Trying to decide what i want to do next with this cycle.

[DeepSea4Life]

Hey guys, currently on a 12 week Test only cycle.

5'10
225 lbs

250 mg test C E 3.5 days
250 iu HCg 3.5 days
.25 mg Arimidex EOD

4 weeks in and feel great. Nothing seems out of the norm. Gained strength and size. Sex drive is great heightened mood etc. My question now is should I just ride out the cycle as is or can I do something else for an extra edge such as increase mg of test or add some compounds this late in?

Another question I have: I don't want to take 14-16 weeks off cycle. Ultimately I want the large chisel look so ill probably need to run another bulking cycle before I cut. I don't want to lose half my gains while waiting 3 months to start again. and then another 3 months before cutting . Some guidance?

If I only took 4-6 weeks off pct could be counterproductive right?

What is minimum time to take off before starting again with no pct

 

[halfwit]

I don't think you really understand what a PCT is. When you take AAS, you turn off your natural production of testosterone. PCT is to help you transition between going from AAS to your own production again. As the drugs used are SERMs, they also help prevent issues with gynecomastia as estradiol rebound combined with a lower testosterone may cause breast tissue to form.

PCT in and of itself isn't what decreases mass or stops you from being productive in the gym; it's the fact that you're no longer on AAS, and your own production isn't working yet. The SERMs actually trigger natural (well, forced) release of your own testosterone as the hormones leave your body.

Skipping PCT would just leave you hypogonadal (low T) while your body tries to recuperate and return to its original state. This would in fact be WORSE for you, as you won't have that cushion from the SERMs doing their thing.

You're walking that thin line already where you have to take a seriously deep look at how important this is to you. Your first cycle, and you're already thinking of running back to back cycles; which WILL inevitably lead to TRT. Maybe not this time, maybe not the next - but make no mistake, it WILL happen if you continue with AAS use. The big difference being that allowing your body to recover through PCT and taking time off puts the odds better in your favor.

Do you want to chase this idea, and willfully commit to the needle for the rest of your life? Or perhaps do you want to enjoy this recreationally, and try to keep your testicles as your chief source of hormones?

Time off = time on + PCT. That has been regurgitated thousands of times for a very good reason.

My .02c

 

[DeepSea4Life]

I don't think you really understand what a PCT is. When you take AAS, you turn off your natural production of testosterone. PCT is to help you transition between going from AAS to your own production again. As the drugs used are SERMs, they also help prevent issues with gynecomastia as estradiol rebound combined with a lower testosterone may cause breast tissue to form.

PCT in and of itself isn't what decreases mass or stops you from being productive in the gym; it's the fact that you're no longer on AAS, and your own production isn't working yet. The SERMs actually trigger natural (well, forced) release of your own testosterone as the hormones leave your body.

Skipping PCT would just leave you hypogonadal (low T) while your body tries to recuperate and return to its original state. This would in fact be WORSE for you, as you won't have that cushion from the SERMs doing their thing.

You're walking that thin line already where you have to take a seriously deep look at how important this is to you. Your first cycle, and you're already thinking of running back to back cycles; which WILL inevitably lead to TRT. Maybe not this time, maybe not the next - but make no mistake, it WILL happen if you continue with AAS use. The big difference being that allowing your body to recover through PCT and taking time off puts the odds better in your favor.

Do you want to chase this idea, and willfully commit to the needle for the rest of your life? Or perhaps do you want to enjoy this recreationally, and try to keep your testicles as your chief source of hormones?

Time off = time on + PCT. That has been regurgitated thousands of times for a very good reason.

My .02c

Thank you for the detailed reply. I understand what PCT is and how it effects your body accept one thing. I don't understand everything 100 percent taking all variables into account. body type, chemicals being used, length of time on AAS and at what dosage. HCG dosages, AI's etc.. My concern with Running a PCT with only a few weeks off is - Wouldnt it be harder on my body to go from little to no production back to regular production and then back to little to none again within 6 weeks? I should have formed my question better. If the Natty production can be shut down for 8-12 weeks and recover sooner with the help of Nolva and clomid, Can it be shut down for 20 and act the same? What dictates how hard it is to come back? Mg of chemicals being used? or does duration of cycle weigh larger? Your individual bodies ability to rebound and heal? I would not run back to back cycles before I felt comfortable with the idea based on research done. I wont lie tho I have a few guys at the gym who use all year round if not close, they seem to think the body will jump back no matter what outside of extreme cases. I'm not as convinced. leads me to this forum.

to clarify, in your informed opinion pct and time off equal to pct and on cycle are 100 percent necessary no two ways about it right? http://www.steroidology.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif

If so, shorter heavier cycles seem the way to go

 

[oldmusclemike]

Why don't you try to finish the first cycle successfully before you add on or go planning. With your attitude I can tell you by experience you are already mentally addicted to AAS. Just saying.

By your two posts it is evident that you do not have a good understanding of how AAS works, the possible sides, and much, much more.

It would be prudent of you to go the distance and complete 100% of this 1st cycle the way it is with good results while you lean more both through reading and monitoring your own body as it changes as well as how you work through the PCT and the plain post cycle situations.


If you think you are going to lose all your gains just because you are off cycle then you don't understand what your gains truly are. Like the pro''s spend a lifetime training what they are doing is growing / building their LMM. After all when they diet for a show they dry out, they shed the fat tissue and loose the water but they don't loose their gains. Understand that. They continue to train and eat and rest to keep from atrophy and muscle wasting.

You lack a lot of understanding of what this is all about The object it should be is to build muscle at an above natty potential rate while doing it safely and to retain natural production.

 

[oldmusclemike]

I Quote you : I don't understand everything 100 percent taking all variables into account. body type, chemicals being used, length of time on AAS and at what dosage. HCG dosages, AI's etc.. : End Quote

You see this is why we start with Test only and go thru the duration of a cycle and then do cycles in progression, so that we get in tune with OUR OWN body and learn how the compounds and diets and more intense workouts affect us/ you as an individual.

WE research and ask questions about our cycle in progress and report and get input as to what we are learning so we can make educated planned cycles. Your body as well as body type reacts as to you and not the same as me. There of course are the basics/ rule of thumb results. The difference comes out to be what compounds I choose and the length of time my cycle as opposed to you or him....... When someone doesn't have a handle as most newbies on this idea then they don't have a real good understanding of the safe and most efficient way to cycle for BB

 

[halfwit]

Thank you for the detailed reply. I understand what PCT is and how it effects your body accept one thing. I don't understand everything 100 percent taking all variables into account. body type, chemicals being used, length of time on AAS and at what dosage. HCG dosages, AI's etc.. My concern with Running a PCT with only a few weeks off is - Wouldnt it be harder on my body to go from little to no production back to regular production and then back to little to none again within 6 weeks?

I think you missed the point of my post. You're getting way too ahead of yourself as Mike indicated. Do you know where the myth that there's a HUGE loss of mass post-cycle comes from?

Guys that did it wrong, didn't use an AI, blew up like water balloons - then deflated afterwards. It's far too common, which is why it still persists today.

My point was that you should do the COMPLETE cycle AND recovery first. Why take a break at all if it's only going to be six weeks? Either way, you're taking a risk. Doses, time on, body composition, drugs used, etc do impact some variables, but it's so much easier to think of it as binary: you either recover, or you don't.

I should have formed my question better. If the Natty production can be shut down for 8-12 weeks and recover sooner with the help of Nolva and clomid, Can it be shut down for 20 and act the same? What dictates how hard it is to come back? Mg of chemicals being used? or does duration of cycle weigh larger? Your individual bodies ability to rebound and heal? I would not run back to back cycles before I felt comfortable with the idea based on research done. I wont lie tho I have a few guys at the gym who use all year round if not close, they seem to think the body will jump back no matter what outside of extreme cases. I'm not as convinced. leads me to this forum.

For starters, dudes at the gym are often 99% wrong 99% of the time. I hear some of the most ridiculous shit in my gym (why are they even discussing use of illegal substances in the open anyway?!) and I have to keep my mouth shut even I know that they'll probably listen because I'm bigger than them. Homework first, then put stuff in your body!

Every single variable you listed can impact recovery, sure! But here's the caveat; no two people are the same, nobody reacts the same, and there aren't any rules set in stone about just how far we can push that envelope. A great example of this would be caffeine. I can take over 2g of caffeine and take a nap, yet my wife's heart would explode. We're both human, and we should have a similar reaction, right? Not how it works unfortunately. This is the same with AAS.

To me it seems that you're building up some expectations that may be unrealistic. This isn't a race (even with a TON of hormones, there are limits) and it's always a good idea to take baby steps here. Six weeks off is pretty much the same as not coming off at all in the grand scheme of things.

to clarify, in your informed opinion pct and time off equal to pct and on cycle are 100 percent necessary no two ways about it right?

If so, shorter heavier cycles seem the way to go

This again comes to risk management. Are you willing at this point to take a chance you won't recover? It honestly could happen from this cycle by itself, but NOBODY knows for certain. The short cycle theory sounds great, except it's still suppressing your pituitary, which makes it grumpy, which may just get it to take a vacation permanently.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[DeepSea4Life]

Makes good sense.. I appreciate the input from both you guys. AAS is definitely addicting and so far its my favorite drug I've ever used. But I guess if a guy gets too far into it its not much different than a meth head and just ruins himself over time, so.. And makes a lot of sense about the loss of gains myth (which I honestly believe it can be avoided if cycles are done properly) but let me clarify. If my genetic potential allows me to bench around 405 lbs, and with a cycle I reach a new 1rm of 450 lbs. the same with squat, curls, deadlifts etc, theoretically during my off time I could maintain these gains while not increasing the 1rm I achieved during cycle until next cycle then possibly gain even more? So like an inch worm the aas allows for more gains above genetic potential.. on cycle + 5 lbs off cycle maintain on cycle +5 lbs off cycle maintain etc. right?

Is there such thing as genetic freaks? I mean, I want to look like friggin Arnold in the next 3-5 years. I have similar natural build other than I am shorter. This probably sounds like an unrealistic expectation but you cant be afraid to fail. gotta dig deep and give it all you can if you want something bad enough.

Whos the lucky sons of Btchs that get a sponsor and a team of doctors and trainers these days??

 

[oldmusclemike]

Take a look at anyone that you like, size and definition. That friggin Arnold look and find out how long they trained to get there. Most any athlete in any sport that reaches the level ( body type) that you are talking about has been training for 8-10 years.

 

[halfwit]

Makes good sense.. I appreciate the input from both you guys. AAS is definitely addicting and so far its my favorite drug I've ever used. But I guess if a guy gets too far into it its not much different than a meth head and just ruins himself over time, so.. And makes a lot of sense about the loss of gains myth (which I honestly believe it can be avoided if cycles are done properly) but let me clarify. If my genetic potential allows me to bench around 405 lbs, and with a cycle I reach a new 1rm of 450 lbs. the same with squat, curls, deadlifts etc, theoretically during my off time I could maintain these gains while not increasing the 1rm I achieved during cycle until next cycle then possibly gain even more? So like an inch worm the aas allows for more gains above genetic potential.. on cycle + 5 lbs off cycle maintain on cycle +5 lbs off cycle maintain etc. right?

Is there such thing as genetic freaks? I mean, I want to look like friggin Arnold in the next 3-5 years. I have similar natural build other than I am shorter. This probably sounds like an unrealistic expectation but you cant be afraid to fail. gotta dig deep and give it all you can if you want something bad enough.

Whos the lucky sons of Btchs that get a sponsor and a team of doctors and trainers these days??

Not sure I'd go as far as comparing hormones to amphetamines or other recreational drugs. After all, I can't say I've ever heard of someone sucking a dick for a pin of testosterone.

Define genetic potential. I personally view it as the mass you can sustain with appropriate caloric intake and stimulation at your own production of testosterone/growth hormone/etc.

Exceed this value, and sure - it doesn't make sense that you can maintain it off cycle. The problem with this is that how do you know what this limit is? Training for multiple years can help, but at what point do you call it a max? It's easy to see guys that have traps on their traps and make that's assessment, but they never come off either. Add to this the fact that anyone that has spent enough time in the lifestyle will tell you - your work is NEVER done.

I guess the closest I can explain the difference between being on and not, is you recover much faster and the weight becomes easier (to a point) to move properly. You might set new max weight achievements, but there will be a decrease when you come off. Going by a 1rm is tricky because that's the absolute best you could do under very specific circumstances that you may not be able to achieve again unless you meet those circumstances again.

Can you meet a 405 1rm and duplicate it off cycle? Maybe. But if you can't, that doesn't mean you somehow are losing mass, and need to hop back on immediately. Heck, there are days where my sleep was lacking, or diet was off, and I have to decrease weight - even while on. I could probably force it up, and injure myself, but that doesn't do anything for me in the long-term.

It's all about those long-term goals brother. You mention obtaining a specific press at a specific weight; stick at this long enough, and you'll meet that goal as long as it's reasonable. If you're pressing 365 now for reps, it's just a matter of time before that 405 is not only doable, but repeatable. Just comes down to when.

Besides, if your long-term goal is to have a physique similar to Ahhhnold, you need to stop focusing on weight altogether. I'm very guilty of this as it feels good to see five 45lb plates on a bar, then reach for a sixth. But if that really isn't what's going to build up those pecs (density vs size), why push for that in the first place? Focus on the movements, learn to control those muscles with your mind, enable your body to contract so tightly at the end of a rep, that you swear you're going to rip through your skin.

That's how you'll put on size. Yes, that (for the most part) does stay as long as everything else is met. Eat right, train smart, sleep well, and as long as you're not hormone deficient - you'll keep most of the muscles you worked hard for.

Genetics matter when you're already at the top, competing with guys that have every advantage you do, but have been bestowed gifts by mommy nature to have better tie ins, respond better to the drugs, don't suffer negative sides, and just seem to grow no matter what. It's not fair, but that's just how it is. I'll never take home an Olympia Sandow; I know that while I have the determination to push just as hard, I'm a foot taller than most of these guys and I will need to be twice as big to have the same appearance. So I accept that, train hard, and will be happy to be the best version of ME. If you know deep down that this holds true for you, there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't mean you've given up, it just means that you know you're not Arnold Schwarzenegger.

In my experience, folks that have a team have money to begin with, or have achieved a level of notoriety before they got to that point - attracting the types to help them progress. It's like seeing this 22 year old kid pull up to my gym in cars that cost more than my house. He didn't earn it, he just happened to have been born into it.

Doesn't mean I have to like him though. .

I realize I'm all over the place in my reply, but hopefully I answered some of your questions and gave you food for thought. Master the diet and training, and the drugs are just icing on the cake - they're just a tool, nothing more.

 

[oldmusclemike]

Ah hahahaaa !!! I'm soooo confused now However that was a good reply n post halfwit. Even with some skipping around there are many good points made by you. Some good for thought items.

This is important : Quote , I guess the closest I can explain the difference between being on and not, is you recover much faster and the weight becomes easier (to a point) to move properly.You might set new max weight achievements, but there will be a decrease when you come off. Going by a 1rm is tricky because that's the absolute best you could do under very specific circumstances that you may not be able to achieve again unless you meet those circumstances again. : End quote.
A very good definition IMOP made by halfwit : genetic potential. I personally view it as the mass you can sustain with appropriate caloric intake and stimulation at your own production of testosterone/growth hormone/etc. end quote

Also OP being a recovering addict 5 years clean I can safely say that being addicted to AAS holds nothing like opiates, or meth. Some say to me well you're not clean mike, ha fvck you if you only knew what it was like , the drugs, the black outs, rages, jail and just lost time money, memories and friends n family. The withdrawals, hell don't even tell me I'm not clean n SOBER. Just had to give that up , my 0.2 cents

 

[halfwit]

You're absolutely right Mike, that's how I know the difference too. Opiates had me by the balls; I'm very lucky that I was mostly immobile during that time so I couldn't do anything too stupid.

HOWEVER, I've done plenty of really retarded things for my other addiction - vagina. Good grief, I can't get enough of it! Ahhhhhhh!






Sorry Mike, I know that's a tough subject at the moment.

 

[oldmusclemike]

Yea and I can't get any .

Never, never did I think it was possible to be in this situation. I sometimes wonder IF..."IF" I am being punished because of those days when I was traveling and just fvcking everything that came my way while I had a wife and a family of 3 kids at home. The 80's no aids to speak of. And I'm a BB competitor while a corporate exec. hotel after hotel, happy hours and they just came at me and I took them on.

What a fvckin skunk and now ..............

I took life and all of my riches and my blessings for granted. Moving too fast to even think to be grateful. .............................

Back to the thread !

 

[DeepSea4Life]

GOOD SHIT GUYS. This is the feedback ive been looking for! Definitely motivating to me! I read the reply a couple times each just to soak it all up and makes great sense. And I would have to agree on the "genetic potential" definition.
A slow nickel makes more than a fast quarter I always think. And applies to bb too I think. Do more damage getting in a hurry than training properly and safely with lots and lots of hard work.. Thanks again for the insight, much appreciated!

 

[DeepSea4Life]

hey another thing I could touch on this thread.. now that ive committed to taking time off as should be, this is my planned pct 10 days after last injection

clomid 75/50/50/50
nolva 20/20/10/10

anything wrong with that?

 

[Gainjin260]

GOOD SHIT GUYS. This is the feedback ive been looking for! Definitely motivating to me! I read the reply a couple times each just to soak it all up and makes great sense. And I would have to agree on the "genetic potential" definition.
A slow nickel makes more than a fast quarter I always think. And applies to bb too I think. Do more damage getting in a hurry than training properly and safely with lots and lots of hard work.. Thanks again for the insight, much appreciated!

Happy to see you taking advice from people who know far more than both you and I. Keep doing things right.