Why not Nolvadex?

[Avenger87]

Why do some many people advise against Nolvadex during PCT, and just Clomid? Judging from the profile on the site - it's basically a miracle drug that can be used as during cycle to control E and during PCT to help stimulate test production.

Hit me with some knowledge bombs guys.

 

[chain]

Clomid vs nolva is a matter of choice. Both drugs are close to identicle and each have it's pros/cons.
I prefer nolva over clomid. In Ology, for some reason, guys prefere clomid over nolva. But this is kinda old school and recently the use of clomid has decreased.
The only downside is that nolva reduces igf.
20mg of nolva raises the test levels by 150% while it requires 150mg of clomid to achieve that.
Nolva is more effective for gyno over clomid.
Besides the other side effects that comes with cycling clomid is Irreversible damage to vision.
Guys with already poor vision will notice this side immediatly.

I occasionally use clomid as a test booster and run it for 8weeks no more than 30 mg a day ( not pct).

 

[donjob]

i was thinking of running clomid as a test booster later on down the road if i needed a boost to put on a couple pounds or so. i run nolva for pct, i have used nolva for slight gyno. took a couple days and it was gone. clomid can give you bad sides, very emotional, vision, etc. i think clomid is better as a test booster than nolva though if you wanted to run it alone, or as a post cycle therapy (pct) to help get your natty test production back up. but that's what i use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for. and like the guy above said, nolva reduces igf. preference my friend, preference

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Clomid vs nolva is a matter of choice. Both drugs are close to identicle and each have it's pros/cons.
I prefer nolva over clomid. In Ology, for some reason, guys prefere clomid over nolva. But this is kinda old school and recently the use of clomid has decreased.
The only downside is that nolva reduces igf.
20mg of nolva raises the test levels by 150% while it requires 150mg of clomid to achieve that.
Nolva is more effective for gyno over clomid.
Besides the other side effects that comes with cycling clomid is Irreversible damage to vision.
Guys with already poor vision will notice this side immediatly.

I occasionally use clomid as a test booster and run it for 8weeks no more than 30 mg a day ( not pct).

This is not true, the studies your referring to were not studies on hypogonadal men, so they are pretty much useless in determining which one is better for someone with a suppressed HPGA.

In fact, Clomid is used much more clinically to treat hypogonadism than it ever has been. There is also ample clinical literature to show that clomid is effective at raising TT levels in hypogonadal men.

Clomid is a mixed agonist antagonist, so they are not identical. Clomid, since it acts like an estrogen at the pituitary, primes it for GNRH reception, which in turn stimulates more FSH and LH. Nolva has a more direct effect on LH, but this has not been proven in hypogonadal men.

You are correct that nolva is more effective for gyno, this is further proof they are not identical.

Vision problems have not been reported in smaller doses, this cam from the days when people were taking 300mg.

Nolva also lowers IGF-1, more than clomid respectively.
OAK

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

here is a Q and A with Dr. Scally on why to use both.

A: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.
Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.
Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.
In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with idiopathic oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.
Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.
In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.

 

[DADAWG]

Why do some many people advise against Nolvadex during post cycle therapy (pct), and just Clomid? Judging from the profile on the site - it's basically a miracle drug that can be used as during cycle to control E and during post cycle therapy (pct) to help stimulate test production.

Hit me with some knowledge bombs guys.

nolva doesnt control e , it blocks breast tissue / glands from estrogen. big difference.

 

[Avenger87]

If I intend on using Letro (starting at .25mg etd) as my Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is Nolva even necessary?

 

[DADAWG]

If I intend on using Letro (starting at .25mg etd) as my Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is Nolva even necessary?

not during the cycle.

 

[zephyr_987]

i just use nolva to keep from getting gyno 10mg a day during cycle. it did nothing for estrogen sides like bloat. used it for post cycle therapy (pct) and all i can say is i didnt get gyno. clomid would be a better choice post cycle therapy (pct)

 

[chain]

This is not true, the studies your referring to were not studies on hypogonadal men, so they are pretty much useless in determining which one is better for someone with a suppressed HPGA.

In fact, Clomid is used much more clinically to treat hypogonadism than it ever has been. There is also ample clinical literature to show that clomid is effective at raising TT levels in hypogonadal men.

Clomid is a mixed agonist antagonist, so they are not identical. Clomid, since it acts like an estrogen at the pituitary, primes it for GNRH reception, which in turn stimulates more FSH and LH. Nolva has a more direct effect on LH, but this has not been proven in hypogonadal men.

You are correct that nolva is more effective for gyno, this is further proof they are not identical.

Vision problems have not been reported in smaller doses, this cam from the days when people were taking 300mg.

Nolva also lowers IGF-1, more than clomid respectively.
OAK

There are studies ( literature reviews - not experiment) suggesting nolva is effective in raising test in individuals with suppressed hpga.

The major reason that clomid is vastly used clinically is because it is the safer one if run in lower doses, nolva is more potent though.

I called the two drugs close to identical which leaves a little room there, but nolva has been characterized as a mix agonist/ antagonist.

I have a Endorinologist in the family and he recommends using nolva over clomid.
Right now there are no studies supporting the use clomid over nolva. But tones of literature on the superiority of nolva.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

There are studies ( literature reviews - not experiment) suggesting nolva is effective in raising test in individuals with suppressed hpga.

The major reason that clomid is vastly used clinically is because it is the safer one if run in lower doses, nolva is more potent though.

I called the two drugs close to identical which leaves a little room there, but nolva has been characterized as a mix agonist/ antagonist.

I have a Endorinologist in the family and he recommends using nolva over clomid.
Right now there are no studies supporting the use clomid over nolva. But tones of literature on the superiority of nolva.

well lets see some recent literature on Nolva then, I am not opposed to learning something new, I too know many endo's, internal's and whatnot, as of right now, I am not aware of any literature showing Nolva is superior to clomid in the treatment of men with clinical hypogonadism.

I have also seen more than a couple handfuls of blood test's when Nolva was unsuccessful in returning someone to function after AAS cessation.

So basically what I am saying is it contradicts everything I have learned through experience and readings, so if there is a ton out there, I would like to see it.

 

[chain]

well lets see some recent literature on Nolva then, I am not opposed to learning something new, I too know many endo's, internal's and whatnot, as of right now, I am not aware of any literature showing Nolva is superior to clomid in the treatment of men with clinical hypogonadism.

I have also seen more than a couple handfuls of blood test's when Nolva was unsuccessful in returning someone to function after AAS cessation.

So basically what I am saying is it contradicts everything I have learned through experience and readings, so if there is a ton out there, I would like to see it.

There is no signal study experimenting on both compounds in the same context. The reason being why is primarily funding because there is no reason to, but also, it is pretty tough to design a study ( having a dependent and independent variables).
Thus the studies below have no reference in comparison between the two drugs.

Prostate Cancer and Prostatic Diseases (2005) 8, 75***8211;83. doi:10.1038/sj.pcan.4500782 Published online 1 February 2005

Prevention and management of bicalutamide-induced gynecomastia and breast pain: randomized endocrinologic and clinical studies with tamoxifen and anastrozole

Here is the abstract for the study.
Top of page
Abstract
A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled multicenter trial involving 107 men receiving bicalutamide ('Casodex') 150*mg/day therapy following radical therapy for prostate cancer assessed tamoxifen ('Nolvadex') 20*mg/day and anastrozole ('Arimidex') 1*mg/day for the prophylaxis and treatment of gynecomastia/breast pain. Tamoxifen, but not anastrozole, significantly reduced the incidence of gynecomastia/breast pain when used prophylactically and therapeutically. Serum testosterone levels increased with tamoxifen relative to placebo but prostate-specific antigen levels declined in all treatment groups. Further studies are needed to define the optimum tamoxifen dose and to assess any impact on cancer control. The use of tamoxifen in this setting remains to binvestigated.

I will post more !!

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

There is no signal study experimenting on both compounds in the same context. The reason being why is primarily funding because there is no reason to, but also, it is pretty tough to design a study ( having a dependent and independent variables).
Thus the studies below have no reference in comparison between the two drugs.

Prostate Cancer and Prostatic Diseases (2005) 8, 75***8211;83. doi:10.1038/sj.pcan.4500782 Published online 1 February 2005

Prevention and management of bicalutamide-induced gynecomastia and breast pain: randomized endocrinologic and clinical studies with tamoxifen and anastrozole

Here is the abstract for the study.
Top of page
Abstract
A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled multicenter trial involving 107 men receiving bicalutamide ('Casodex') 150*mg/day therapy following radical therapy for prostate cancer assessed tamoxifen ('Nolvadex') 20*mg/day and anastrozole ('Arimidex') 1*mg/day for the prophylaxis and treatment of gynecomastia/breast pain. Tamoxifen, but not anastrozole, significantly reduced the incidence of gynecomastia/breast pain when used prophylactically and therapeutically. Serum testosterone levels increased with tamoxifen relative to placebo but prostate-specific antigen levels declined in all treatment groups. Further studies are needed to define the optimum tamoxifen dose and to assess any impact on cancer control. The use of tamoxifen in this setting remains to binvestigated.

I will post more !!

this is a study between anastrozole and Nolva, not clomid.

it was also a study treating gyno. No one said Nolva doesn't raise testosterone, it just doesn't do it nearly as good as clomid.

Not to be a dick, but this study doesn't tell us anything.

 

[chain]

this is a study between anastrozole and Nolva, not clomid.

it was also a study treating gyno. No one said Nolva doesn't raise testosterone, it just doesn't do it nearly as good as clomid.

Not to be a dick, but this study doesn't tell us anything.

As I mentioned there is no study that compares the two drug nolva/clomid directly, there are many reasons for that, but not related to our discussion here.
So what we do is we study each compound individually and then form our opinion based on the conclusion on the study.
Fo instance in the study above it clearly indicates that nolva is nolva is not only effective for gyno control and treatment, which we both already agree on, but also a very strong drug to increase test rapidly and effectively, thus the LH. That is why I chose this study because of the TC patients.
I have other studies that I have reviewed previously that I wanted to share her but ....

I am gonna say this. Since there is no study that compares the two drugs in the same experiment or review (context) we are left with our own bias here and since we only have comparative data we can form our opinions based on those. But unfortunately once we are convinced that one drug is superior than the other (form a bias) then we look at points in studies to support our belief not to change it.
I had more studies to share but I guess you get my point.

Again it is a matter of opinion and one can choose one over the other but either one will do the job, but there would be case that particular individuals will respond to one but not the other.

 

[SicVic]

Just use both. How bad does nolva lower IGF-1 Levels and do they come back after nolva is done???

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

As I mentioned there is no study that compares the two drug nolva/clomid directly, there are many reasons for that, but not related to our discussion here.
So what we do is we study each compound individually and then form our opinion based on the conclusion on the study.
Fo instance in the study above it clearly indicates that nolva is nolva is not only effective for gyno control and treatment, which we both already agree on, but also a very strong drug to increase test rapidly and effectively, thus the LH. That is why I chose this study because of the TC patients.
I have other studies that I have reviewed previously that I wanted to share her but ....

I am gonna say this. Since there is no study that compares the two drugs in the same experiment or review (context) we are left with our own bias here and since we only have comparative data we can form our opinions based on those. But unfortunately once we are convinced that one drug is superior than the other (form a bias) then we look at points in studies to support our belief not to change it.
I had more studies to share but I guess you get my point.

Again it is a matter of opinion and one can choose one over the other but either one will do the job, but there would be case that particular individuals will respond to one but not the other.

no its not a matter of opinion, you can't use a study on gyno to determine if Nolva is effective at raising TT in hypogonadal men. Besides your study doesn't say how much the T was elevated, so again it's useless.

I have already explained why clomid works better than nolva, because of its estrogenic effects at the pituitary. Nolva is devoid of this activity.

So i don't understand how you think Nolva alone is ok, GNRH reception is one of the PRIMARY parts or restoring the HPGA.

all this not to mention reviews from people using the 2 compounds, and clomid is heavily favored.

So :

Clomid is favored by reviews
Clomid has substantial evidence backing up its use in hypogonadal men.

its not even close dude.

 

[chain]

no its not a matter of opinion, you can't use a study on gyno to determine if Nolva is effective at raising TT in hypogonadal men. Besides your study doesn't say how much the T was elevated, so again it's useless.

I have already explained why clomid works better than nolva, because of its estrogenic effects at the pituitary. Nolva is devoid of this activity.


So i don't understand how you think Nolva alone is ok, GNRH reception is one of the PRIMARY parts or restoring the HPGA.

all this not to mention reviews from people using the 2 compounds, and clomid is heavily favored.

So :

Clomid is favored by reviews
Clomid has substantial evidence backing up its use in hypogonadal men.

its not even close dude.

So let's see, here is a article byBill Llewellyn, He is he is the author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002 and is one of the bodybuilding world's foremost experts on androgens and anabolics. He is also the President of Molecular Nutrition.
Please read the whole study. but I have the conclusion here.
And it would be nice to see some studies from your point of view just a Q&A not enough, so please share some studies here.

Conclusion:
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced hpta - hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - , and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of lh - leutenizing hormone - stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gynecomastia and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.

 

[TaxEvader]

so the general consensus is nolvadex during cycle and clomid for PCT?

 

[Bowzer23]

I dont get why everyone here says no nolva but in the post cycle therapy (pct) sticky it say nolva alone is an acceptable post cycle therapy (pct)... i thought stickies were all knowing!

 

[zephyr_987]

yep. u can add Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) during post cycle therapy (pct) as well.