Test Cyp. shut down & fertility-- labs included

[charlie33]

Hello everyone-

OK, so here we go. I am 41 years old 6'4" and weigh 275. Went to doc and had labs since it had been over 10 years!! So, the doc i went to ruled out diabetes and thyroid etc. My fasting blood glucose levels have been semi-high around 110-120, but an a1c was normal. So he decided to have my testosterone levels tested. My original labs were done in the fall of 2010, Nov 10 and here were the results: from Labcorps...

14013- testosterone, free and total

testosterone serum: 362 ng/dl 280-800
Free testosterone (direct): 8.3 pg/ml 6.8-21.5 This was all he tested apparently!!! No LH or FSH, E2, etc.

He called me and said he had identified the issue---Low T, and explained that he had some options for me to consider.
So I rcvd my 1st shot on Dec. 12th of 200mg Test cyp, and he said to come back at beginning of the year and would go from there. I weighed 275 at beginning of December. By end of Dec. I went back to doc Jan. 8th and was now up to low 280's, and I did not feel anything from this 1 shot, and had started to research on these forums, and thought I should do weekly. Now keep in mind at this point he never once mentioned testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT), lifetime or explained a plan.

He just mentioned taking 8-10 shots and then retesting., and explained the benefits of gaining some muscle and helping to lose some fat. So he agreed to do weekly injections of 200mg test cyp. So i began weekly injections then --beginning of year. After the 4th shot I started to feel much better (energy, motivation etc.), however, I was now up to 295
I know my strength was exploding in the gym, but I was really concerned that this might affect my fertility. My wife and I have been trying to conceive for a few years and I have always had very good sperm labs in the 50-80 million range. So after my 7th shot end of February, i went to see doc and had some questions for him--like what was his plans for me when i stop the shots, and how will i recover, will this affect my natural production, and do i need some AI's or some Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) etc. He was clueless!!!
So I asked to see a specialist (endo). So I went to endo in mid March, and he confirmed that I was starting to shut down. He said stop shots immediately lets wait 4-6 weeks and retest. He didnt even want me to take why protein supps. He did a physical exam and thought my testes were 40-50% smaller than normal, and they had begun to shrink from the shots.

He couldnt believe the doc had scripted me 200m/week, conidering my levels were only normal low--362. Bottom line is I had labs done again at the local VA hospital in April--6 weeks after last shot: rcvd complete blood count, thyroid tested, and testosterone: they use quest.

April 19th 1st VA labresults---
HBa1c 5.5 range 4-6
GLU 108 H 72-99
chol 144 0-200
HDL 39 35-65 little low
LDL(Calc) 87 65-165
TSH 1.819 .47-5
T3 UPTK 29 22-35
T4 6.67 4.5-12
FT4 1.08 .7-1.48
FSH .8L miu/ml 1.6-8.0
LH <0.2 1.5-9.3 almost shut down completely after 8 total shots of 200mg/week of test cyp over a 3mo.

TRIIODO 99ng/Dl 76-181
Estadiol 35pg/ml 13-54
Total Test 400ng/dl 250-1100
FR Test: 41.4L pg/ml 46-224 below normal range
TESTBIO 81.5L ng/dl 110-575 below normal
SHBG: 44nmol/L 9-45 seems high suppose to restest in 60 days, waited 5 months til Sept. 21st- Results: Quest

2nd VA lab by quest: chantilly, Quest diagnostics nichols institute
HBA1c: 5.7 4-6
GLU 104 72-99
TSH 1.81 .47-5 same exact as earlier????
LH 2.6 miu/ml 1.5-9.3 up from before where I was super low
FSH (STL-MA) 4.0 1.6-8.0
Total Test 267ng/dl 241-827
Albumim (pb-sendout) 4.7 g/dl 3.6-5.1
Test FREE (sendout) 50.1pg/ml 46-224 seems low?
TEST BIOAVAILMA-PB-SO) 107.3L ng/dl 110-575 below normal???
SHBG $21.12 39nmol/L 10 -50
Didnt have estradiol tested...


Oh yeah I had a sperm lab done in July and the labs were 19 mi;lllion 20-100million is the range, so little low!!
I am just wondering what supps I can take to get my Free test up until we can conceive or stop trying. Then at that point I will consider testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), but til then I am wondering if I should take any Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) or use some AI'sl like aramidex or Aromasin??

Any supps I should take like to boost my FREE T & total T?? I feel sluggish, but make it to the gym 3-4 times a week. My sleep patterns arent that good either --FYI, and I am concerned about these levels. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, and I suppose I should mention my Libido is decent, never have had a problem getting it up, although very rare to get morning wood within the last year---accept while taking shots!!
Thanks and help/advice appreciated!!!

 

[TR2838]

Your doc prescribed you a 10 week cycle.. Lol. I have never heard of that before! Look into clomid.. Check out the post cycle therapy (pct) section because you are coming off of a cycle even though it was doctor prescribed..

 

[transcend2007]

Howdy Charlie. This is one of the huge benefits of this form. It gives us the knowledge to assist in the management of our own therapy. I am constantly amazed at the general lack of knowledge and experience of typical GPs and even endos in regard to HRT.

You have learned a difficult lesson (and thanks for sharing it with us) that at the end of the day we are each ultimately responsible for our own bodys and treatment.

You said your boys had shrunk about 40% to 50% as of April. Do you believe they have come back to normal in the past 6 months? If not, perhaps some Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) would be in order.

You would definitely benefit from a consultation with Chip (when he gets back). There have been many examples of men conceiving while on TRT.

 

[cashout]

For the record 200mg a week of test cyp/ent for 6 months without Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will put the majority of men in an azoospermia state - very low or near zero sperm count.

That has been demonstrated in numerous studies.

From what you described, you are heading in that direction.

At your age if you are looking to conceive, you need a restart post cycle therapy (pct) and I would not rely on a simple SERM post cycle therapy (pct) to accomplish that objective.

Look in to Dr. Micheal Scally's Protocol.

In a nutshell, he recommends...

1) 2000 iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) EOD for 21 days
2)On the 22nd day start 100 mg Clomid taken 50 mg in the AM and 50 mg again in the PM. Run the Clomid for 30 consecutive days.
3) Also on the 22nd day, start 40 mg of Nolva. Run that for 45 consecutive days.

I can personally attest to many a successful post cycle therapy (pct) after a cycle with this protocol. It has been around for a long time but it works.

 

[charlie33]

Thanks for the replies fellas! I appreciate your time & concern. Cashout I took one shot in December cause he originally set me up to do once a month shots. I went back in January after 3 weeks and told him I didnt feel anything, and after doing a little research on some forums, I thought more frequent would be better, so he did decide on weekly shots at that point. I then started taking a shot every week for the next 7 weeks--for a total of 8 shots! I became concerned cause I was reading and learning and began to realize that this would suppress my natural production and could totally shut me down!! Needless to say, I went back to doc and asked him a few questions and realized he didnt have much experience or knowledge or a plan for me. His plan was to just stop giving me shots and taper me off slowly. Also during the initial labs he didnt test my other hormones (LH/FSH or E2) to determine whether I was primary or secondary hypogonadic or out of balance --- too much estrogen!!

My concern now is it has been over 6 months since my last shot and I didnt think taking a post cycle therapy (pct) plan would be necessary at this point, since I wasnt taking high doses like in a BB cycle, and also I have been told that taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) could further suppress my LH. I would like to see if I can get my levels up and back to normal before I decide to go with a life time commitment of Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) ya know. I have had several people mention that I might do a clomid challenge--like 25-50mg eod for a month, not sure if this would suppress or affect anything naturally-- What do u guys think?
I did go to an endo, and again he was more knowledgeable of my system--the hormones & shutting down etc., but when I mentioned TRT/HRT, he became defensive and said theres no such thing as a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) doc. He just said stop everything cold and lets re normalize and get a new baseline and go from there, which is what Ive done. Im little skeptical of this guy cause he wouldnt look at some of my articles and research I had done and seemed closed minded--not to mention he said I couldnt even take some whey protein from GNC--lol.

Lastly, yeah Transcend a consultation with Chip is in order, but in the short term, any suggestions on a good natty Test booster?? I have researched many different forums and they have recommended HCGenerate/phytoserms 347, and I have found ISA-TEST, and another is syntheroid-- they all seem to have similar ingredients ( Fadogia, Fenugreek (testofen), and this 3,4 divanil, and also Eurycoma Longofolia/ Longjack. Any experience with these products?? Thanks guys and keep the feedback and advice coming---- I am wanting to soak up as much as possible so I can get my passion & motivation back!! I havent had any problems with ED or getting it up--thank God--just lethargy and loss of motivation like I felt for the first 35 years of my life!! Thanks again, Charlie33

 

[cashout]

I have been told that taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) could further suppress my LH. I would like to see if I can get my levels up and back to normal before I decide to go with a life time commitment of Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) ya know. I have had several people mention that I might do a clomid challenge--like 25-50mg eod for a month, not sure if this would suppress or affect anything naturally-- What do u guys think?
Charlie33

1. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) used for a short duration will have the effect of mimicing LH and stimulating the Lydig cells to produce T. Since the HPTA works through a negative-feedback loop, you are going to need to "prime the pump," so to speak, to get the entire balance of hormones back to a functional level.

2. Your LH is still LOW. That is the signal that is going to stimulate the testis, hence my suggestion of HCG.

3. Regardless of the fact that you did not do a "bodybuilding cycle" your HPTA is still clearly suppressed.

For the record, I've not found on OTC supplement that is any quantifiable value when it comes to restoration of a suppressed HPTA.

Therefore, I would not waste your time or money with the OTC remedies.

 

[transcend2007]

Agreed. OTC is not what you need.

I would recommend a current blood test since the last one is from April. And, then get with a professional to assist you in journey back.

 

[charlie33]

Agreed. OTC is not what you need.

I would recommend a current blood test since the last one is from April. And, then get with a professional to assist you in journey back.

Transcend---
My last lab was on September 21st!!! My first lab was done last November and only Test/Free was tested and I was at 367. Then I had 2nd lab done at the VA in April and my LH & FSH were virtually non-existent. Then my 2nd VA lab done by Quest was done last month--the results were posted on my first post near the bottom--my total Test like 267 and free Test below normal--check it out and see what u think!! So no test boosters huh?

 

[TR2838]

Cashout is a smart dude.. I would take his advice.. He's not a guy that just posts for the hell of it.. The advice is solid bro

 

[charlie33]

For the record 200mg a week of test cyp/ent for 6 months without Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will put the majority of men in an azoospermia state - very low or near zero sperm count.

That has been demonstrated in numerous studies.

From what you described, you are heading in that direction.

At your age if you are looking to conceive, you need a restart PCT and I would not rely on a simple SERM PCT to accomplish that objective.

Look in to Dr. Micheal Scally's Protocol.

In a nutshell, he recommends...

1) 2000 iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) EOD for 21 days
2)On the 22nd day start 100 mg Clomid taken 50 mg in the AM and 50 mg again in the PM. Run the Clomid for 30 consecutive days.
3) Also on the 22nd day, start 40 mg of Nolva. Run that for 45 consecutive days.

I can personally attest to many a successful PCT after a cycle with this protocol. It has been around for a long time but it works.

Cashout---
Just wanted you to know that I took the 200mg of Tcyp for 2 and a half months (a total of 8 shots), it looks like u thought i took it for 6 months, but regardless, it did severely suppress me and my lab I had in April showed that my LH & FSH were almost non-existent. However with that lab my total T was 400--kind of wierd compared to my last lab done in September where my LH & FSH have gone up into the normal low range, but my total T dropped to 267. At this point do u think a full blown PCT with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) & clomid is necessary?? I mean it has been 6 months since I have any shots ya know---and I have rebounded back to the bottom end of the normal range. I have a bottle of 10,000 iuis of HCG, just need some clomid& nolva. What do u suggest at this point? Should I go back to the endo and show him my last 2 labs? I just figured since i was trying to rebound naturally wasnt for sure if it would help at this far along, but I am open to your suggestions!!! TY, charlie

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

just clarify 362, what you originally tested at is pretty low. just cause it falls into the "low normal range" does not mean you didnt need/warrant TRT. Yes the doc should have warned you about the long term sacrifices made to be on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), but still you were already in the toilet.

a guy at 362 and a guy at 280 would prolly have the same shitty symptoms.

cashout has told you what to do, i can only add that i may ad an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) to the regimen. there are lots of studies floating around on obese infertile men. AI's seem to work effectively for that and the studies usually go 3 months. they do recommend that you go back to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) once conveived because we do not know the long term effects yet of using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) to treat hypo.

Nature Clinical Practice Endocrinology & Metabolism | Treatment of male infertility secondary to morbid obesity | Article

 

[ecdysone]

You've received alot of good advice from the other guys so I'll just add a slightly different view.

It's probably been too long to consider full PCT, but Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) therapy has value for several reasons.

Your original test levels suggest you may be a good candidate for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) monotherapy in its own right. Goggle: Dr. Shippen's Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stimulation test.

Since you already have HCG, it certainly wouldn't hurt to start on a Shippen protocol [for example, front load with 1000IU, then 500 IU ED, or 1000IU EOD] for three weeks and then get re-tested. It will be a win-win situation.

 

[TR2838]

You've received alot of good advice from the other guys so I'll just add a slightly different view.

It's probably been too long to consider full PCT, but Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) therapy has value for several reasons.

Your original test levels suggest you may be a good candidate for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) monotherapy in its own right. Goggle: Dr. Shippen's Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) stimulation test.

Since you already have HCG, it certainly wouldn't hurt to start on a Shippen protocol [for example, front load with 1000IU, then
500 IU ED, or 1000IU EOD] for three weeks and then get re-tested. It will be a win-win
situation.

Just throwing this out there... I'm definitely no expert w/ PCT.. But, wouldn't Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) be a temporary fix if he doesn't get his pituitary producing LH again on it's own via clomid/nolva after the HCG?

 

[ecdysone]

Yes, you are exactly right.

After the 3-week Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) period he and his doctor will have to decide on what course of therapy to use. Might be he just stays on Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) therapy or tries clomid (which has it's own long term problems), or if all fails, then it's TRT.

The Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) puts off the decision for awhile, but in the interim it helps out his endogenous test production.

 

[ironbutterfly]

Good luck trying to have children over 40 years old,sperm is old man,but all the best.

 

[Packgus]

shit i know guys making babies in thier 50s

 

[BZOERB]

ironbutterfly

You know sperm does not get old right? The age of a healthy male does not matter at all.