanks, but I'm really leaning towards getting some blood work done next week and then jumping on the TB - even if it just raises my platelets then that'd be a tangible, measurable result.