Testosterone replacement versus supplementation

Yarm

New member
... you cannot "top up" your testosterone levels by taking exogenous ntestosterone. If your body senses that it already has enough test in it, it stops making its own. Using exogenous Test doesn't "boost" your Test levels by being additive to your Natty T levels.

You need to pick a path. Stay on exogenous Test or PCT and come off. No pussyfooting around by doing a little of both. Pick one and do it right.

My understanding differs to yours. You may be right but then many others would be wrong.

Would you agree that One's T-levels are not set in stone? Sure there is an upper limit which once attained, or surpassed, will result in no more T-being produced. That is T-production is cut-off, and one's HPTA is shutdown.

As we age out T-levels drop. Why? Because the body needs less T? Or because the means of production becomes less efficient?

Fir this arguments sake, let’s assume it’s an production efficiency problem, rather than an implicit biological need to down regulate the body’s T-levels.

This is assumption is supported by research. If, for example, one diet is improved, then one’s T-levels can be bolstered. The dietary impact on raising or lowering T is well researched.

The main point here being that one’s T-levels are not set in stone.

With that established (or agreed in theory) imagine a room with a heater.

Every night this heater in ramps up and aims to heat the room to a comfortable 30C. Once 30C is reached the thermostat kicks in and tones down the heaters output as the optimal temperature has been reached.

Now imagine that heater get old, and never quite manages the room to 30 degrees. After a while is only reaches 20C and things start to fell chilly to the point where you decide to get a supporting heater.

Here you have a few options.

Option #1 - You bring in a great whopping heater to replace the old and set the thermostat to 35C. The heater gets to work and maintains the temperature at 35C at all times - 24/7 - No ups or downs, or on or off switch. Everything is nice and warm

The only problem is that the original heater shuts down altogether. With its thermostat set at a mere 30C, its need for production is completely overridden. It shuts down an grows rusty.

Alternatively the second heater brought in, Option #2, is designed to support rather than replace the existing heater in place.

This second heater only runs in the morning, after the main heater has been hard at it, doing the best it can, the support heater jumps in and raises the temp from 20 to 30 or maybe even 35 for a short while, but then shuts off.

Toward the evening things cool down again and the main heater kicks in and does its job as best it can.

While a balmy 35 temperature is not maintained at all times, it is achieved most to the time. As a bonus, the main heater remains is use, and doesn’t rust up.

A third option (#3) is this support heater has it thermostat set to 40. Every day its cranks up and an raises the temperature until 40C and at the end of the day it’s still 35C. As a result the main heater doesn’t switch on. Here the new, supporting heater simply takes over the job, much like in option 1, except that it works in 24hours bursts – up and down. And again the problem is that the main, original heater shuts down.

Obviously these three scenarios are meant to serve as an analogy for shots (#1), creams at a minimal dose (#2) and creams at a maximal dose (#3).

It one’s optimal T-levels is 900 say, and one takes shots that raise one’s T beyond that – for even part of a week. Then one’s natural production will shut down. Toward the end of the week. When one’s T-levels drop below 900, the problem of ramping production back up becomes an issue (#1)

With creams however, one normal level of 700 may be topped up of a morning to say 1000. Given the rapid decay, by night fall ones levels are back to 700 and one’s own production kicks off again (#2)

If the creams are overused however and levels are raised to 1200 say, then one’s natural production is held off. The next day more cream is required to hit that excessive goal of 1200, and endogenous production is further shut down (#3).

The other key factor is the Androgen receptors. These are spread out throughout the body and, in response to a lack of free T, will shut down according to Herrings law. That is, the most important will stay receptive, while the least will shut down and leave the free T for where it’s needed most. This is seen in reverse where raised T will cure low-t symptoms in the reverse order. Typically mind symptoms and mood symptoms will resolve certain physical symptoms. Although key issues such as insulin sensitivity are prioritised.

All this, of course, is purely theoretical and untested. But still, such theory or ‘armchair philosophy’ is the start or scientific enquiry.

Thoughts?
 
You are exaggerating the pulsatile nature of T production to support the concept of "boosting" existing production. You might find a lot of anecdotal support for it, but it's still just wishful thinking.

The suppressive nature of even low doses of mild androgens such as oxandrolone is well documented in numerous studies. Refer, for example, to Dr. Scally's book "Testosterone: a question of muscle".

Show me some examples of guys on regular doses of androgens whose LH and FSH is not in the tank.
 
I don't want to entertain your heater/thermostat anaology. I will just provide a few comments:

1) If you think you can perfectly time the ups and downs of your natural testosterone production to fit the half life of your test cream and the resulting estrogen aromatization more power to you. Good luck and please report back on how it goes. Make sure to check LH and FSH levels.

2) Testosterone levels actually increase as males get older. Well into your 40's.

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3) I don't think you are considering all the factors in the HPTA Feedback Loop with your simple Top Up Analogy. You have to look at LH, FSH, Estrogen and Androgens. The pituitary will stop producing LH when it senses that either estrogen is high or Androgens are high. It doesn't require that both be high. And you are only considering the half-life of your testosterone cream. You have not considered the half life of the estrogen that will be aromatized. Creams are notorious for aromatizing heavily.
 
1) If you think you can perfectly time the ups and downs of your natural testosterone production to fit the half life of your test cream and the resulting estrogen aromatization more power to you. Good luck and please report back on how it goes. Make sure to check LH and FSH levels.

The advice from the prescribing clinic was to apply the cream first thing every morning. This being when Test levels are highest and when the body's own natural production ramps down.

As my levels were only moderately low, the dosage I was given was possibly too high. The creams would work ok for a few days, then not. The result was that I started to cycle the medication. 4 days on, four days off.

Once I upped the dosage, as per their recommendation, the off days would result in a crash, presumably because my own production had shut down.

I started on 50mg per day, then 75, then 100.

Now I'm on a mere 25mg a day, and I feel fine so far. It feels like an even balance and mild Insulin resistance issues are resolved (I won't go into the details but the first symptom to disappear is a tendency for yeast in my system to "bloom" which us the resulting excess sugars hanging around in the blood.

It's only been three days on this Revused approach, this after having returned to my natty levels.

My new physician (works with Crisler) has prescribed Test IM 100pw, but I'm just experimenting with this approach first.

If it works it works. If not I'm faced with the dilemma of mildly low test, along with low T symptoms, that could eventually lead to diabetes, or going on TRT for the remainder of my days.

As I see it I've nothing to loose. I've looked into many avenues, mainly diet related, and can bring the insulin resistance issues under a degree of control. But nothing resolves the problem as quickly/miraculously as exo-T.
 
3) I don't think you are considering all the factors in the HPTA Feedback Loop with your simple Top Up Analogy. You have to look at LH, FSH, Estrogen and Androgens. The pituitary will stop producing LH when it senses that either estrogen is high or Androgens are high. It doesn't require that both be high. And you are only considering the half-life of your testosterone cream. You have not considered the half life of the estrogen that will be aromatized. Creams are notorious for aromatizing heavily.

When on 100mg per day my E levels were OK. However my physician suggested that apart from Oestrogen there are many types of E that aren't tested for and are not understood. Test level was at 38 (or 1104).
 
The advice from the prescribing clinic was to apply the cream first thing every morning. This being when Test levels are highest and when the body's own natural production ramps down.

As my levels were only moderately low, the dosage I was given was possibly too high. The creams would work ok for a few days, then not. The result was that I started to cycle the medication. 4 days on, four days off.

Once I upped the dosage, as per their recommendation, the off days would result in a crash, presumably because my own production had shut down.

I started on 50mg per day, then 75, then 100.

Now I'm on a mere 25mg a day, and I feel fine so far. It feels like an even balance and mild Insulin resistance issues are resolved (I won't go into the details but the first symptom to disappear is a tendency for yeast in my system to "bloom" which us the resulting excess sugars hanging around in the blood.

It's only been three days on this Revused approach, this after having returned to my natty levels.

My new physician (works with Crisler) has prescribed Test IM 100pw, but I'm just experimenting with this approach first.

If it works it works. If not I'm faced with the dilemma of mildly low test, along with low T symptoms, that could eventually lead to diabetes, or going on TRT for the remainder of my days.

As I see it I've nothing to loose. I've looked into many avenues, mainly diet related, and can bring the insulin resistance issues under a degree of control. But nothing resolves the problem as quickly/miraculously as exo-T.

Good luck. I hope it works for you.
 
When on 100mg per day my E levels were OK. However my physician suggested that apart from Oestrogen there are many types of E that aren't tested for and are not understood. Test level was at 38 (or 1104).

Here is some information from Wikipedia for you regarding the different types of estrogen.

The three major naturally occurring estrogens in women are estrone (E1), estradiol (E2), and estriol (E3). Estradiol is the predominant estrogen during reproductive years both in terms of absolute serum levels as well as in terms of estrogenic activity. During menopause, estrone is the predominant circulating estrogen and during pregnancy estriol is the predominant circulating estrogen in terms of serum levels. Though estriol is the most plentiful of the three estrogens it is also the weakest, whereas estradiol is the strongest with a potency of approximately 80 times that of estriol.[citation needed] Thus, estradiol is the most important estrogen in non-pregnant females who are between the menarche and menopause stages of life. However, during pregnancy this role shifts to estriol, and in postmenopausal women estrone becomes the primary form of estrogen in the body. Another type of estrogen called estetrol (E4) is produced only during pregnancy. All of the different forms of estrogen are synthesized from androgens, specifically testosterone and androstenedione, by the enzyme aromatase.
 
The advice from the prescribing clinic was to apply the cream first thing every morning. This being when Test levels are highest and when the body's own natural production ramps down.
*snip*
You've pretty much had it laid out for you, but I just wanted to point out that it's in the clinic's best interests to convince you that it works this way, as it keeps you purchasing their goods. (unless they're just trying to mimic circadian rhythm, which is different)

I recommend you do some reading on how the hypothalamus regulates gnrh via the negative feedback loop, which in turn calls for LH from the pituitary gland. It's a very sensitive system, and can be disrupted permanently with exogenous hormone use.

You either need TRT, or you don't. As a diabetic secondary to prolonged hypogonadism, I do truly hope that things work out for you - but also want you to understand that TRT isn't a temporary fix - it's a life-long decision to be made.

My .02c :)



Oh, I thought about commenting on your heater analogy, but it would bore everyone to tears as I used to do heat loss calculations when planning HVAC systems. Heat moves like a fluid, so it doesn't really work that way. :)
 
You are exaggerating the pulsatile nature of T production to support the concept of "boosting" existing production. You might find a lot of anecdotal support for it, but it's still just wishful thinking.

The suppressive nature of even low doses of mild androgens such as oxandrolone is well documented in numerous studies. Refer, for example, to Dr. Scally's book "Testosterone: a question of muscle".

Show me some examples of guys on regular doses of androgens whose LH and FSH is not in the tank.

I called a pharmacy/manufacturer of transdermal creams. The head pharmacist confirmed that creams do cause a downturn of the HPTA, but for some reason the testes remain active and thus there is no need for HCG.
The argument was that creams are not as suppressive to the HPTA as are injections. Exactly why was not entered into.
 
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I called a pharmacy/manufacturer of transdermal creams. The head pharmacist confirmed that creams do cause a downturn of the HPTA, but for some reason the testes remain active and thus there is no need for HCG.
The argument was that creams are not as suppressive to the HPTA as are injections. Exactly why was not entered into.

That's just false. Take enough testosterone in any form and it will shut down your HPTA. Your body doesn't care how it gets test.
 
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That's just false. Take enough testosterone in any form and it will shut down your HPTA. Your body doesn't care how it gets test.

Agreed. I've always had issues with the notion that certain drugs or certain dosages shut you down 'hard' or more than others. It's pretty simple, any exogenous androgens will shut you down, whether that's 100mg or 1000mg a week and whether it's test or tren or deca, etc.
 
I called a pharmacy/manufacturer of transdermal creams. The head pharmacist confirmed that creams do cause a downturn of the HPTA, but for some reason the testes remain active and thus there is no need for HCG.
The argument was that creams are not as suppressive to the HPTA as are injections. Exactly why was not entered into.

100% wrong. There is nothing to further to "enter into"... any further details he provided would also be wrong.
 
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Yarm, look at the following table and note what happens to LH vs. Baseline for given testosterone dosages. You will see that exogenous testosterone, even at low doses, is suppressive to the HPTA.

AJPENDO : Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab

Yes, that is consistent with what the pharmacist said.

Why they don't see the need to make mention of testicular shrinkage as a side effect in their product description still puzzles me.

The product description (andro fort) also suggests that the creams raise test levels for only an 8-10 hour period and appear to pack a large an intraday swing.

Here is where creams must differ from IM TRT.

The androgel PDS Also makes no mention of gonad shrinkage as a possible side effect.

Thanks for digging up the study.
 
Yes, that is consistent with what the pharmacist said.

Why they don't see the need to make mention of testicular shrinkage as a side effect in their product description still puzzles me.

The product description (andro fort) also suggests that the creams raise test levels for only an 8-10 hour period and appear to pack a large an intraday swing.

Here is where creams must differ from IM TRT.

The androgel PDS Also makes no mention of gonad shrinkage as a possible side effect.

Thanks for digging up the study.

It is not consistent. You said your pharmacist said the testicles "remain active" when using creams. They will not be active in the presence of exogenous testosterone as shown by the LH readingss in the study.
 
It is not consistent. You said your pharmacist said the testicles "remain active" when using creams. They will not be active in the presence of exogenous testosterone as shown by the LH readingss in the study.
I was referring to the HPTA shutdown.
I could call up again and ask why he thinks there is no concern for testicular shrinkage when using creams. And why it's not listed as a side effect.
I'm not saying I disagree with you, only that I've been given conflicting information by both the original clinic and this pharmacist.
 
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I was referring to the HPTA shutdown.
I could call up again and ask why he thinks there is no concern for testicular shrinkage when using creams. And why it's not listed as a side effect.
I'm not saying I disagree with you, only that I've been given conflicting information by both the original clinic and this pharmacist.

You realize the testicles are the T in HPTA, right?

Just apply coomon sense. If your testicles stop making testosterone they are going to atrophy. That's just the way the body works.
 
Understand in no uncertian terms using test shuts down natural test production. Thats why we dont use test for pct. How cool would that be?

Now I have seen it all:)
 
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