Why Cycle?

[AudioMaker]

I guess I didn't associate increasing dosage with size. Though you never hear of people say if it's your first cycle and you weight over 200 lbs. then 500 mg test a week won't do anything for you, you need to start with at least 750 etc. you never hear of anybody saying that. Everybody is told to start off at the same dosage, 500 mg wk. If the test dose had anything to do with size then that would be something you would need to take into consideration when you first start. Just like when you are calculating your calories and what you need to grow, you put your stats in and calculate it. If this applied with AAS then I'm sure there would be a similar calculator to figure out how much you should increase your dose based on your stats but, there's not, so I don't think it has anything to do with that.

What you said about pros having limits, I agree but, the thing is they are also not on that max dose consistently all the time. They cruise on a high amount but, then they also blast (from what I gather). They don't stay on 2g or 3g all year, they will crusie on 1g or something like that, whatever they need to hold their mass, and then they blast. Your theory is to stay on the same dosage all the time and eliminate cycling and blasting, correct?

I believe the gains your'e referring to when you get back into the gym is related to muscle memory. The type of gains I'm talking about, are like what most people get on their first cycle. Those aren't from muscle memory.

"If you couldn't gain without upping your doses, then somehow these natty guys are breaking a rule or two by getting there....even if it's not monstrous, it's still pro-level."

Yeah, I see what you're saying there. But if you wanted do it the natty "way" then why would you be on AAS at all? If you're going to decide to use AAS, you might as well use it to get the most benefit out of it?

Also I think you were asking why people can't stay on high doses all the time. As mentioned everybody is different but, a few important aspects that I can reply to like what was mentioned heart issues. So cholestrol is an issue, the bad cholestrol raises and good cholestrol lowers, so that's one reason. Blood pressure is another reason, I remember on 400 mg test my BP was fine, then I went up to 500 and I was near 170 / 90. So I for sure could not stay on that dose long term, everybody is different. Some people also have prostate issues. Liver issues are another possibility, once I started testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) my AST/ALT values doubled. RBC and hemocrit is another issue, this usually increases due to AAS. Depending on the person one can experience all these issues once you get into super physiological test doses long term. Hell, it even happens to people in the short term on a cycle.

No argument 3ct. You could be exactly correct.

I will say that I think almost any medication, food intake, water and even air intake are going to be size dependent.

I think the 500mg start point is just an average range, and since most people are average, it probably took hold as a standard generic answer. The same holds true for how even people of different weights tolerate and respond to it.

The point I was making about the natty guys is that they assumably had a pretty linear testosterone increase. Since we know that exercise itself boosts T, then they are certainly above average, but I'd bet that it increased as they increased. That would not be dissimilar from a "high cruise" vs a "cycle". Point was that they didn't seem to need a receptor rest, and I'm not sure how that would apply to the idea of cycling being a better builder. I'm not suggesting no AAS, I'm just looking at the application of it vs a natural bodybuilder.

Now, I'm not arguing that AAS could up your BP and cause the other problems you mentioned, but simply taking BP as an example...

Is your body better off running a slightly elevated BP for a long time, or a really high one up and down? Dunno. As an older man, I think I'd be more afraid of the latter. As halfwit mentions, the body might even try to find a homeostasis if you went long term and didn't spike so much.

You suggest that on 400mg of Test that your BP was fine, but on 500 is spiked. Well that's kind of the point. Maybe 400 is a level you could do all the time instead of going from 0 to whatever your max is and then post cycle therapy (pct) back to zero? Again...dunno.

Also, the whole idea of the post cycle therapy (pct). Take all these drugs, hope you don't limp out, hope to keep your muscle...etc. It's a hassle.

So, perhaps there's hassles to the long term approach as well that balance out... like BP meds (or aspirin), blood lettings...etc.

It would be kind of hypocritical to scoff at preventative med's like those while injecting hormones of all sorts, med's made to combat breast cancer in women, and things once only obtainable from cadavers for the sake of vanity.

Point? Well it seems that either road could produce sides, and most of them require med's.

 

[3ct]

Now, I'm not arguing that AAS could up your BP and cause the other problems you mentioned, but simply taking BP as an example...

Is your body better off running a slightly elevated BP for a long time, or a really high one up and down? Dunno. As an older man, I think I'd be more afraid of the latter. As halfwit mentions, the body might even try to find a homeostasis if you went long term and didn't spike so much.

You suggest that on 400mg of Test that your BP was fine, but on 500 is spiked. Well that's kind of the point. Maybe 400 is a level you could do all the time instead of going from 0 to whatever your max is and then PCT back to zero? Again...dunno.

Also, the whole idea of the post cycle therapy (pct). Take all these drugs, hope you don't limp out, hope to keep your muscle...etc. It's a hassle.

So, perhaps there's hassles to the long term approach as well that balance out... like BP meds (or aspirin), blood lettings...etc.

It would be kind of hypocritical to scoff at preventative med's like those while injecting hormones of all sorts, med's made to combat breast cancer in women, and things once only obtainable from cadavers for the sake of vanity.

Point? Well it seems that either road could produce sides, and most of them require med's.

I don't know if it would work or not, being on "blast" at 400 or 500 mg I was taking a lot of OTC vitamins to help keep things in control, and taking like 20 pills every day gets pretty old. Also, you have to watch your diet, sodium etc. more carefully. What about bloating? Some people bloat on high test, I wouldn't want to look bloated all the time. It will vary from person to person, if you have absolutely no sides on high test, and you don't mind taking so many supplements to help keep things in check, then that's up to you. Personally, I was kind of relieved to come back down to my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose. Of course pro's stay on much higher doses. I guess it just comes down to the individuals, I don't see myself being able to handle and cruise on anything what the pros do. Also, I'm not sure if you hear it or not but, a lot of people say if you think the pros are "healthy" you're kidding yourself, they have a host of issues. Also, what about not being able to have kids, people worry about that also. There's a lot of potential issues with high test and it varies from person to person. I'm on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) myself and I'm fine on my dose for the most part it seems, so I stay at this dose. If you're fine on a higher dose, then that's up to you.

As for BP meds, in no way was I trying to "scoff" at other prescription meds. I actually considered it because I thought I'd rather do that, and take one or two pills of those a day instead of like 10 pills of OTC stuff every day like hawthorne, asprin, red yeast rice, coq 10, etc. etc. to help with BP. The only issue is just like with every other prescription medication, BP meds also come with their own list of potential side effects. So, for most people it's a last resort. That's why I didn't pull the trigger or else I was ready to go to the doc. I just didn't want things to get worst or new unwanted side effects come up etc.

 

[TheChosenOne]

I've always believed in lower doses over the long haul works much better. And it's healthier too. You should check out Jim Morris. He's living proof. On another forum an older body builder that competed along side Jim said they both kept there doses under 300 a week. These guys are in there 70's and look amazing. Jim Morris: You Won't Believe How Old This Bodybuilder Is here is a link to Jim Morris article.

 

[AudioMaker]

I don't know if it would work or not, being on "blast" at 400 or 500 mg I was taking a lot of OTC vitamins to help keep things in control, and taking like 20 pills every day gets pretty old. Also, you have to watch your diet, sodium etc. more carefully. What about bloating? Some people bloat on high test, I wouldn't want to look bloated all the time. It will vary from person to person, if you have absolutely no sides on high test, and you don't mind taking so many supplements to help keep things in check, then that's up to you. Personally, I was kind of relieved to come back down to my testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose. Of course pro's stay on much higher doses. I guess it just comes down to the individuals, I don't see myself being able to handle and cruise on anything what the pros do. Also, I'm not sure if you hear it or not but, a lot of people say if you think the pros are "healthy" you're kidding yourself, they have a host of issues. Also, what about not being able to have kids, people worry about that also. There's a lot of potential issues with high test and it varies from person to person. I'm on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) myself and I'm fine on my dose for the most part it seems, so I stay at this dose. If you're fine on a higher dose, then that's up to you.

As for BP meds, in no way was I trying to "scoff" at other prescription meds. I actually considered it because I thought I'd rather do that, and take one or two pills of those a day instead of like 10 pills of OTC stuff every day like hawthorne, asprin, red yeast rice, coq 10, etc. etc. to help with BP. The only issue is just like with every other prescription medication, BP meds also come with their own list of potential side effects. So, for most people it's a last resort. That's why I didn't pull the trigger or else I was ready to go to the doc. I just didn't want things to get worst or new unwanted side effects come up etc.

Sorry 3ct, the "scoff" comment wasn't directed at you or anyone, just a general reminder to myself that this is a group which seems to be OK with taking drugs for sides that *we* caused.

For myself, the topic title is sincere... "Why Cycle?".

The questions is really why jump from a low dose/maintenance workout, to a high dose/intense workout and back instead of staying on a medium dose/moderate workout?

Of course when I say "moderate workout", I mean as intense as you could do at that dose assuming 750mg + of T would let you do more.

Lets say you did this for 2 years...at 350mg (adjust other AAS's as well). I think you're going to be getting bigger the whole time...slowly.

If you put on 30lbs of muscle in that time, then you might have to up it to say 400mg and keep going...etc.

At the same time, the other guys are getting bigger than you, but then losing some of it, then bigger again...etc. I would be curious about the 1-3-5 year results of both roads in size, but especially in muscle quality?

I'm also especially talking about non-pro BB's, or I should say...guys who want to be "built", but who aren't going down the true Pro BB path (I think we all know the difference).

Perhaps cycling is absolutely needed for a person who's income depends on winning BB contests and gaining sponsorships, and that might be the only way to achieve "that" body, but most guys just wanna look stacked.

So, there's a couple "yays" and a couple "Nays" in this thread. I would have expected a lot more opinions when questioning the validity of probably the most talked about thing on this forum.... The Cycle itself.

 

[halfwit]

I would have expected a lot more opinions when questioning the validity of probably the most talked about thing on this forum.... The Cycle itself

The problem is that this thread takes a bit of reading and independent thought when there are 500 threads about 17 year olds wanting to do triple oral only cycles a click away!

 

[3ct]

"The questions is really why jump from a low dose/maintenance workout, to a high dose/intense workout and back instead of staying on a medium dose/moderate workout?"


I'm not sure what you meant there, are you saying people workout less intensely on a low dose vs. a high dose? Since that shouldn't be the case. If anything you should be working harder once you're down to a low dose since you want to prevent losing gains. I can say in my experience when I went from my blast of 500 mg test to 200 mg test. My workouts and diet stayed the same, and I didn't lose any gains and I'm still continuing to gain (slower though) on 200 mg test. I mean if you're saying to work yourself up to a dose to where your body agrees with it, like you said to me at 400 mg I was fine and why not stay there. Then yes, if your bloods are not effected then you're probably ok, bloods determine everything. However, I don't see any reason for me to and my liver values did increase on just 400 test compared to where they are at 200 mg test. Personally, I also don't really feel any different on 400 vs 200 but, I'm just one of those that doesn't really "feel" it no crazy libido or well being etc. I just feel the same and yes it was legit test, scripted.

I can say in my case that I would not be able to stay on a high enough dose long term, based on my blood work and I don't really see any reason to. Have you ever had blood work done on a high dose of test vs low dose and compared the results? My "bad" numbers increase. I remember what you said about is it worst to stay on and have your bloods at those levels, or is it worst to come back down then go back up. I would consider the going down to be a "break" you're giving your body and organs a break. When you're running higher dose you're putting more pressure on your body and organs. I would personally like to see my numbers return to "normal". If you came back down and decided to stay at a low dose or off, your numbers should return to normal and you should stay there. So that would tell me that going on coming off should be ok.

I don't think it would be too far fetched to compare it to any other drug say alcohol, is it worst to drink a 6 pack every night or once in a while? I think studies would show once in a while would be fine and every day would not. I do not think that your body will achieve "homestasis" when putting your body and organs through that, it's going to continue getting worst over time. I think it comes back to giving your body a break and a chance to recover. Again, everybody is different and test effects everybodys bloods differently, I can only speak for myself and these are just my opinions.

 

[soldier74]

Hella thread!!!

 

[AudioMaker]

"The questions is really why jump from a low dose/maintenance workout, to a high dose/intense workout and back instead of staying on a medium dose/moderate workout?"


I'm not sure what you meant there, are you saying people workout less intensely on a low dose vs. a high dose? Since that shouldn't be the case. If anything you should be working harder once you're down to a low dose since you want to prevent losing gains. I can say in my experience when I went from my blast of 500 mg test to 200 mg test. My workouts and diet stayed the same, and I didn't lose any gains and I'm still continuing to gain (slower though) on 200 mg test. I mean if you're saying to work yourself up to a dose to where your body agrees with it, like you said to me at 400 mg I was fine and why not stay there. Then yes, if your bloods are not effected then you're probably ok, bloods determine everything. However, I don't see any reason for me to and my liver values did increase on just 400 test compared to where they are at 200 mg test. Personally, I also don't really feel any different on 400 vs 200 but, I'm just one of those that doesn't really "feel" it no crazy libido or well being etc. I just feel the same and yes it was legit test, scripted.

I can say in my case that I would not be able to stay on a high enough dose long term, based on my blood work and I don't really see any reason to. Have you ever had blood work done on a high dose of test vs low dose and compared the results? My "bad" numbers increase. I remember what you said about is it worst to stay on and have your bloods at those levels, or is it worst to come back down then go back up. I would consider the going down to be a "break" you're giving your body and organs a break. When you're running higher dose you're putting more pressure on your body and organs. I would personally like to see my numbers return to "normal". If you came back down and decided to stay at a low dose or off, your numbers should return to normal and you should stay there. So that would tell me that going on coming off should be ok.

I don't think it would be too far fetched to compare it to any other drug say alcohol, is it worst to drink a 6 pack every night or once in a while? I think studies would show once in a while would be fine and every day would not. I do not think that your body will achieve "homestasis" when putting your body and organs through that, it's going to continue getting worst over time. I think it comes back to giving your body a break and a chance to recover. Again, everybody is different and test effects everybodys bloods differently, I can only speak for myself and these are just my opinions.

Well first off, I think we would all have to agree that the speculation in this thread has to be considered "In General".

I for one am still finding out how my body reacts to these substances, and I don't know if I'll even fall into that category. It's just general theory that won't apply to everyone.

My impression was that for most people, they can train harder on an AAS program than without, and while not instantly reacting, can train harder on a larger dose.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that you train just as hard at any dose, and while that might be the case, that has not been my understanding of the general BB's crowd.

When I say "just as hard", I'm talking about working to failure at the same weights/reps.

We're talking about building muscle, but certainly athletes who are concerned with other things (speed, endurance..etc) are enhancing their performance with AAS regardless of gaining mass.

Your alcohol analogy is right up my alley (former bar owner).

The question is not whether it's better to drink a whole 6 pack every night or once in awhile, it's if you should drink wine 3 glasses every night, or 10 glasses on Mondays and Thursdays.

To this question, I most positively have the answer...

The first has long term effects on the body

The second has long term effects on the body plus dangerous short term effects.

 

[3ct]

Well first off, I think we would all have to agree that the speculation in this thread has to be considered "In General".

I for one am still finding out how my body reacts to these substances, and I don't know if I'll even fall into that category. It's just general theory that won't apply to everyone.

My impression was that for most people, they can train harder on an AAS program than without, and while not instantly reacting, can train harder on a larger dose.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that you train just as hard at any dose, and while that might be the case, that has not been my understanding of the general BB's crowd.

When I say "just as hard", I'm talking about working to failure at the same weights/reps.

We're talking about building muscle, but certainly athletes who are concerned with other things (speed, endurance..etc) are enhancing their performance with AAS regardless of gaining mass.

Your alcohol analogy is right up my alley (former bar owner).

The question is not whether it's better to drink a whole 6 pack every night or once in awhile, it's if you should drink wine 3 glasses every night, or 10 glasses on Mondays and Thursdays.

To this question, I most positively have the answer...

The first has long term effects on the body

The second has long term effects on the body plus dangerous short term effects.

So, it sounds like you're saying you have not got bloods done on a high test dose and a low test dose and compared? If not, then I would really see that for yourself first.

"training harder" well obviously if you're running dbol or something your going to be able to lift more weight probably due to water and the immediate strength gains you get. just because you are lifting less weight when you're off or on a low dose, doesn't mean that you're not working as hard. if you can't go for weight, you go for reps. I can tell you that from my legs workout yesterday, and i'm on a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose right now. i was basically a cripple today, trouble getting in/out of cars, walking up/down stairs, standing up, sitting down, I'm very very sore. The thing is that yesterday I didn't even hit it "hard" after the gym I thought my workout was "pretty good". I just started working out with a new trainer, I thought we were just basically looking at my form since the weight that day felt light but, we were going for reps and damn completely unexpected, i started waking up out of my sleep from how bad the soreness was.

so i can tell you that i can't imagine myself working out any "harder" than i did yesterday on legs day, on any dose or whatever.

"The question is not whether it's better to drink a whole 6 pack every night or once in awhile, it's if you should drink wine 3 glasses every night, or 10 glasses on Mondays and Thursdays. "

Well if you're cycling then I believe it would be more like my analogy because you do come off completely. I believe your analogy would apply to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose vs high dose all the time because you're constantly on.

I guess it's just going to come down to blood work. The other thing is that people have been cycling and cruising and blasting for decades. I don't really feel that I need to reinvent the wheel. There's a lot of old school BB's still alive right? There's a lot of older people on this board in the 40's, 50's I've even seen some people in their 60's post. That have decades of AAS experience going by the same system. So, I guess this method might not be so bad. Then again, there's no telling how many have gone without knowing, so who knows.

 

[fitnessgeek]

I love these kinds of threads-the kind that make you think. The ones that try to find ways to "safely" push limits.
This is why I came here, to be educated and learn from guys who knew what they were talking about and were also open minded. This is how we not only improve but excel-through knowledge, experience, and open minds.
For what it's worth I just wanted to chime in and say thanks to the people who have taken time to contribute to this thread.

 

[AudioMaker]

So, it sounds like you're saying you have not got bloods done on a high test dose and a low test dose and compared? If not, then I would really see that for yourself first.

"training harder" well obviously if you're running dbol or something your going to be able to lift more weight probably due to water and the immediate strength gains you get. just because you are lifting less weight when you're off or on a low dose, doesn't mean that you're not working as hard. if you can't go for weight, you go for reps. I can tell you that from my legs workout yesterday, and i'm on a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose right now. i was basically a cripple today, trouble getting in/out of cars, walking up/down stairs, standing up, sitting down, I'm very very sore. The thing is that yesterday I didn't even hit it "hard" after the gym I thought my workout was "pretty good". I just started working out with a new trainer, I thought we were just basically looking at my form since the weight that day felt light but, we were going for reps and damn completely unexpected, i started waking up out of my sleep from how bad the soreness was.

so i can tell you that i can't imagine myself working out any "harder" than i did yesterday on legs day, on any dose or whatever.

"The question is not whether it's better to drink a whole 6 pack every night or once in awhile, it's if you should drink wine 3 glasses every night, or 10 glasses on Mondays and Thursdays. "

Well if you're cycling then I believe it would be more like my analogy because you do come off completely. I believe your analogy would apply to testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose vs high dose all the time because you're constantly on.

I guess it's just going to come down to blood work. The other thing is that people have been cycling and cruising and blasting for decades. I don't really feel that I need to reinvent the wheel. There's a lot of old school BB's still alive right? There's a lot of older people on this board in the 40's, 50's I've even seen some people in their 60's post. That have decades of AAS experience going by the same system. So, I guess this method might not be so bad. Then again, there's no telling how many have gone without knowing, so who knows.

"So who knows". I totally agree.

My bloods wouldn't make any difference to this thread because I haven't done what we're talking about here. That might change down the road though.

As far as our alcohol analogies, I kinda winged it. I mean, you say you do come completely off a cycle, but in the 10Mon/10Thurs example, you also come completely off.

Of course, you're only off wine for 3 days in that example vs months in BB cycling, but you are only on for the time it takes to drink and digest 10 glasses, vs 10-20 weeks on in a BB cycle. Everything got condensed.

Also, the decades of people doing it one way...it seems to me... are modeled after pro bodybuilder routines. I'm not saying they don't work. Of course if you look on the boards, a lot of guys are in really good shape, but they aren't Skeletor looking BB's.

I think everyone can agree that what a true BB does to their body to get into that realm is not healthy (although the overall lifestyle and diet may be healthy compared to the average male).

I think we can also agree that BB's (and the procedure they took to get there), aren't the strongest males on earth (abiet very strong), nor do they stay in competition form.

It makes total sense that guys who want to beef up follow the lead of BB's. BB's are the race car drivers of being big and cut.

I bet though that there's a lot of guys who you couldn't pay enough to look the a pro bodybuilder in the nude (I'm one). These guys are more the "Hot rods" vs the "Race Cars". They wanna look mean and tough, but not "alien"...if you get my drift.

Now if we jump from beer and wine to cars, sure...there's lot's of things Hot Rodders do to their cars that are learned from racing, but they also follow different routines as well.

I mean, you don't want to be required to run your muscle car (hehe) only on 110oct fuel, or have it only last one race without a rebuild (as is the case with race cars)...etc ...etc.

The body building community feels like some wannabe racers and wannabe hot rodders, yet bot follow the car building path of the racer. I think cycling might be one of those paths. I use the term "wannabe" in a complimentary fashion there. I wanna hot rod body myself (a vintage one lol).

Well, I'll go for it. As I type this I've upped from 250mg to 500mg of T/wk for one week now. I'm going to see how that feels and I will get some blood's. I want to do one cycle at 500 and in theory drop to 350 and hold it year round. I'll try to keep everyone updated how the year goes.

Best Regards