31 yr old, low T, won't get TRT prescribed

[LowT_Rob]

Hallo guys,

I am a 31 year old male from Germany battling borderline low testosterone. These are my symptoms for many years:

- depression
- several anxiety disorders (not caused by low T, but aggravated by it!)
- fatigue
- increased body fat
- hair loss
- lack of concentration and word finding difficulties
- general decline in cognitive abilites
- tendency for water retention (not sure if this is related to low T)
- poor erections and very low libido

In 2005 my testosterone levels were still that of a young healthy male (~750 ng/dl) and I felt so much better than I do nowadays. In 2011 I had my levels checked again twice and they came out at ~350 ng/dl and 400 ng/dl (not much for a 28 year old guy). The doc refused to do anything about it as I was still within the "normal" range.
Several weeks ago I decided to have my levels checked again by a new doc as I've felt the worst I've ever had for almost an entire year. The first test came out at ~280 ng/dl, the second at ~400 ng/dl. The new doc again refused to treat me as the second test was within range. He wouldn't even give me a 1-month sample of T-gel to see how it would affect me. FT was also at the lower end of the spectrum, but I don’t have the exact figures at hand right now.

I'm convinced the vast majority of docs would refuse to prescribe TRT since my levels aren't below 250 ng/dl which, here in Germany, is the low end of the normal range. When it comes to TRT we are still in stone age in Germany.
So I decided to take matters into my own hands and bought 5 vials of Omnadren 250 from a reputable pharmacy in Eastern Europe. I simply needed to know how it feels like to have proper T levels. Since then I've injected myself twice (3 days apart) and within hours and days I felt so much better in all respect! Unfortunately, the effects declinded after a few days which led me to believe that I will have to inject more frequently, with a higher dosage or simply be more patient until the full effects manifest.
After the initial 500 dose, I now plan to inject myself once ever week a single 250 vial Omnadren. No idea if this is a proper dosing scheme.

Basically my goal now is to self medicate with the Omnadren for a couple of months and then get off it cold turkey. With my endogenous T-levels being suppressed, I will have my levels checked again and hope to get TRT prescribed then. I know this is cheating, but the medical system in Germany forces me to go this desperate route.

So my questions to you guys are:

1) How long, based on your experience, do I have to take the Omnadren until my natural T-levels are definitely suppressed far enough to get TRT prescribed?

2) How long should my Omnadren washout period be until I can have my T levels checked again? Are 4-6 weeks enough?

3) Which dosing protocol do you suggest for the Omnadren 250 so that I get enough suppression and at the same time feel good for a couple of months?

4) Right now I can't easily get hCG. I only have some Clomifene left. Can I use this is combination with the Omnadren to keep my balls from shrinking and sperm production and thus fertility active?

5) Without any hCG or Clomifene, is it possible to become permanently infertile after using Omnadren for a couple of months? Or aren’t a few months of TRT even enough to make one infertile in the first place?

6) The injections into the shoulder come with pain in the days after the injection. Which needle size should I use if I decide to switch to injecting into the thighs?


Thank you so much for any help!


Robert

 

[sanipialo]

You are injection yourself every 3 days with Omnadren 250, which is the same as Sustanon 250. That is a terribly TRT treatment at a very high dosage. An initial of 500 and 250 a week is not TRT dosage.

After a few months trail, you are going to go off cold turkey, which is another bad idea. Your doctor is not stupid. Based on you FSH and LH he/she is going to see you have been doing something.

Read this http://www.steroidology.com/forum/testosterone-replacement-therapy/662394-basic-trt-overview.html

Do more research before you mess-up your body!

 

[Megatron28]

How are you going to fake your LH and FSH? I would have to think that your doc will check those levels.

Can you think of anything that has changed since your TT used to be at 750ng/dl? Any head or testicle trauma? Any diseases? Sleep paterns changed? Diet changed? Thyroid function changed? Etc..

What were your LH and FSH at when you had those different labs done? I am curious know whether or not you are a candidate for an HPTA restart.

 

[LowT_Rob]

You are injection yourself every 3 days with Omnadren 250, which is the same as Sustanon 250. That is a terribly TRT treatment at a very high dosage. An initial of 500 and 250 a week is not TRT dosage.

After a few months trail, you are going to go off cold turkey, which is another bad idea. Your doctor is not stupid. Based on you FSH and LH he/she is going to see you have been doing something.

Read this steroidology.com/forum/testosterone-replacement-therapy/662394-basic-trt-overview.html

Do more research before you mess-up your body!

sanipialo, thank you very much for your input. What would you consider a good TRT dosing protocol with Omnadren 250? I mean, it has been manufactured for this purpose, so there must be one, right? Is one 250 injection every two weeks better? And how would you taper it off? Right now, I can only get hands on Omnadren froma reliable place for TRT, no Tcyp or enanthate.

Not sure if there is a way to fake LH and FSH. I guess they will simply be out of whack after the Omnadren cycle. But I won't confess to steroid injection to my doc.
What do you think will he do if he see lab results that indicate steroid usage, even though I insist I didn't use any?

 

[LowT_Rob]

How are you going to fake your LH and FSH? I would have to think that your doc will check those levels.

Can you think of anything that has changed since your TT used to be at 750ng/dl? Any head or testicle trauma? Any diseases? Sleep paterns changed? Diet changed? Thyroid function changed? Etc..

What were your LH and FSH at when you had those different labs done? I am curious know whether or not you are a candidate for an HPTA restart.

Back sometime in 2005 or 2006 my psychiatrist started me on SSRI for anxiety disorders. In the following years I went through dozens of psychotropic meds, none of which brought enough relief for my anxiety issues. Considering all the medication I took between 2005 and 2011 I am not surprised to see my testosterone levels being low even though I don't know if there is a link. Over the course of these 6 years I also developed depression/dysthimia.

When I took the T test in 2011, I had been off all meds for a couple of months though. My levels never recovered.

I also think there is a genetic link as my dad also had low T levels at a young age. However, he didn't receive more than two shots before he decided to stop treatment. He also never specified how low his levels were. I guess he doesn't know anymore. It was a time when docs still thought that T injections would kickstart engogenous production.

 

[Megatron28]

Back sometime in 2005 or 2006 my psychiatrist started me on SSRI for anxiety disorders. In the following years I went through dozens of psychotropic meds, none of which brought enough relief for my anxiety issues. Considering all the medication I took between 2005 and 2011 I am not surprised to see my testosterone levels being low even though I don't know if there is a link. Over the course of these 6 years I also developed depression/dysthimia.

When I took the T test in 2011, I had been off all meds for a couple of months though. My levels never recovered.

I also think there is a genetic link as my dad also had low T levels at a young age. However, he didn't receive more than two shots before he decided to stop treatment. He also never specified how low his levels were. I guess he doesn't know anymore. It was a time when docs still thought that T injections would kickstart engogenous production.

There is a link between SSRI use and Low T. You should try an HPTA restart. I highly recommend that you try a restart and stop taking Sustanon.

Just so you know, when you take exogenous testosterone, it shuts off your LH and FSH which in turn shuts off your natural testosterone production. You doc won't need you to confess that you are on something. You LH and FSH will be all the proof he or she needs.

 

[LowT_Rob]

There is a link between SSRI use and Low T. You should try an HPTA restart. I highly recommend that you try a restart and stop taking Sustanon.

Just so you know, when you take exogenous testosterone, it shuts off your LH and FSH which in turn shuts off your natural testosterone production. You doc won't need you to confess that you are on something. You LH and FSH will be all the proof he or she needs.

Thanks for all your prompt answers. I suspected there was a link between SSRI and Low T. The thing is though, that the low T persists even after having stopped taking SSRI for years.

Actually, I already tried a restart. I think I took 25mg or 12.5mg Clomifene EOD for just two weeks, then went to an urologist to have my levels checked and T as well as DHT were at about 750 ng/dl. Unfortunately though, I didn't feel any better and my hairloss accelerated extremely. For some reason the T injections I use now feel very different to the Clomifene. I only get relief from the former and so far my hairloss hasn't accelerated either.
Could the lack of benefits be due to the antiestrogenic properties of Clomifene?

I would still consider going back to Clomifene and give it more time, but I am sceptical as to whether this will work for me. I'm also afraid the hairloss will cause depression itself (and it will certainly come with Clomifene!).
Actually I am quite surprised that Clomifene isn't used by more patients with low T. I mean isn't it always preferable to kickstart one's own production?


EDIT: Problem with Clomifene is also, that the results didn't persist. Now I am back to low T although I gave Clomifene a try.

 

[hiram1st]

I am not advocating self prescribed TRT but you know that testosterone aromatizes into to estrogen because of the aromatase enzyme?.

The aromatase enzyme is the enzyme responsible for the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Any testosterone based steroids aromatize to estrogen. In order to avoid excess estrogen an aromatase inhibitor should be used when using exogeneous Test.

High E2 will give you a whole nother issue to deal with.

 

[Megatron28]

Thanks for all your prompt answers. I suspected there was a link between SSRI and Low T. The thing is though, that the low T persists even after having stopped taking SSRI for years.

Actually, I already tried a restart. I think I took 25mg or 12.5mg Clomifene EOD for just two weeks, then went to an urologist to have my levels checked and T as well as DHT were at about 750 ng/dl. Unfortunately though, I didn't feel any better and my hairloss accelerated extremely. For some reason the T injections I use now feel very different to the Clomifene. I only get relief from the former and so far my hairloss hasn't accelerated either.
Could the lack of benefits be due to the antiestrogenic properties of Clomifene?

I would still consider going back to Clomifene and give it more time, but I am sceptical as to whether this will work for me. I'm also afraid the hairloss will cause depression itself (and it will certainly come with Clomifene!).
Actually I am quite surprised that Clomifene isn't used by more patients with low T. I mean isn't it always preferable to kickstart one's own production?


EDIT: Problem with Clomifene is also, that the results didn't persist. Now I am back to low T although I gave Clomifene a try.

Two weeks is not enough time. You can see that in the short time you ran it that it helped get your HPTA working again. I would recommend running it for about three months at 25mg daily. Then come off it and check your blood work three months after stopping the clomid. Hopefully your natural testosterone levels will remain at a healthy level.

Getting your HPTA working again is a much better option that going on TRT for the rest of your life. If the clomid doesn't work then you can go on TRT.

As for your hair loss and psychological issues, I high recommend that you work with a psychologist while doing this treatment.

 

[cybrsage]

Getting your HPTA working again is a much better option that going on TRT for the rest of your life. If the clomid doesn't work then you can go on TRT.

I agree with Mega here. I am on TRT and would MUCH rather not be on it. There have been some good side effects, such as finding this forum (and therefor 3J) and having 100% legal bottles of testosterone in my house...but the negative of having to inject myself for life JUST TO BE NORMAL is huge.

 

[IMT staff]

The problem is clomid will probably work to get his T levels up, it just won't reverse the negative symptoms. This is because clomid is a mixed agonist antagonist and acts like estrogen in the body.

 

[LowT_Rob]

The problem is clomid will probably work to get his T levels up, it just won't reverse the negative symptoms. This is because clomid is a mixed agonist antagonist and acts like estrogen in the body.

Yes, that's what I guess is going to happen, too.

My question is, could it be enough to use as low as 5 or 10mg of Clomid to get your T levels up with a minimum amount of Clomid's anti-estogenic/pro-estrogenic effects? I read through a rather long thread on Mind & Muscle a couple of years ago and one (or possibly more) users used such tiny amounts and were able to get into the 500-600 T range.

I might try that. What do you guys think? Based on what I read so far I think that Clomid is way overdosed in many cases.

 

[IMT staff]

We find it usually takes 18-25 mg to get to those T levels. And you will probably need 50mg to get maximal stimulation.

 

[LowT_Rob]

I forgot to mention that I also took finansteride for about a year. While it raises T levels by about 10% acutely, lots of people (in particular on propeciahelp.com) have reported crushed T levels after stopping finasteride. Is this a known correlation here?

 

[Alpin]

Pretty sure Finasteride messes with T in a negative way.
SSRI'S (although not confirmed by studies cause the drug companies don't want that stuff out there) I believe messes with T by lowering it. Other psytropics like anti psychotics are absolutely linked to lower FSH/LH levels and lower T cause they increase prolactin. ..
Theres studies on it at pubmed

 

[Alpin]

Effect of risperidone and olanzapine on reproductive hormones, psyc... - PubMed - NCBI

Study link.

 

[Alpin]

Back sometime in 2005 or 2006 my psychiatrist started me on SSRI for anxiety disorders. In the following years I went through dozens of psychotropic meds, none of which brought enough relief for my anxiety issues. Considering all the medication I took between 2005 and 2011 I am not surprised to see my testosterone levels being low even though I don't know if there is a link. Over the course of these 6 years I also developed depression/dysthimia.

When I took the T test in 2011, I had been off all meds for a couple of months though. My levels never recovered.

I also think there is a genetic link as my dad also had low T levels at a young age. However, he didn't receive more than two shots before he decided to stop treatment. He also never specified how low his levels were. I guess he doesn't know anymore. It was a time when docs still thought that T injections would kickstart engogenous production.

Any idea how your adrenals/thyroid are functioning?
That stuff absolutely plays a role in anxiety, well being etc...
I see no laboratory work with pituitary hormones like LH, FSH and Prolactin, Estradiol etc.

 

[Alpin]

Two weeks of clomid ain't gonna do anything for you...
especially those very low doses..
I wouldn't put alot of stock in 12.5 mg EOD for 2 weeks restarting you.