When Mike was truly "Iron"
- Thread starter happy.time
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DaLinkWent
Guest
ttseti said:
No doubt . . . .
One of the best and most exciting during his time
H
Hawaiian Silky
Guest
the dude fought with pure rage, he was talented as fuck too, but nobody brought the rage like him
DanDaDa
New member
<div><embed src="http://www.funfry.com/data/686/2Mike-Tyson-Clips-Video-FunFry_com.mpg" width="320" height="285" autostart="false" controls="true" loop="false" type="application/x-mplayer2" pluginspage="http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/download/default.asp"></embed>
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Here's another similar mike tyson vid
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Here's another similar mike tyson vid
Makaveli_786
New member
I think Tyson hasn't lost it all yet, I recently heard why UFC refused to sign on Mike Tyson, I'm sure you all know about Tito Ortiz claiming he could KO Tyson and Tyson asked him for a fight and Ortiz backed out, well after that negotiations began with Tyson and the UFC finally decided to refuse to sign him ebcause he was too much of a dangerous fighter, they had a concern Tyson would maim and even kill the other competitiors with those tiny 4 oz gloves, seems like Tyson still has one hell of a punch
Makaveli_786
New member
Tyson does have ground skills, don't forget hes a street fighter and because of his build the dude can take one hell of a punch, he just needs to work on his legs and get that injury sussed out, besides in those 9 minutes hes bound to get a punch in and with 4 oz gloves the other dude will be lucky if he doesn't pass out, look at Tank Abbott if he lands that punch the other dude doesn't get back up but he doesn't have a third of Tyson's punching power and he isn't nearly as conditioned as Tyson, for Mike Tyson close combat no rules nearly bare knuckle fighting would be heaven because he'd be pretty much undefeatable.
Swoleburn
Gettin Swole
Makaveli_786 said:
What kind of ground skills does Tyson have??? And sure he can take a punch but can he breathe when his neck is being choked, or when his arm is being broke? Guys in the mixed martial arts competitions have years and years of Jui-Jitsu training or whatever type of groundfighting they choose. Just because Tyson is a "Streetfighter", Does not mean he will know what the hell to do once he is on the ground. I agree, that if he hits someone clean, the fight will be over. But if the fight goes to the ground against an experience grappler, Tyson will be like a fish out of water. Tyson has no takedown defense, no skills once he gets to the ground and would have to rely soley on punches. Good for Boxing! Not Very good in the UFC. And to compare him to Tank is about right because Tank was fun to watch but not very good when it comes down to it. For one the sport has evolved so much that everyone knows groundfighting now and Tank would not stand a chance against todays fighters. He was a mediocre fighter when he was in the UFC. He never beat a Top Name fighter. Vitor Belfort smashed him like he was a child. I have been around the MMA fighting scene long enough to know that a one demensional fighter will not be able to compete in a Mixed Martial Arts competition.
Makaveli_786
New member
Look at Tysons blocky build his only letdown is his legs, if you hit Tyson in the chest his massive trunk would absorb the impact, it wouldn't even reach his legs so trying to take him down from above the waist is not a possibility, he has weak legs and that exploitation could work but he has an overall blocky build and I'm sure with some work he could expand the strong blocky build to his legs.
When it comes to ground skills if somebody gets a submisison hold on you, you need raw strenght and speed to get out of it, the best thing to do is hit that person, you need to be fast and powerful, although Tyson doesn't have the same speed he possessed once he still has one hell of a punch, if Tyson frantically punched somebody when he was in an submission hold which is pretty easy and commmon unless your in an arm bar(take into account armbars only account for one arm) then that person who took Tyson down wouldn't stand a chance because the dude would be in a position where he'd be able to hit that mofo real easy, UFC is all about CQB, it would be a dream come true for a heavy hitter man.
Here's an example:
You can see the guys on the ground and all he can do is try to out punch the dude on top or get him off by overpowering him, at that position he can throw a big punch, if he throws a punch at his face he should affect him somewhat seriously, if you take a punch from Tyson you won't be walking for a few weeks.
Looks like a figure four lock, again the dude in submission has his arm loose, he can easily lay a punch on the dudes face.
And lastly an arm bar, again the dudes other arm is loose, one big punch and you can say your bye-bye's.
When it comes to ground skills if somebody gets a submisison hold on you, you need raw strenght and speed to get out of it, the best thing to do is hit that person, you need to be fast and powerful, although Tyson doesn't have the same speed he possessed once he still has one hell of a punch, if Tyson frantically punched somebody when he was in an submission hold which is pretty easy and commmon unless your in an arm bar(take into account armbars only account for one arm) then that person who took Tyson down wouldn't stand a chance because the dude would be in a position where he'd be able to hit that mofo real easy, UFC is all about CQB, it would be a dream come true for a heavy hitter man.
Here's an example:
You can see the guys on the ground and all he can do is try to out punch the dude on top or get him off by overpowering him, at that position he can throw a big punch, if he throws a punch at his face he should affect him somewhat seriously, if you take a punch from Tyson you won't be walking for a few weeks.
Looks like a figure four lock, again the dude in submission has his arm loose, he can easily lay a punch on the dudes face.
And lastly an arm bar, again the dudes other arm is loose, one big punch and you can say your bye-bye's.
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M
montess
Guest
Tyson has a hell of a punch and thats it. To say that he was one of the best in boxing is a damn joke. Even in his prime he never fought anyone with any real credentials. That only reason he was so publicized was cause in fact he was fun to watch and made money. I see no difference for him in this type of fighting for him the guy is broke and needs money.
Swoleburn
Gettin Swole
Makaveli_786
You obviously Know absolutely nothing about fighting and have probably never trained for it a day in your life. You only know what you see on TV and now think you know what your talking about. To say that you can punch your way out of submissions is absolutely retarded. And to say you can muscle out of these submissions is plain stupid. Put the worlds strongest men in the UFC and watch them get their asses handed to them. My brother and I have trained several years in Jui-Jitsu with some of the top guys in the world, and you can not simply punch out of chokes, armbars, leg locks etc. By the time you try to "punch out" of these submissions you are already sleeping or have a broken arm. That is possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard. If this was the case then Boxers would rule the UFC because they are the best punchers in the world. And if you have seen any UFC's you would know the majority of champions have wrestling or solid groundfighting backgrounds.
This is how I see a fight going between a Good Ground fighter and Mike Tyson:
Mike tyson would throw a series of punches but would get taken down, then he would get mounted for lack of any ground skills whatsoever. Next the groundfighter would throw a series of punches to Mike Tysons head. Mike can take some punches so he would not get knocked out but he would turn to his stomach and finally he would choked out from behind. Typical of any boxer that I have ever seen in a real fight vs. a grappler
Oh and about your lame ass explanation of your pictures,
Picture #1: The guy on top (Frank Mir) has one of the most dominating positions in a fight called the mount. The guy on bottom can try and throw punches, but have you ever tried to throw a punch from your back? Not very effective. Mike would be on the bottom against a grappler on the ground.
Picture #2: A figure 4 lock???? Are u fucking kidding??? That is called the guard since you didnt know and the guy on bottom is trying for a gilutine choke. The guard is considered a nuetral position in MMA.
Picture #3: Yes the guy has his other arm free. But if I were him I would use that arm to tap out because his other one is about to be snapped in half. And he could try to punch with the free arm but his arm is not 6 feet long so I doubt it will reach any area that will do damage.
In all reality we do not know exactly what would happen if Tyson were to fight in the UFC. We can only speculate by knowledge of the sport
But with that being said you have proved to me and everyone else that you know nothing about fighting and your 2 cents on this topic is not even worth a penny. Thanks for trying though
You obviously Know absolutely nothing about fighting and have probably never trained for it a day in your life. You only know what you see on TV and now think you know what your talking about. To say that you can punch your way out of submissions is absolutely retarded. And to say you can muscle out of these submissions is plain stupid. Put the worlds strongest men in the UFC and watch them get their asses handed to them. My brother and I have trained several years in Jui-Jitsu with some of the top guys in the world, and you can not simply punch out of chokes, armbars, leg locks etc. By the time you try to "punch out" of these submissions you are already sleeping or have a broken arm. That is possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard. If this was the case then Boxers would rule the UFC because they are the best punchers in the world. And if you have seen any UFC's you would know the majority of champions have wrestling or solid groundfighting backgrounds.
This is how I see a fight going between a Good Ground fighter and Mike Tyson:
Mike tyson would throw a series of punches but would get taken down, then he would get mounted for lack of any ground skills whatsoever. Next the groundfighter would throw a series of punches to Mike Tysons head. Mike can take some punches so he would not get knocked out but he would turn to his stomach and finally he would choked out from behind. Typical of any boxer that I have ever seen in a real fight vs. a grappler
Oh and about your lame ass explanation of your pictures,
Picture #1: The guy on top (Frank Mir) has one of the most dominating positions in a fight called the mount. The guy on bottom can try and throw punches, but have you ever tried to throw a punch from your back? Not very effective. Mike would be on the bottom against a grappler on the ground.
Picture #2: A figure 4 lock???? Are u fucking kidding??? That is called the guard since you didnt know and the guy on bottom is trying for a gilutine choke. The guard is considered a nuetral position in MMA.
Picture #3: Yes the guy has his other arm free. But if I were him I would use that arm to tap out because his other one is about to be snapped in half. And he could try to punch with the free arm but his arm is not 6 feet long so I doubt it will reach any area that will do damage.
In all reality we do not know exactly what would happen if Tyson were to fight in the UFC. We can only speculate by knowledge of the sport
But with that being said you have proved to me and everyone else that you know nothing about fighting and your 2 cents on this topic is not even worth a penny. Thanks for trying though
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Makaveli_786
New member
Yeah your right it is a joke, to say he's the best is the way it should be, Tyson has more round 1 KO's than any boxer in history, he's on record as the most powerful and fastest heavyweight in history, in his first year he only got TOUCHED in 2 fights out of 15 he used to move so fast, the dude has gone on record as doing the most damage, he once broke a mofos jaw in 2 places, knocked out 5 of his teeth and broke his cheekbone, he's hit Besbick so hard he blew a vein out in his leg, he knocked out Besbick when he was the best in the heavyweight division, he KO'ed the undefeated Spinks in 90 seconds, undoubtedly the greatest heavyweight in his division, he was so great nobody would fight him, Holyfield was hiding like a bitch when Spinks went looking and the amount of heavyweights willing to step in the ring with him dropped so dramatically he had to retire!
By the way he was the worlds youngest champion too... yeah your right Tyson is plain crap every heavyweight has accomplished all of the above
By the way he was the worlds youngest champion too... yeah your right Tyson is plain crap every heavyweight has accomplished all of the above
Makaveli_786
New member
Swoleburn said:
You obviously are an asshole so I'll put you straight:
I know I'm much more qualified than you in the art of fighting, wow several years of training how amazing and who are all these guys who are the worlds best, man you talk out of your ass, but name them anyway
BJJ is based around striking just as much as takedowns and ground tactics but the Gracies employed a lot of the ground tactics and they got their asses handed to them when they went up against an effective striker, if you can strike you can get out of anything plain and simple and with a dude with one ton of pressure under each hook your not going to last long.
All the Gracies implemented ground tactics but got theyr ass whooped by Kazushi Sakuraba who is a good striker(a good submission wrestler too), Royce nearly got KO'ed by Kimo too an effective striker, if you look back you'll see a well conditioned guy who possesses some ground skill can prevent himself from getting into a choke hold or any other compromising position, Royce couldn't take it further than an open guard on Kimo for a while and he got busted so bad he had to be carried out of the ring, if you could get somebody in a chokehold and make them pass out INSTANTLY which you can't everybody would be learning ground skills and submissions moves.
Once in submission it is hard to break out but not impossible, man I don't know where you read your arm will break the very second somebody gets you into an arm bar, moving in an arm bar would be pretty retarded because in a tight arm bar you could very easily have your arm broken but it doesn't take a second to set up, look how long it took Royce to get Kimo in an arm bar, he broke out of it at least 3 times in that fight due to his strenght and he flipped Royce onto his back once too, when Royce tried to mount him he turned Royce on his back using his strenght advantage, if he didn't get him in an arm bar soon he woulda lost.
You've got your little bullshit fantasies and I've got real fights to back me up, just watch the Kimo versus Royce or Kazushi vs. Royce fight, Kazushi beat 3 of the Gracie brothers the dudes known for submissions and even thought he was a submission wrestler he used striking to whoop theyr ass, what have you got to counteract that bitch?
Swoleburn
Gettin Swole
You have so many flaws in your argument I really do not know where to start. Here it goes anyways.
Ok, Now you are giving me examples of a groundfighter vs. a groundfighter!!! I have seen all of the Sak vs. Gracie fights and they are all very skilled in grappling. Now were these fights Won by strikes???????? No they were not!!!!! The one against Royce was because he threw in the towel because his foot was broken. In case you forgot the fight between Royce and Sakuraba lasted almost an hour. So obviously there were not too many devistating strikes. He beat Renzo Gracie by a Kimura (Armlock) and he beat Royler Gracie by another armlock that the ref stopped. So how do two armlocks and a towel thrown in because of a broken foot constitute as being beaten by strikes? Please answer this for me. As far as the Kimo fight goes, there were no weight classes then and Royce was fighting a guy that outweighed him by over 50lbs. This is a prime example and yet again proving my point. Kimo was a much, much larger and stronger man than Royce. Royce was 180lbs wet and wearing boots and Kimo was near 250lbs ripped and roided. In case you forgot Royce Gracie STILL WON!!!!!!!!!!!! Kimo was also skilled in wrestling. So you are proving my point once again. I should just let you argue my point for me. The original argument, in case you forgot, was over Mike Tyson, not over other Groundfighters, You are making me laugh man. I have trained with Rickson Gracie in Oakland, Royce Gracie in Torrance, the Machado brothers, Pat Smith, Deigo Sanchez (he just won the UFC contract), among others. And to tell you the truth I dont care if you believe me or not because the fact that I can tell you dont know shit. You are proabably a boxer and think that it is the best thing in the world but have yet to fight someone that knew how to fight on the ground. Tell me one pure boxer that has ever had success in the UFC???????
On to your other weak ass arguments: I never said it took 1 second to choke someone out or to break an arm. But in the picture you provided his arm is fully extended and could break easily if the guy lifted his hips. In the caption under the picture you said his other arm was free to punch. R U a fucking RETARD???? There is no way in that picture he will get off a punch before his arm is snapped. Plus from that position how would you use your other arm to punch his face that is 5 feet away? You my friend are an idiot!!!!!!!
So the fact of the matter is that you have to be well rounded. I said one demensional fighters have very little chance in a MMA competition. One Dimensional stand up fighters have even less of a chance. Royce Gracie, Renzo and Royler are one demensional fighters. They have no striking skills whatsoever, and they lost to a fighter (Sakuraba) That was well rounded in strikes and grappling. The only reason why Sakuraba was able to land any type of strike was because he knew how to defend from takedowns and was extremely skilled in grappling. Tyson has no grappling skills and he would be exposed in the ring.
So Chew on that Biatch, And you think you have more experience then me in fighting????....LOL....Fighting a little girl or fighting 5th graders doesnt count.......If we were in the same room you would not talk shit, you would sit in the corner like the pussy you are, I can garauntee it.
Ok, Now you are giving me examples of a groundfighter vs. a groundfighter!!! I have seen all of the Sak vs. Gracie fights and they are all very skilled in grappling. Now were these fights Won by strikes???????? No they were not!!!!! The one against Royce was because he threw in the towel because his foot was broken. In case you forgot the fight between Royce and Sakuraba lasted almost an hour. So obviously there were not too many devistating strikes. He beat Renzo Gracie by a Kimura (Armlock) and he beat Royler Gracie by another armlock that the ref stopped. So how do two armlocks and a towel thrown in because of a broken foot constitute as being beaten by strikes? Please answer this for me. As far as the Kimo fight goes, there were no weight classes then and Royce was fighting a guy that outweighed him by over 50lbs. This is a prime example and yet again proving my point. Kimo was a much, much larger and stronger man than Royce. Royce was 180lbs wet and wearing boots and Kimo was near 250lbs ripped and roided. In case you forgot Royce Gracie STILL WON!!!!!!!!!!!! Kimo was also skilled in wrestling. So you are proving my point once again. I should just let you argue my point for me. The original argument, in case you forgot, was over Mike Tyson, not over other Groundfighters, You are making me laugh man. I have trained with Rickson Gracie in Oakland, Royce Gracie in Torrance, the Machado brothers, Pat Smith, Deigo Sanchez (he just won the UFC contract), among others. And to tell you the truth I dont care if you believe me or not because the fact that I can tell you dont know shit. You are proabably a boxer and think that it is the best thing in the world but have yet to fight someone that knew how to fight on the ground. Tell me one pure boxer that has ever had success in the UFC???????
On to your other weak ass arguments: I never said it took 1 second to choke someone out or to break an arm. But in the picture you provided his arm is fully extended and could break easily if the guy lifted his hips. In the caption under the picture you said his other arm was free to punch. R U a fucking RETARD???? There is no way in that picture he will get off a punch before his arm is snapped. Plus from that position how would you use your other arm to punch his face that is 5 feet away? You my friend are an idiot!!!!!!!
So the fact of the matter is that you have to be well rounded. I said one demensional fighters have very little chance in a MMA competition. One Dimensional stand up fighters have even less of a chance. Royce Gracie, Renzo and Royler are one demensional fighters. They have no striking skills whatsoever, and they lost to a fighter (Sakuraba) That was well rounded in strikes and grappling. The only reason why Sakuraba was able to land any type of strike was because he knew how to defend from takedowns and was extremely skilled in grappling. Tyson has no grappling skills and he would be exposed in the ring.
So Chew on that Biatch, And you think you have more experience then me in fighting????....LOL....Fighting a little girl or fighting 5th graders doesnt count.......If we were in the same room you would not talk shit, you would sit in the corner like the pussy you are, I can garauntee it.
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Makaveli_786
New member
Swoleburn said:
If you go back and watch the fight you'll see the dude did strike a lot, no they weren't won by strikes there was a lot of grapping involved and he's a good ground figher but he striked a lot, look back at the fight, everytime the Gracies tried to tackle him he'd get out of the mount or open guard and make his way to the top and strike:
Here are some more pictures of him in other fights, the dude strikes a LOT even though he's a submission wrestler, he gets the edge over his opponents and always strikes when theyr trying to get him in submission:
Even when he's got him down hes still striking:
I don't think you've read any of what I said, my point is if your strong enough you can get out of a vulnerable position, when Royce had Kimo in open guard he was attempting an arm lock and before he got it locked in Kimo used his strenght to toss Royce onto his back, Kimo was 260lbs not 250 as well, he isn't very skilled in wrestling but he has decent grappling skills but the point is he used his STRENGHT to get out of submissions, here Royce tried to mount him but he threw Royce on his back:
Royce was done for at the end of that match but when they came off the ringside they hit the floor and Royce LUCKILY ended up in a position where he could set up the arm bar, a couple more minutes and Royce woulda needed a stretcher he had to be carried out of the ring even at that point.
I think you have a problem against boxers but you obviously don't get it, I am saying an effective striker CAN get out of a ground attack, the original argument was over Mike Tyson and I said if somebody takes him down it will take a while to set him up and in that while he can capitalize on his power, Kimo tossed Royce around everytime he tried to get an arm lock on him and Sak pounded the Royce brothers everytime they tried to get him in a submissive move, granted these guys are well versed in ground fighting because of theyr backgrounds the fact remains that stiriking is an effective tool in any sport and a good striker can do a lot of damage.
By the way I've met Sak, he kicked the shit out of the Gracies and he'd eat Pat and Diego, I can't beleive your bragging about those bitches, they are tough dudes but theyr not real fighters like Sak, he whooped all of your precious Gracie brothers man and how long would Pat last against Sak?
I can't beleive your bragging about chilling with them mofos, lol you look like a dumbass telling somebody whoose chilled with Sak that you met THE GRACIES.. you met the Gracies, I met the guy who whooped their ass, chew on that son.
I didn't mean when your in an actual arm bar you can punch out of it I mean while somebody is trying to set your one arm up you can use your other arm to get out of it, I can't remember who it was that Royce once tried to get in an armbar but that dude didn't let Royce get the arm bar because he was pounding his head while Royce was trying to get it locked in, Royce had to let go, now if Tyson punchs your head don't you think thats even a little significant??
LOL its funny how you keep changing your argument, man listen a well rounded fighter is important but your talking shit about how striking is ineffective when it comes to ground fighting and thats what I've just dissapproved, I took an example of how a fighter used striking skills and how another fighter used strenght to get out of submissions, you said to me you couldn't muscle or punch out of a vulnerable position now your recanting your argument.
Man your some ugly ass white boi come on thats the biggest diss you could ever give me, scared of you?
WTF you look like your a McDonalds junkie with that big ass stomach of yours, you'd walk half way across the ring and pass out from being tired, your some big fat chump, we've all seen you, you just talk shit and now I can prove it, your guarunteeing something you have no way of actually guaruneeting, how can you give that guaruntee you don't know me I might bitch slap you, man your an entertaining young guy but your retarded as fuck, my argument is EXACTLY the same but yours is changing and your telling me about how inexperienced I am and how experienced you are and you've sparred with Bruce Lee and had his wife in bed and Brandon Lee was really your son, kinda hard to beleive anything you say when your stories change momentarily.
Swoleburn
Gettin Swole
The Original Argument was on Tyson so there is no point to bring up anyone else. I never did. You say that I am changing my argument??? Isnt the title of this thread about Mike Tyson. Not Sakuraba or Kimo that have grappling skills. I would also like to see where I said that Striking was innefective. In my second post last sentance I said a one dimensional fighter would not stand a chance in MMA. This includes someone that has no grappling skills, or no striking skills. Now a days you need to be well rounded. I never said that strikes are ineffective. I know you need both and implied this when I said one dimesional fighter stands no chance. Now, Tyson has no grappling skills whatsoever. This would make him a one dimensional fighter. Correct? Do you really think Tyson would know what to do on the ground, and what submissions to look for? I highly doubt it. In order to set up strikes dont you think it would be benificial to know some positioning on the ground at the very least? Every UFC fighter would know not to go toe to toe with Tyson so they wouldnt even try. Sakuraba was able to strike because he knew what submissions to look for and stay out of them. He knew to look for a triangle choke or armbar if he was in the Gracies Gaurd. So there is no point to argue with me about Sakuraba, or any one else besides the original argument which is TYSON!!! I know Sakuraba is a great fighter, I never said he wasnt. But to say the Gracies are not good is rediculous. They introduced this Jui-Jitsu and the UFC to America. Believe it or not for the first three years of operation the UFC was run by Rorion Gracie. It was Originally supposed to be called the Gracie Challenge. So to discredit the Gracies as being some of the top fighters in the world is rediculous. I really am tired of talking to you because you are not staying on topic. Why are we even talking about other fighter besides Tyson?
Oh and since you are so quick to judge what I look like, Lets see a picture of you!!!!! We can put mine and yours side by side in this thread and let everyone else decide.
Oh and since you are so quick to judge what I look like, Lets see a picture of you!!!!! We can put mine and yours side by side in this thread and let everyone else decide.
Makaveli_786
New member
Man listen you flamed me when I was tryna discuss it with you and said I knew nothing when I was trying to have a proper debate with you, the debate started when I said Tyson would be effective in the UFC and you disagreed, you said ground skills are important and once your in a vulnerable position you cannot possibly escape, I disagreed and I said you can strike out of a vulnerable position, you verbally attacked me a few times AGAIN and then went on to say you were a great fighter, had experience with the worlds best and I would sit in a corner and not say anything if we ever met etc etc, you assume a lot for a fat guy you know, anyway now your saying an all around fighter is effective and I agree but before you implied that once a ground fighter is the best blah blah and once somebody tries getting you into submission youve lost the match, I took possibly the best submission fighters the Gracies and proved my point that stiriking is effective by posting the results of fights where the Gracies the best submission fighters were taken by a bunch of well rounded dudes who used their strenght, speed and STRIKING skills to avoid being set up in submissions, I've proved my point what else do you want, do you not agree that striking is an effective tool against somebody trying to set you up in submission?
Man if you weren't such an asshole you wouldn't have flamed me and this discussion could have been a little more gentlemanly but you flamed me and look at you now, I tore you a new asshole your replies get shorter each reply and you have less to argue against each time I put a post up.
P.S. LOL man are you serious, haven't I embarassed you enough, you'll see my pics when theyr ready man, no offense but it can't get much worse than 15% bodyfat if your imposing as a bodybuiler so unless I'm some really fat fucker I doubt you'll look better than me and beleive me I'm not fat, in much better shape than yourself to be blunt.
Man if you weren't such an asshole you wouldn't have flamed me and this discussion could have been a little more gentlemanly but you flamed me and look at you now, I tore you a new asshole your replies get shorter each reply and you have less to argue against each time I put a post up.
P.S. LOL man are you serious, haven't I embarassed you enough, you'll see my pics when theyr ready man, no offense but it can't get much worse than 15% bodyfat if your imposing as a bodybuiler so unless I'm some really fat fucker I doubt you'll look better than me and beleive me I'm not fat, in much better shape than yourself to be blunt.
