Week 5 test cyp

[THE-DET-OAK]

no its not always bad, extremely low = bad but somewhat low ratio = good for libido.

your free T is calculated by your SHBG

 

[I > U]

Shbg doesn't carry it to target blood...it keeps test in your nuts, or acts like a storage device in blood. Testosterone like numerous hormones travels freely in the blood and due to its cholesterol-based structure, can easily go right into the target cell without shbg.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

The current view of SHBG function differs from the way in which it was originally conceptualized, e.g to regulate certain steroids in plasma. Although of undeniable importance, this original model has been substantially broadened by the realization that SHBG is also part of a signal transduction system for steroids at the cell membrane.

In summary, the portrait of SHBG as a monofunctional
plasma steroid-binding protein has changed to that of one
with multiple functions. It appears that it not only participates
in steroid signaling at the cell membrane, but that the
regulation of its synthesis and secretion in target cells offers
new possibilities for the local modification of steroid
hormone effects.

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/175/1/113.full.pdf

I swear I don't make this shit up, I am THAT good

No test is kept in your nuts to convert, that happens instantly. Total amounts of T are the amount after DHT and E is made.

 

[Pantalones]

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/175/1/113.full.pdf

I swear I don't make this shit up, I am THAT good

No test is kept in your nuts to convert, that happens instantly. Total amounts of T are the amount after DHT and E is made.

That's all good and well, but what about me? Lol. If its not an SHBG issue, and the cyp is definitely in my system, what am I doing wrong/what is going wrong for me to notice next to nothing?

 

[300winmag]

not to be stupid, but could it just be it is what it is?

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

not to be stupid, but could it just be it is what it is?

Yes, those that have used gear before are spoiled and no matter how hard we try testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) will just never be as strong for libido as taking a hefty amount of T.

Is that you in Avi Pantalones?

The closer you are to your genetic potential the less, if any gains will be made on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), in order to surpass your genetic potential you have to take supra-physiological doses.

If you want to make testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) work you will have to closely examine everything and try to find the optimal balance.

 

[Pantalones]

Yes, those that have used gear before are spoiled and no matter how hard we try testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) will just never be as strong for libido as taking a hefty amount of T.

Is that you in Avi Pantalones?

The closer you are to your genetic potential the less, if any gains will be made on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), in order to surpass your genetic potential you have to take supra-physiological doses.

If you want to make testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) work you will have to closely examine everything and try to find the optimal balance.

Its me, but about 8 months ago and 15 pounds heavier, all mass. I cut weight for wrestling and a combination of that and the androgel not working anymore, I lost a decent amount of weight and mass. In the pic, I was near my genetic limit, but now I am nowhere close. I never cycled anything, so the spoiled concept doesn't apply for me. I was just lucky androgel worked so well for me. My libido is fine, that's not what I'm concerned about. Its strictly size. I've got the same T levels as I did a year ago, but I'm not growing like I did then. I couldn't have become insensitive to test could I?

 

[I > U]

Sertoli cells secrete it to increase concentration of test in semineferous tubules.. And the target cells so shbg...are they in the tubules as well? I bet they are

 

[Pantalones]

Gah! Test cyp is a long ester. It can take 4-6 weeks to notice any changes. Give it more time eat like a champ & workout hard. It will come.

It doesn't matter whether you're on 200 or 2,000 mg of cyp a week if you're not eating enough to support growth?

 

[300winmag]

Its me, but about 8 months ago and 15 pounds heavier, all mass. I cut weight for wrestling and a combination of that and the androgel not working anymore, I lost a decent amount of weight and mass. In the pic, I was near my genetic limit, but now I am nowhere close. I never cycled anything, so the spoiled concept doesn't apply for me. I was just lucky androgel worked so well for me. My libido is fine, that's not what I'm concerned about. Its strictly size. I've got the same T levels as I did a year ago, but I'm not growing like I did then. I couldn't have become insensitive to test could I?

This is a curous case. You change your work out routine. I mean with testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) doses of 200 really your going to only go to your natural level and whats biologically or genetically available to your body. Even if your on a cycle I would think its going only take you so far. Plus as you get older your body will only go so far. Im almost 30 and can definitnately tell a difference from when i was even 24-25.

 

[Pantalones]

This is a curous case. You change your work out routine. I mean with testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) doses of 200 really your going to only go to your natural level and whats biologically or genetically available to your body. Even if your on a cycle I would think its going only take you so far. Plus as you get older your body will only go so far. Im almost 30 and can definitnately tell a difference from when i was even 24-25.

You're mistaken by thinking 200 mg is what your body makes a week naturally. The average male (naturally) produces 5-7 mg of testosterone daily. Do the math and that's roughly 42 mg a week. Now for testosterone cyp, you have to subtract the weight of the ester, but you get something like 170 mg a week. That's a difference of approximately 128 mg a week. I'm young by the way, so age isn't an issue. I've gained about two pounds over the last three days, mainly just because of a greater emphasis on diet. I think my problem is honestly a poor diet just due to me being in college and nutrition taking the backseat for awhile there.

 

[300winmag]

You're mistaken by thinking 200 mg is what your body makes a week naturally. The average male (naturally) produces 5-7 mg of testosterone daily. Do the math and that's roughly 42 mg a week. Now for testosterone cyp, you have to subtract the weight of the ester, but you get something like 170 mg a week. That's a difference of approximately 128 mg a week. I'm young by the way, so age isn't an issue. I've gained about two pounds over the last three days, mainly just because of a greater emphasis on diet. I think my problem is honestly a poor diet just due to me being in college and nutrition taking the backseat for awhile there.

Yeah but you may be right about the figure but I dont think you are right on the concept. yes your body may produce 5-7mg a day which 35-49mg a week. Obviously you take 200mgs minus ester weight and other factors your left with less. But I think you are wrong in thinking that just because your taking an extra 128mg a week your going to get an extra 128mg a week of energy, Test levels, strength. Your body is just more effecient in processing natural Testosterone then synthetic. If you think about from the needle to your blood stream, how much is actually lost. Inevetibly you have some caught in the needled or syringe, probably not enough to matter but some. Second off in natural production the T starts already in your system. With an injection you are relying on your muscles to absorb that synthetic test, I think you would be wrong to think your muscle is absorbing all 200mgs of test when you shoot. So I would guess the amount your body actually uses is a lot less than 200mgs and probably closer to what natural figures are.

I think you concern is legit but the way you are thinking about it may be wrong, but I also may be wrong. Either way 200mgs a week is not enough to make huge dramatic changes.

 

[Pantalones]

Yeah but you may be right about the figure but I dont think you are right on the concept. yes your body may produce 5-7mg a day which 35-49mg a week. Obviously you take 200mgs minus ester weight and other factors your left with less. But I think you are wrong in thinking that just because your taking an extra 128mg a week your going to get an extra 128mg a week of energy, Test levels, strength. Your body is just more effecient in processing natural Testosterone then synthetic. If you think about from the needle to your blood stream, how much is actually lost. Inevetibly you have some caught in the needled or syringe, probably not enough to matter but some. Second off in natural production the T starts already in your system. With an injection you are relying on your muscles to absorb that synthetic test, I think you would be wrong to think your muscle is absorbing all 200mgs of test when you shoot. So I would guess the amount your body actually uses is a lot less than 200mgs and probably closer to what natural figures are.

I think you concern is legit but the way you are thinking about it may be wrong, but I also may be wrong. Either way 200mgs a week is not enough to make huge dramatic changes.

When speculation exists, we turn to lab work. Three weeks in my TT: 1,320 and free T was 32 (9-26). Its working..and its got me far above "natural" levels. I'm not saying you're wrong, you have a lot of merit in what you're saying. I just think that it depends on the person. Once its in your bloodstream, test is test. If it wasn't, they couldn't detect it in a lab. I think I just need to up the macros.

 

[300winmag]

When speculation exists, we turn to lab work. Three weeks in my TT: 1,320 and free T was 32 (9-26). Its working..and its got me far above "natural" levels. I'm not saying you're wrong, you have a lot of merit in what you're saying. I just think that it depends on the person. Once its in your bloodstream, test is test. If it wasn't, they couldn't detect it in a lab. I think I just need to up the macros.

You may be right and everybodys body is different and excepts the stuff better or worse. I might feel great and be cut at a 400 Test level where as you might need 900. It just depends. But I also think your expectations may be beyond what testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is offers or is supposed to offer. Not saying that right or wrong but it may be right. But also going beyond testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) perscribed levels for an indefinite period of time may have long terms affects that you may not see now or the medical community may not even know. So it might be something to factor into your decisions. Live now and pay later, or sacrifice now and prosper later, depends on how you want to attack it.

 

[Pantalones]

You may be right and everybodys body is different and excepts the stuff better or worse. I might feel great and be cut at a 400 Test level where as you might need 900. It just depends. But I also think your expectations may be beyond what testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is offers or is supposed to offer. Not saying that right or wrong but it may be right. But also going beyond testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) perscribed levels for an indefinite period of time may have long terms affects that you may not see now or the medical community may not even know. So it might be something to factor into your decisions. Live now and pay later, or sacrifice now and prosper later, depends on how you want to attack it.

Would you say some guys run naturally around 900-1,000 when they're young? Chances are yes. 1,000 ng natural is the same as 1,000 ng synthetic as long as it gets into the blood stream, no? I will agree with you that initially, natural T and synthetic T differ, but once the ester is removed by the enzymes in the blood, the two are the same, and you will receive the same effects. I don't think running in the low 1,000's is a huge mistake, especially when you're young and have had a history of low T. Making up for lost time I guess.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Ive been reading a lot of Dr M's stuff lately, here are his thoughts.

Dr. Mariano is a well respected Physician in the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) vertical. I've read many of his papers and I consider him one of the best. The paper below describes why men get that initial "high" when they start a new testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocol after being low for a prolonged period of time. There are also other points of interest in this paper as well. This is very good read fellows...enjoy!
------------------------------------

If a male is hypogonadal for an extended period of time, then the first exposure to testosterone replacement can be exhilarating. Then it eventually goes away.

Here is a simplification of what may be happening:

Testosterone increases dopamine signaling in the brain. Dopamine signaling promotes sex drive, attention, interest in activities, elevates mood, and is calming in effect since it also reduces norepinephrine signaling. Without testosterone, there may be an increase in dopamine receptor concentration due to the loss of dopamine signaling.

Testosterone, itself, has a calming effect on the brain. It helps reduce norepinephrine signaling. Losing testosterone loses another of the control signals on norepinephrine production.

The loss of testosterone production is also accompanied by a loss of testicular thyroid releasing hormone production. This results in a reduction in thyroid hormone production. This results in a reduction in metabolism and energy. The brain compensates by increasing norepinephrine production to increase energy. This increase in norepinephrine signaling can promote insomnia, irritability, anxiety. It also does not usually improve energy well.

Over time, with aging, thyroid hormone production is reduced. This compounds the problem of thyroid loss accompanying testosterone production loss, including a further increase in norepinephrine signaling to compensate for the loss.

Testosterone, overall, is an anti-inflammatory signal and helps govern adrenal function, preventing excessive production of cortisol. Without testosterone, under increased norepinephrine signaling levels, high cortisol production may occur - which may or may not cause problems.

The elevated norepinephrine signaling may then be accompanied by pro-inflammatory cytokine signaling as the brain becomes chronically elevated by stress signaling/norepinephrine. Over time, this may then cause hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal dysregulation with low cortisol production.

Estradiol, functioning as an MAO, increases serotonin greater than norepinephrine. It promotes competitiveness, drive, sex drive, aggressiveness. Without testosterone, however, and the dopamine increase it promotes, Estradiol would tend to flatten sex drive and promote irritability and aggression, anger, instead. Unless testosterone production is very low, Estradiol can be maintained since so little in relationship to testosterone, is needed in men. The relative change in signaling strengths of each poses problems of excessive estrogen. This includes increased thyroid binding globulin and reduction of free thyroid hormone signals. Excess estrogen, by increasing serotonin excessively, may reduce sex drive.

Norepinephrine is important for sexual function. It promotes the high and excitement that accompanies sex drive / libido. But in excess, it does not. It causes tension, stress, distress, anxiety, irritability, which lowers sex drive. To increase norepinephrine, the brain may reduce serotonin, GABA, then dopamine production - causing problems with deficiencies in serotonin, GABA and dopamine.

Excessive norepinephrine production also causes insulin resistance. The increase in insulin production that results is pro-inflammatory. It also further reduces testosterone production. Insulin also promotes fat storage. The resulting increase in fat results in an increase in Leptin and other pro-inflammatory signals from fat cells.

And so on and so on. These are some of the changes that permeate the system from the loss of testicular testosterone production. Some are added to by changes in the metabolism of the other cells which produce other signals such as thyroid hormone, through the process of aging or with nutritional problems or with genetic predisposition to other signaling or metabolic problems or through structural changes such as the loss of cells in the hippocampus and other brain structures.

-----

So what happens when testosterone is replaced?

There is a reversal of some of the initial signaling problems.

Because there is a larger number of dopamine receptors from the dopamine signaling deficit caused by the loss of testosterone, there is dopamine supersensitivity to the surge of dopamine signaling that accompanies the increase in testosterone with repla***ent. This can cause a high - with heightened sex drive, alertness. and an elevated mood.

Testosterone would also free up thyroid hormone by reducing thyroid binding globulin, reversing estrogen's effects, improving function from this angle. This would improve energy

Testosterone would then reduce excessive norepinephrine signaling, which as it comes more in normal physiologic strength, helps dopamine in providing a higher level of libido, sex drive, and an emotional high.

The testosterone to estrogen ratio would improve, reducing effects of excess estrogen. Insulin signaling is reduced. The body becomes less in an inflammatory state.

The person feels better, if not feels a high from the initial treatment with testosterone.

----

Over time, however, with increased dopamine signaling, dopamine receptor production is reduced back to a normal amount. Dopamine, as the reward signal, the feel good signal, can't be elevated for a prolonged period of time excessively, without problems occurring. It no longer becomes a reward signal if it is elevated for a prolonged period of time. Tolerance, through receptor reduction, occurs.

After the initial high, other problems also occur.

Exogenous testosterone suppresses testicular thyroid releasing hormone production. This reduces thyroid hormone production, undoing the initial increase in free thyroid hormone that testosterone caused. If there is hypothyroidism in the first place, this exacerbates that problem.

If there are other neurotransmitter, hormone, cytokine signaling problems or metabolic-nutritional problems outside of hypogonadism, these may complicate or undo what testosterone initially did.

If the man aromatizes testosterone to estrogen excessively, problems with excessive estrogen occur. If aromatization is not enough, then problems with too little estrogen occur. In either case, sex drive is impaired.

Thus, the hypogonadal man returns to Earth. And the initial high is lost.

 

[NateDEEzy]

Based on your comments, it appears your main concern is looks. Do you have any symptoms of low T that warrant TRT?

 

[300winmag]

Would you say some guys run naturally around 900-1,000 when they're young? Chances are yes. 1,000 ng natural is the same as 1,000 ng synthetic as long as it gets into the blood stream, no? I will agree with you that initially, natural T and synthetic T differ, but once the ester is removed by the enzymes in the blood, the two are the same, and you will receive the same effects. I don't think running in the low 1,000's is a huge mistake, especially when you're young and have had a history of low T. Making up for lost time I guess.

I understand your theory but if natural T was the same as synthetic then why is it that most people have to take double to 4 times the amount to get there T levels to a natural level? Normal Testosterone Levels in Men by Age - Free and Total Healthy Male Ranges there is a good study. I would think an average level of closer 1000 is not the norm but probably not impossible or unheard of either. Really I think what you are concerned with is is looks and more of cycling which maybe you should try, I really dont think your goals and such are that of TRT. Which is fine nothing wrong with that. But its like trying to make a duck talk you just cant do it, testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is there to support more natural like numbers and not everybody is going to get ripped and gain 20-30lbs of muscle mass.