Testosterone known as the base to most cycle stacks

[ceo]

Not running Test with your cycles sounds like 30yrs ago when I was told just to pyramid my cycle with no pct lol. How about the juice doctor at the gym telling me parabolin was a deadlift drug and would make mine increase 50lbs lol. Please guys run at least 80mgs of test a week with your cycles.

But there was no PCT 30 years ago. That's why guys would pyramid their doses down.

 

[Megatron28]

It's not up to me to say for anyone else. It's an individual decision based on the user and his goals (as I keep saying). I have not advised anyone here to not run test, though it seems you all think that is what I am saying.

A question was asked if test is always necessary. I answered that it's not, but it depends on the user and their goals. Many people have run cycles without using test either at all, or at least not using test during part of the cycle (as in dropping test from a cycle the last few weeks). It is a completely individual thing and what works for one person may not work for others.

So help us learn from you. Share your opinion and rationales for your opinions. Give us scenarios. Share your experiences of when you personally have found it advantageous to not include testosterone in your cycles.

 

[ceo]

So help us learn from you. Share your opinion and rationales for your opinions. Give us scenarios. Share your experiences of when you personally have found it advantageous to not include testosterone in your cycles.

Sure. You just want to set me up so you guys can all jump in and gang up to pick apart my posts like you have been. I'll pass.

I will say again, that it is all up to the user and their goals. It's an individual determination.

Are you guys all over in the PH forum, jumping on the guys that are running a PH/DS, or SARMs only cycles without a test base? Just curious because I haven't seen this over there. Shouldn't they be warned?

 

[Megatron28]

Sure. You just want to set me up so you guys can all jump in and gang up to pick apart my posts like you have been. I'll pass.

I will say again, that it is all up to the user and their goals. It's an individual determination.

Are you guys all over in the PH forum, jumping on the guys that are running a PH/DS, or SARMs only cycles without a test base? Just curious because I haven't seen this over there. Shouldn't they be warned?

I am not trying to bait you. I like to learn from other guys here. But I understand if you prefer to let this subject die.

I don't have any personal experience with pro hormones so I don't post in that forum much, but my basic understanding is that PH's are often harder on the HPTA than actual AAS and yield far inferior results. I would never recommend that anyone use PH's for those reasons.

 

[STAUNCHED427]

Everyone I personally know who have run a cycle, whether it is oral only or injectable without test has admitted they felt like shit 9/10 times. Usually dbol they get away with, no I do not condone this, let's not get into that.

Do you have to run test as a base? No. Do you have to drink water? No. Do you have to wear a seat belt? No.

You don't have to do anything you don't want, but this often comes with consequences. I will say this again, if you care for your mental well-being and physically health you will have the sense to use a low dose of test 100-200mg OR hCG to have your body running on it's own test. Yes guys drop test pre-comp and some run cycles without test... Some guys feel ok mentally, most won't, and many of the ones saying they feel mentally typically will not admit they feel like shit... You need to take everything you hear with a grain of salt.

Prohormones are shit. SARMS are also shit. My 2c. You valid to your opinion, but that is mine.

 

[cybrsage]

Most people probably already know this, but it seems appropriate to post it in this thread. I bolded a vary important thing testosterone does in males.

What is testosterone?

Testosterone is a hormone produced primarily in the testicles. Testosterone helps maintain men's:
Bone density
Fat distribution
Muscle strength and mass
Red blood cell production
Sex drive
Sperm production

Testosterone therapy: Key to male vitality? - Mayo Clinic

Testosterone tells the Kidneys to produce erythropoietin. Erythropoietin is needed to tell the bone marrow to create red blood cells. If you do not have enough testosterone, you will not have enough erythropoietin and therefor not enough red blood cells. You will develop anemia. You also see the opposite of this from people who regularly inject testosterone; they create too many red blood cells.

Living with your testosterone shut down to anything below 100 for any significant length of time (a few weeks) can easily put you into anemia. It is not something that you should ever risk.

 

[Megatron28]

Most people probably already know this, but it seems appropriate to post it in this thread. I bolded a vary important thing testosterone does in males.


Testosterone therapy: Key to male vitality? - Mayo Clinic

Testosterone tells the Kidneys to produce erythropoietin. Erythropoietin is needed to tell the bone marrow to create red blood cells. If you do not have enough testosterone, you will not have enough erythropoietin and therefor not enough red blood cells. You will develop anemia. You also see the opposite of this from people who regularly inject testosterone; they create too many red blood cells.

Living with your testosterone shut down to anything below 100 for any significant length of time (a few weeks) can easily put you into anemia. It is not something that you should ever risk.

Don't other steroids promote red blood cell production even in the absence of testosterone?

 

[ceo]

Living with your testosterone shut down to anything below 100 for any significant length of time (a few weeks) can easily put you into anemia. It is not something that you should ever risk.

Easily? I don't know about that. There are a lot of aging men with Low T who aren't anemic. Do you have anything more statistically concrete?

 

[ceo]

Don't other steroids promote red blood cell production even in the absence of testosterone?

yes. Anadrol was prescribed for that I believe.

 

[cybrsage]

Don't other steroids promote red blood cell production even in the absence of testosterone?

No idea, I was just researching the importance of testosterone.

EDIT: Apparently, all anabolic / androgenic steroids cause red blood cell creation. So I suppose any of them can be used, buy why not use testosterone since is so cheap and readily available?

I hope also evident through this piece is the more primary focus on the different agents, and the fact that the enhancement of red blood cell production is a trait shared by all anabolic/androgenic steroids.

http://forums.isteroids.com/anabolic-steroids-questions-answers/46081-steroids-red-blood-cells.html

EDIT EDIT: Also found more info. Normal day to day red blood cell creation in men is caused by testosterone in the body. If the red blood cell count falls too low, the body responds to the reduced oxygen level by creating Erythropoietin to cause a surge in red blood cell creation. The same has been seen in people and animals that slowly suffocate over a long period of time (such as miners trapped in a mine)...their brain is flooded with Erythropoietin. So basically, in a normal man, testosterone keeps the body full of red blood cells. If that fails, the body will eventually go into emergency mode and make them anyway, but not until you have fallen very low.

As an aside, having high levels of Erythropoietin in your body gives you a sense of well being and happiness...maybe that is one of the reasons why people who are taking a lot of anabolic steroids feel so good. Just a guess on that part.

 

[cybrsage]

Easily? I don't know about that. There are a lot of aging men with Low T who aren't anemic. Do you have anything more statistically concrete?

Low T is basically anything under 300ng/dL (give or take some depending on who you ask). You have to fall MUCH lower than that to have a problem.

Androgen Action in the Kidneys

Androgen receptors located in the kidneys are responsible for augmenting the stimulation of red blood cell production, or more specifically the process or erythropoiesis. They of course only play a supportive role; otherwise androgens would be essential to blood oxygen carrying capacity and life function, which they are not. Their role however remains significant. Men and women for example display notable variances in red blood cell content, with men carrying a much higher concentration of red blood cells in comparison. As follows, castration of the male testicles (eliminating testosterone production) will result in an approximate 10% drop of red cell mass, as well as a decrease in red blood cell diameter and life span.

Steroids and Red Blood Cells

10% loss is rather significant. The human body has about 5 liters of blood in it. If you lose roughly 30% of it you will go into shock and at about 50% you die. 10% loss is pretty bad. Yes, I know I am talking total blood vs only red blood cells - but the percentages still stand.

 

[Megatron28]

Low T is basically anything under 300ng/dL (give or take some depending on who you ask). You have to fall MUCH lower than that to have a problem.


Steroids and Red Blood Cells

10% loss is rather significant. The human body has about 5 liters of blood in it. If you lose roughly 30% of it you will go into shock and at about 50% you die. 10% loss is pretty bad. Yes, I know I am talking total blood vs only red blood cells - but the percentages still stand.

This is a moot argument. All AAS increase red blood cell count. That is not a reason for having to include testosterone in a cycle.

 

[STAUNCHED427]

This is a moot argument. All AAS increase red blood cell count. That is not a reason for having to include testosterone in a cycle.

My opinion exactly...

Fact actually.

 

[Bigboss12]

i don't mean to come in late on this argument but i was reading through all the posts and some things that bothered me were the posts regarding studies done with the rats. studies done on rats have become in the research community very good and bad when trying drugs on them. the rats bodies and systems handle and read chemicals different then the human body and mind does meaning that don't metabolize the same or absorb nutrients or in this case testosterone the same. my point being it is very hard to relate any study done with rats to human studies that have or have not been done. rats production of testosterone especially lab rats has been known to fluctuate very widely because of the aspects of how they live this being said they do not absorb or use testosterone even remotely the same as humans do. in regards to whether testosterone is required for every cycle i can't say because it is a choice people will make for themselves. Do i think that it is safer and a good idea to run test, yes i do but that is just from running a cycle without it and not feeling as good as when i have done cycles with it. also every person reacts differently to different compounds so one person might still feel great with out the test. there have been no human studies done with steroids about whether test is needed or not needed and there probably won't ever be. the main argument i have for people who read this thread is to be safe in whatever you decided to do and make the decision you think will give you the best desired results as to reach your goal.

 

[JimiThing]

Its not called androgen replacement therapy its called testosterone replacement therapy. There is a reason for that. Not all androgens will perform the same physiological functions as testosterone does. Its a fairly simple and sound premise. Since Test production is being shut down and testosterone performs vital functions within the body and also plays a role in the formation of other hormones that play vital roles as well (ie: dht , estrogen), it only makes sense that it be present in the form of exogenous test under these circumstances. Could one not include test in a cycle? Certainly. Is it prudent to do so? Not in my opinion, no. Im not sure there is even any benefit at all to omitting it. No reason not to run it at the minimum at a trt dose in any cycle.
Very simple cost benefits assessment. There is a cost to not running it and no benefit to not running it at least at a trt dose. Its a no brainer.

 

[cybrsage]

This is a moot argument. All AAS increase red blood cell count. That is not a reason for having to include testosterone in a cycle.

Quite true, I misread the first items I found...or rather, they were incomplete. Once you pointed this out, I researched more and found you were absolutely correct.

One thing I will always do is admit when I am wrong or not complete in my information and strive to correct it. Pride is for the weak minded, it only causes one to fall.

 

[cybrsage]

Easily? I don't know about that. There are a lot of aging men with Low T who aren't anemic. Do you have anything more statistically concrete?

Sadly, no. Hormone issues in men is all but ignored by the medical community whereas hormone issues in women take center stage. Same with male specific cancers (such as prostate)...the medical community does not really seem to care. Or rather, the funding community does not seem to care. The medical community probably does, but they can only do what the funding community says they can do.