Varsity Sports w lowT - Young Blood Hoping to compete? (labs included)

[Broshifstalin]

Basically as the title states Ive been dealing with Low-T for a quite awhile, and haven't gotten anywhere with the doctors.

In the past few weeks Ive seen a specialist who refuses to do anything till the 1st of November. Problem is I feel like crap due to the low T and additionally I want to swim competitively, actually I took off the entire summer to train and go through physio to get up to a level where I could hold my own. The problem is that I want to independently run a SERM test on 25mg nolva eod for 8 weeks to hopefully raise my T and see if I'm secondary or primary. Training for varsity swimming is at 6am every morning and I can't see myself either falling asleep to be rested for then or waking up at that time and being able to preform, in addition to the daily wear on my stressed rotators. I chose nolva over clomid because I found a study " Hypogonadism as a cause of recurrent muscle injury in a high level soccer player. A case report." and was hoping I might fall into this category of athlete that would benefit from the usage of it.

link to study - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7591395

The second problem is nolva is a prohibited substance in sporting competitions, but so it seems is testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) so I'd be screwed either way - I'm willing to risk this if nolva will fix the problems im currently having w my low test ie. no libido, no morning wood, depression anxiety, foggy memory, terrible times falling asleep, terrible often broken up sleep and the injury prevention would be a bonus.
but I'm checking here first to determine are there any supplements I could consider instead of Nolva that would not be banned or detected and show if I am primary or secondary (would DAA work?)

Bloodwork

Oct 7 2011 Range:
Total test 12.4 (7.6-31.4 nmol/L)
Prolactin 16 (<18)
Free test 24.7 (31.0-94.0 pmol/L)

Nov 23 2011
Free test 40.5 (31.0-94.0 pmol/L)

Feb 6 2012
Free test 25.4 (31.0-94.0 pmol/L)

May 4 2012
Total test 10.0 (8.4-28.7 nmol/L)
Free test 25.4 (31.0-94.0 pmol/L)
Bioav. test 4.8 (2.0-14.0 nmol/L)
Follitropin(FSH) 4 (2-8)
Lutropin (LH) 4 (2-6)
Sex Hormone Bind. Globulin 33.3 (10-70.0 nmol/L)

June 8th
Homocysteine 7.0umol/L (<=15)
TOTAL PSA 0.37ug/L (0.00-4.00)

Lutropin (LH) 2 IU/L (2-6)
Progesterone 2 (<4)

Estradiol-17 BETA <70pmol/L (<150)

Total test 11.1 nmol/L (8.4-28.7)
FREE test 32.8 pmol/L (31-94)
DHEA-S 7.2umol/L (7.6-17.4)
8AM Cortisol 579 nmol/L (NO STANDARD VALUE LISTED)

 

[Megatron28]

First, how old are you? I'm also left wondering about cause or effect here. Are your symptoms caused by low T or is your low T a symptom of your other problems (poor sleep, anxiety, depression, etc)? Since you are referencing varsity sports I am going to guess that you are fairly young. I would exhaust all other possibilities before starting testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for the rest of you hopefully long life. But give is more info to see what ideas we can come up with in this forum.

 

[Broshifstalin]

First, how old are you? I'm also left wondering about cause or effect here. Are your symptoms caused by low T or is your low T a symptom of your other problems (poor sleep, anxiety, depression, etc)? Since you are referencing varsity sports I am going to guess that you are fairly young. I would exhaust all other possibilities before starting testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for the rest of you hopefully long life. But give is more info to see what ideas we can come up with in this forum.

I'm 22, currently been dealing with the problems with a little over 2 years. I sit at 5'10 currently and weigh 157 with a bf or 8-9%, When I got my first levels I let it get up to 12% for a few months but dropped back down when it didn't help. My family doctor was suspicious with the anxiety and depression symptoms and insisted I try meds, I went on wellbutrin for 3 weeks before the feeling of being amped killed my sleep schedule (I would be still awake at 3am then be awake for 7 or 8 at which point it wouldn't let me sleep again) even when I switched to taking it in the am. He then switched me to pristiq which turned me into an absolute jerk with a hairpin trigger for anger and I stopped that within 3 weeks when it looked to be getting dangerous for the rest of my family.

When I went to my specialist in Toronto I scored a 9 out of 10 on the Low Testosterone questionnaire, but also scored extremely Low on the Prostate questionnaire indicating to him that I have the "urinary system of an old man" often times unable to fully empty the tank, having to pee more than once every 2 hours (I'd say for me between every 30-45 minutes) and waking up in the night to go pee 3-4 times a night as well as other red flags for him.


In high school I was on a very strict diet, which caused me to loose quite a bit of weight.
At 19 i went on Accutane for 6 months (dosages: 40mg x1month, 80mgx2months, 80/120mg eodx3 months),
I lived in a residence the last two summers and at the time my eyes would swell shut, and I needed to go to the hospital quite a few times and would be looking like the elephant man around my eyelids - as it turns out it was covered in black mold, and I had a severe allergic reaction to its toxicity
Following the black mold I couldn't swim competitively due to chlorine now effecting my eyelids and making them swell shut SO
2 years ago in a rugby training camp I took a concussion to the right temple that left me without hearing for 3 weeks in my right ear.
After the concussion I was banned from any game with physical contact game and Rowed Crew, From September - November I trained 3 hours in the morning, did weight training, slept 4-6 hours a night and ate a below my caloric needs - by the end of season I couldn't walk up 3 stairs without being winded, I was sick, and in my last few races my skin would molt purple and lips and gums would be blue ect...


Thanks for taking a interest in my case - I would rather not be on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) either but if it will make things more bearable then the sides associated with it would be bearable for me

 

[300winmag]

Your numbers do not look that bad and as said earlier I would check out your eating, sleeping, and other habits such as alcohol, tobacco or even other drug use if thats what you are doing. At your age you will probably have a hard time getting a doc to write you anything or even a T clinic. You may want to have thyroid checked, liver function, defecincies such as low iron B vitamins etc. I am younger but not quite 22 and trust me if you dont have to, you dont want to go on this, not saying its horrible, but taking a shot or doing cream every week/day for the rest of your life is not ideal. As far as your sports, I guess you would have to check with them, Im guessing even if you are taking it legally it still may be prohibited.

If it were me I would have a full panel of everything done on your blood including what I mentioned. Then from there I would start checking my sleep habits, am I going to be relatively the same time every night and getting 7-9hours of sleep, am I eating three times a day and not chugging down pop or monsters all day. Do I have a balanced diet not just papa johns or pasta every night. All these things can make a big difference. Also having sex can be shown as huge health benefit. You may want to check things like andrenal fatigue or even check for some auto immune diseases.

 

[noway55]

I'm 22, currently been dealing with the problems with a little over 2 years. I sit at 5'10 currently and weigh 157 with a bf or 8-9%, When I got my first levels I let it get up to 12% for a few months but dropped back down when it didn't help. My family doctor was suspicious with the anxiety and depression symptoms and insisted I try meds, I went on wellbutrin for 3 weeks before the feeling of being amped killed my sleep schedule (I would be still awake at 3am then be awake for 7 or 8 at which point it wouldn't let me sleep again) even when I switched to taking it in the am. He then switched me to pristiq which turned me into an absolute jerk with a hairpin trigger for anger and I stopped that within 3 weeks when it looked to be getting dangerous for the rest of my family.

When I went to my specialist in Toronto I scored a 9 out of 10 on the Low Testosterone questionnaire, but also scored extremely Low on the Prostate questionnaire indicating to him that I have the "urinary system of an old man" often times unable to fully empty the tank, having to pee more than once every 2 hours (I'd say for me between every 30-45 minutes) and waking up in the night to go pee 3-4 times a night as well as other red flags for him.


In high school I was on a very strict diet, which caused me to loose quite a bit of weight.
At 19 i went on Accutane for 6 months (dosages: 40mg x1month, 80mgx2months, 80/120mg eodx3 months),
I lived in a residence the last two summers and at the time my eyes would swell shut, and I needed to go to the hospital quite a few times and would be looking like the elephant man around my eyelids - as it turns out it was covered in black mold, and I had a severe allergic reaction to its toxicity
Following the black mold I couldn't swim competitively due to chlorine now effecting my eyelids and making them swell shut SO
2 years ago in a rugby training camp I took a concussion to the right temple that left me without hearing for 3 weeks in my right ear.
After the concussion I was banned from any game with physical contact game and Rowed Crew, From September - November I trained 3 hours in the morning, did weight training, slept 4-6 hours a night and ate a below my caloric needs - by the end of season I couldn't walk up 3 stairs without being winded, I was sick, and in my last few races my skin would molt purple and lips and gums would be blue ect...


Thanks for taking a interest in my case - I would rather not be on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) either but if it will make things more bearable then the sides associated with it would be bearable for me

That's one of the most extreme instances of overtraining I've seen yet. Are you eating enough now? How frequently do you workout? I'm no expert, but you might just be running T levels into the ground because you're not giving yourself enough recovery time.

 

[Broshifstalin]

That's one of the most extreme instances of overtraining I've seen yet. Are you eating enough now? How frequently do you workout? I'm no expert, but you might just be running T levels into the ground because you're not giving yourself enough recovery time.

Yea I was retarded - I eat to maintain now - I had dropped about 6lbs over the course of that season it was brutal but I wanted to win, and I also didn't want to let my boat down --- I'm pretty sure it permanently shut me down because for summers I was working in the isolated north I would do workouts with 40lb dumbells and just from not being able to get into a gym and do compounds I would drop from my maintainable 158 to 148-146 each summer over that 2 month span.

I'm swimming 3-4 times per week(3000m) and have been using a 5 day split for weight training, like I said I'm training for swimming but I believe that once I make it ill cut down on the Lifting to 2 days a weeks since I would be swimming 5-6.
I've trained hard forever and two a days in the gym seem to increase my gains as long as I'm smart about it , In April I made the 1000 lb club w a DL of 405(x1) squat of 405 (x2) and a bench of 225(x5) all while sitting at 160. The two a day weight room sessions have been cut out though.

 

[300winmag]

yeah I agree if your going to work out that much you need to eat to maintain it. So it seems you kind of have answered your questions. Think you need to slow down one somethings and speed up on others.

 

[NateDEEzy]

You have the testosterone levels of a 85+ year old man. type in google: testosterone levels in men by age and you will find a link that details a study of this. Additionally, your prostate issues are probably due to the imbalance of testosterone to estrogen. There's a reason old men have prostate issues-> their testosterone decreases, leaving them with an imbalance and the list of symptoms you read about. There is a possibility that using testosterone can reverse this problem, I've heard of someone who reported this, although I've also heard the opposite, that testosterone made it worse. Although if I had to guess, I'd say that person probably didn't use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and the worsening of the condition was due to aromatazation. I personally believe that the issues with prostate are only issues if the individual doesn't keep their estrogen in check. Either way, if you are unhappy, seek help. I'll be the first to be on your side, as having the testosterone levels you have and being symptomatic, despite what others may say, is NOT normal.

 

[Megatron28]

NateDEEzy: The first course of action should be to understand what is causing the low T and correct it if possible. Not just throw T injections at the problem because a lab test showed low T and ignore the possible causes. It seems like in this case the low T can be corrected without needing testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) - by taking better care of himself (diet, stop over-training, adequate sleep, treat depression, etc). testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) should be a last resort - especially for a 22 year old IMHO.

 

[Broshifstalin]

NateDEEzy: The first course of action should be to understand what is causing the low T and correct it if possible. Not just throw T injections at the problem because a lab test showed low T and ignore the possible causes. It seems like in this case the low T can be corrected without needing testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) - by taking better care of himself (diet, stop over-training, adequate sleep, treat depression, etc). testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) should be a last resort - especially for a 22 year old IMHO.

The over training took place almost two years ago, the depression was not fixed through medication - it only made it worse anything he tried me on - he sent me to a psychiatrist to get a second opinion and the psychiatrist said it wasn't a cut and dry case of anxiety or depression and was likely due to hormones. I felt my best and slept my best when I was doing two a days in the spring - and I have been eating well for the last 2 years, the gains that occurred in the gym before I focused on swimming would seem to indicate that - if I were not eating enough would it not result in negative returns?
-as well If I were eating the same amount of calories and going up North for 4 months of the year and doing light training wouldn't that work as a over training recovery period, instead I was loosing weight?

I've can't sleep at all and the last thing I need is to have in this state is to have no libido and constant tiredness in university, In march I did try a test booster tribulas's enpulse and I was a new guy I had morning wood and sometimes two wet dreams a night (TMI but I never even had one during puberty, and I don't think that could be a placebo effect unlike saying "yea it made me sleep better and I was more pumped in the gym")

I just want to know if running a nolva serm test would at least provide a band aid solution (and perhaps even restart my HPTA if its has been burnt out) because right now I need my mind and body in the right place for my 4th year of university and after last years crap ride due to all the complications of the low T my marks need to be much higher if I wish to go on to my masters and that starts with some peace of mind.

*Sorry if it seems like an accusation I just want more answers to all these*

 

[Broshifstalin]

You have the testosterone levels of a 85+ year old man. type in google: testosterone levels in men by age and you will find a link that details a study of this. Additionally, your prostate issues are probably due to the imbalance of testosterone to estrogen. There's a reason old men have prostate issues-> their testosterone decreases, leaving them with an imbalance and the list of symptoms you read about. There is a possibility that using testosterone can reverse this problem, I've heard of someone who reported this, although I've also heard the opposite, that testosterone made it worse. Although if I had to guess, I'd say that person probably didn't use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and the worsening of the condition was due to aromatazation. I personally believe that the issues with prostate are only issues if the individual doesn't keep their estrogen in check. Either way, if you are unhappy, seek help. I'll be the first to be on your side, as having the testosterone levels you have and being symptomatic, despite what others may say, is NOT normal.

Ive also found the charts you've mentioned - the result was my current "specialist" seeing these claiming that Free testosterone is not a good indicator of hypogonadism, nor is Total T and only Bio-T is any good, he also said that anything within Bio-T range is golden and you wont have problems on it. When I asked him about my out of range DHEA levels the same guy also said that DHEA doesn't influence quality of life nor testosterone levels in me and in his opinion the test is a useless value that has no weight for men"

Also if the prostate issues are any indication of low testosterone I had them well before I even started training - sometimes pain or congestion in my pelvis after peeing ect as well as the other ones - they are not new and were present at least 2 years before I even stepped into a gym

 

[NateDEEzy]

Ive also found the charts you've mentioned - the result was my current "specialist" seeing these claiming that Free testosterone is not a good indicator of hypogonadism, nor is Total T and only Bio-T is any good, he also said that anything within Bio-T range is golden and you wont have problems on it. When I asked him about my out of range DHEA levels the same guy also said that DHEA doesn't influence quality of life nor testosterone levels in me and in his opinion the test is a useless value that has no weight for men"

Also if the prostate issues are any indication of low testosterone I had them well before I even started training - sometimes pain or congestion in my pelvis after peeing ect as well as the other ones - they are not new and were present at least 2 years before I even stepped into a gym

Testosterone has no weight for men? Lol is your doctor serious? Sounds like you need a second opinion. I'd ask him what his typical protocol for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is. As anyone who is up to date on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) knows, someone in your shoes would likely need: exogenous testosterone (most people experience optimal results with shots), Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), and an Aromatase inhibitor (AI).

And megatron, while I agree it's best to exhaust all other options first, but it seems his health and diet are in good order, he exercises, and when to a doctor for bloodwork and a psychiatrist to evaluate his mental state. Seems like he's taken many steps. Additionally, age means nothing-that would be like telling a 22 year old to really think about treating their diabetes cuz it's for life. Same is true for Type II diabetes, it can be controlled decently by diet and exercise, but unless you directly treat the issue at hand, you're never gonna feel all that great. Doesn't matter what age you are- I'd rather start testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) at 22 and start feeling better than wait 5 or 10 years till my testosterone finally drops "out of range" and finally treat it then, all the while feeling like Sh*t. Doesn't make sense. Additionally, testosterone has been found to be a great treatment for depression. In fact, that's what the medical community initially was using it for.

 

[RedLang]

Have you had a sleep test? Def tick the boxes mate.

Nate he said the dhea test was of no significance to men. Not test itself. I had to re read that as well haha

 

[Broshifstalin]

Testosterone has no weight for men? Lol is your doctor serious? Sounds like you need a second opinion. I'd ask him what his typical protocol for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is. As anyone who is up to date on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) knows, someone in your shoes would likely need: exogenous testosterone (most people experience optimal results with shots), Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG), and an Aromatase inhibitor (AI).

And megatron, while I agree it's best to exhaust all other options first, but it seems his health and diet are in good order, he exercises, and when to a doctor for bloodwork and a psychiatrist to evaluate his mental state. Seems like he's taken many steps. Additionally, age means nothing-that would be like telling a 22 year old to really think about treating their diabetes cuz it's for life. Same is true for Type II diabetes, it can be controlled decently by diet and exercise, but unless you directly treat the issue at hand, you're never gonna feel all that great. Doesn't matter what age you are- I'd rather start testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) at 22 and start feeling better than wait 5 or 10 years till my testosterone finally drops "out of range" and finally treat it then, all the while feeling like Sh*t. Doesn't make sense. Additionally, testosterone has been found to be a great treatment for depression. In fact, that's what the medical community initially was using it for.

Actually this is a 2nd opinion, from a specialist anyways the other specialist (a urologist) said that Bio-T was in range and gave me a script for viagra... but of course with no libido it doesn't seem a very useful. This current guy is apparently "THE GUY" for andrology in the Toronto Region and when seeking a referral to a endocrinologist in Toronto the endo's office immediately shut me down and referred me to "THE GUY."


Additionally I have not had a sleep test, it might be something to look into I'll bring it up the next time I see him.

Is an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) necessary in a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) program when treating hypogonadism for putting serum test within the higher natural levels as it looks like my E2 is under control atm?

 

[cross88]

most people shouldnt need an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) while on a true testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose, but it will vary depending on how much your body converts test to estrogen

 

[300winmag]

Actually this is a 2nd opinion, from a specialist anyways the other specialist (a urologist) said that Bio-T was in range and gave me a script for viagra... but of course with no libido it doesn't seem a very useful. This current guy is apparently "THE GUY" for andrology in the Toronto Region and when seeking a referral to a endocrinologist in Toronto the endo's office immediately shut me down and referred me to "THE GUY."


Additionally I have not had a sleep test, it might be something to look into I'll bring it up the next time I see him.

Is an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) necessary in a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) program when treating hypogonadism for putting serum test within the higher natural levels as it looks like my E2 is under control atm?

+1 on getting a second opinion. testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is not lets say serious but at the same time is and is a life long commitment. I wouldn't run with just what one doctor, specialist, Online clinic says. All of these different choices are good and have benefits but between them all money is a factor, and intelligence in each community can differ. Not bashing doctors or clinics or anything thats just truth. I mean if you need a new 10 grand roof or a new driveway you going to get just one quote I dont think so, so why would your body be any different.

 

[Broshifstalin]

+1 on getting a second opinion. testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is not lets say serious but at the same time is and is a life long commitment. I wouldn't run with just what one doctor, specialist, Online clinic says. All of these different choices are good and have benefits but between them all money is a factor, and intelligence in each community can differ. Not bashing doctors or clinics or anything thats just truth. I mean if you need a new 10 grand roof or a new driveway you going to get just one quote I dont think so, so why would your body be any different.

I agree completely with you as of right now I've been to 3 family doctors, one of whom stated that he believes it is a problem but he is not specialized enough to address it comfortably, a woman who basically pushed for anything other than Low T and told me that "25.7 is out of range for free T - but just a smidgeon out of range so it wouldn't be any cause of problems," my family GP who has been giving me the referrals (you need a referral from your GP to get into a specialist around here) - and he believes there is not a problem - actually in the referral to the Toronto specialist he mocked me, A urologist who told me my Bio-T was in range and threw Viagra at me ... and then this "specialist endo" in Toronto who believes there could be a problem but believes free T is a useless indicator and wont go into any more detail about the problem and sees me next November 1st...

My family GP has basically told me hes not going to give me anymore referrals because he has better things to do - so I'm really running out of options at this point