A mini-cycle. Anyone see any problems?

[Virginian]

I'm 71, 150 pounds, been on TRT for a year, and was taking 44 mg every 4 days (equivalent to 77 mg/week), which is what my doctor recommends. That amount seems to give me a troth of roughly 650 ng/dL.

The results seemed Ok, but less than I would like. Workouts, biking, muscle growth, and fat loss not quite as good as I would like.

So I decided to up the dose to see the effects. For the last few weeks I have been on 80 mg every 4 days (equivalent to 140 mg/week). I also added 0.25 mg of adex every 3 days. My guess is that my troth is in the 900 to 1000 range. I'll drop back my dose before my next blood test/doctor visit to keep the doctor happy.

I like the results. Workouts and biking are noticeably better. Physique slightly better.

Does anyone see any problems with going on mini-cycles like this? Would it be OK to use even higher doses? If so, how much higher?

 

[Mprtz]

Your doctor is being very conservative, and from a pure health perspective that is probably fine.
If you shoot for a higher (>1000) level, here's what I see as the potential problems:

* Harder to manage HCT, may need to donate blood more frequently
* Harder to manage E2, need (more) AI
* More likely to affect lipids negatively
* Possible for strength to exceed ability of aging connective tissue to recover leading to injury.

200mg per week is generally (and somewhat arbitrarily) regarded as the upper limit of therapeutic dosage.

EDIT: it's not a mini cycle here, it's enhanced therapy

 

[lucius11]

Sure, a bunch of us do this kind of thing. Increase the dose for a while, then drop back for a while and also get blood work done for the local docs. I don't go over 200mg per week like mprts said. 200mg per week really sets my levels at the upper end of the normal range. Right now I'm at 80mg 2x per week.

In my case, I get my TRT through an HRT clinic and I keep them in the loop on my dose and they also prescribe everything for me. I just make sure my regular docs get nice normal blood work once a year with fairly low T levels (and all other levels in the normal range as best is possible) so that they are happy. If my regular docs see blood levels outside the normal range, they think something is wrong. But I know it's just from the increased T levels. So this can cause the local docs some confusion and they may feel the need to investigate. So it's nice to avoid this.

Like mprts said, if you go this route your hemoglobin/hematocrit may start to rise pretty quickly. At 200mg per week I have to donate blood every 2 months consistently just to keep these levels in check. You should plan on running your own blood work every so often to keep tabs on everything while you are running a higher dose. I would donate blood a week to 10 days before doing the blood work for your local doc, just to be on the safe side.

 

[Megatron28]

This is not a cycle. You are still keeping your Total Testosterone in the normal range at this increased dosage. A cycle is normally 500mg/week or more.

If you like the higher TT levels and you see no ill effects, you should tell your doctor that you want to increase your dosage. Tell him about the experiment you ran and let him see the blood work. If he pushes back on you remind him strongly that you are still in the normal range.

 

[Alpin]

How do you measure 44 mg in a T dose?

 

[methos0123]

with a one ml syringe.

 

[Virginian]

How do you measure 44 mg in a T dose?

Easy. 0.22 ml on a 0.5 ml 29 gauge half inch insulin syringe backloaded. It injects slow, but it works. Doctor prefers sub Q because release is slower and more even, but 1/2 inch in my thigh seems to be IM.

 

[Spunkey71]

Just be careful, I have heard of other guys doing what you are doing and they run out of Test before they are able to get a refill and are forced to have to go a few weeks without anything.


Best of luck!

 

[JimiThing]

This is not a cycle. You are still keeping your Total Testosterone in the normal range at this increased dosage. A cycle is normally 500mg/week or more.

If you like the higher TT levels and you see no ill effects, you should tell your doctor that you want to increase your dosage. Tell him about the experiment you ran and let him see the blood work. If he pushes back on you remind him strongly that you are still in the normal range.

This is an excellent post. Get your Dr on board and its win win. Then you have the support of him and the access to the blood work etc to ensure at the higher dose is properly managed. (ai/e2, lipids, Hema, etc)
Let us know how this goes. Also with Doc support you will have access to legit pharma test. Thats important.

 

[lucius11]

Possible for strength to exceed ability of aging connective tissue to recover leading to injury

This is also a very important point. I'm in my 50s and I live with this every day. I have had some issues with my lower bicep tendon at the right elbow and have to be very careful with my shoulders. I had to do several rounds of physical therapy to get things healed. Everything is working well now but this took me a few years to get sorted out. My problem was lifting a little too heavy (lower reps in the 4-6 range for example) and allowing the form to slip. This just grinds my joints apart. Be careful in the gym. Increased test levels will not help much if you are injured and can't exercise. I pretty much have enough strength now to blow up any and all of my joints. My solution is to generally keep the reps higher (in the 15+ range) and push as close to failure as possible while maintaining the best form that I can. I do go heavier (lower reps) on occasion on certain exercises, but I know from experience that this greatly increases the risk of damaging my connecting tissues.

 

[swilk]

My test is scriped to be filled every 28 days .... and insurance pays every 28 days. 10ml / 200mg per ml.

I only use 160mg per week. At the end of my 28 days I still have 3/4 vial left. No fear of ever running out .....

I have thought long and hard about doing a 8 week cycle .... never done any type of cycle before.

I already regularly monitor blood levels and donate blood every 56 days to keep RBC in check. I am having a hard time coming up with a reason not to blast ..... nearly 40 years old. Good diet. Otherwise healthy.

 

[Spunkey71]

My test is scriped to be filled every 28 days .... and insurance pays every 28 days. 10ml / 200mg per ml.

I only use 160mg per week. At the end of my 28 days I still have 3/4 vial left. No fear of ever running out .....

I have thought long and hard about doing a 8 week cycle .... never done any type of cycle before.

I already regularly monitor blood levels and donate blood every 56 days to keep RBC in check. I am having a hard time coming up with a reason not to blast ..... nearly 40 years old. Good diet. Otherwise healthy.

Let us know how it goes, just make sure to return to your normal dosage a couple of weeks prier to a blood test, no need getting caught blasting and losing your TRT script all together.

 

[swilk]

For the time being I am paying for my own blood work and bypassing my doc ... even though my insurance will pay for it if I go through the doc.

I then forward a copy to the doc for my file.

Its a pretty decent relationship so far ......

 

[Mprtz]

My test is scriped to be filled every 28 days .... and insurance pays every 28 days. 10ml / 200mg per ml.

I only use 160mg per week. At the end of my 28 days I still have 3/4 vial left. No fear of ever running out .....

I have thought long and hard about doing a 8 week cycle .... never done any type of cycle before.

I already regularly monitor blood levels and donate blood every 56 days to keep RBC in check. I am having a hard time coming up with a reason not to blast ..... nearly 40 years old. Good diet. Otherwise healthy.

Kudos to your doc for not forcing you to use expired medication as apparently many do. Shows a lot of trust too.

 

[Virginian]

Your doctor is being very conservative, and from a pure health perspective that is probably fine.
If you shoot for a higher (>1000) level, here's what I see as the potential problems:

* Harder to manage HCT, may need to donate blood more frequently
* Harder to manage E2, need (more) AI
* More likely to affect lipids negatively
* Possible for strength to exceed ability of aging connective tissue to recover leading to injury.

200mg per week is generally (and somewhat arbitrarily) regarded as the upper limit of therapeutic dosage.

it's not a mini cycle here, it's enhanced therapy

Helpful reply. Thanks.

I like "enhanced therapy" rather than "mini-cycle." It sounds better.

Right now I'm not too concerned about hemocrit. Reading on lower doses was 43.6%. Last reading after 3 weeks of higher doses was still 43.6%. And I don't mind donating blood.

E2 could become an issue. We'll see. My doctor checks lipids very carefully and they have been very good (with the assistance of massive medicine) - total cholesterol was 136, HDL 57, LDL 67.

The injury part is pretty relevant to me. I did some heavy leg exercises and think that they injured my knee. Almost 50 years ago I had a very serious injury to my knee cap. It was repaired by surgery. Then about 15 years ago I got some serious pain. Doctor said stop jogging. (Doctor was also amazed at the good quality of the original surgery.) I stopped jogging and leg weight training and within a few months pain was gone.

Then after seeing the strength I was getting from TRT, I decided to start leg exercises again with pretty heavy weights to increase my strength for biking. Everything was fine until I want on an extremely difficult hike - many hours on a trail that was all rocks. I was in pain by the end but it was too late. Doctor said be gentle and it may by OK for a while, but at some point a knee replacement is in my future. So I really believe that I have to be very careful.

 

[Virginian]

If you like the higher TT levels and you see no ill effects, you should tell your doctor that you want to increase your dosage. Tell him about the experiment you ran and let him see the blood work. If he pushes back on you remind him strongly that you are still in the normal range.

I will tell the doctor that I want to increase dosage but not as much as I am taking. Looking back at an old result I see that when my total T was 827 ng/dL (range 250-1100), my free T was out of range 162 pg/mL (range 30-135). I am concerned that the doctor will want the free test to be out of range.

 

[Virginian]

This is also a very important point. I'm in my 50s and I live with this every day. I have had some issues with my lower bicep tendon at the right elbow and have to be very careful with my shoulders. I had to do several rounds of physical therapy to get things healed. Everything is working well now but this took me a few years to get sorted out. My problem was lifting a little too heavy (lower reps in the 4-6 range for example) and allowing the form to slip. This just grinds my joints apart. Be careful in the gym. Increased test levels will not help much if you are injured and can't exercise. I pretty much have enough strength now to blow up any and all of my joints. My solution is to generally keep the reps higher (in the 15+ range) and push as close to failure as possible while maintaining the best form that I can. I do go heavier (lower reps) on occasion on certain exercises, but I know from experience that this greatly increases the risk of damaging my connecting tissues.

I know you are right. I will really have to be careful, more careful than I have been.

 

[Virginian]

Let us know how it goes, just make sure to return to your normal dosage a couple of weeks prier to a blood test, no need getting caught blasting and losing your TRT script all together.

I see the doctor next in late October. I'll let you know the results.

 

[Virginian]

These are my results from being on "enhanced TRT" or a "mini-cycle" for the last 7 weeks. (Recall that I had been on 77 mg/week and bumped that up to 140 mg/week.)

STRENGTH - A little stronger in the gym lifting weights. Almost all the gain was in the first few weeks.

BIKING - Substantially improved strength and hill climbing ability in the first few weeks and then a plateau.

SEXUAL - no change.

APPEARANCE/PHYSIQUE - A little better. 3 pound weight gain. A little more muscle mass. A little more cut appearance, probably due to a loss of fat. More vascularity. Harder feeling muscles.

MOOD/PERSONALITY - No change in mood. Personality a little more outgoing and more likely to speak up. (I'm naturally shy.)

MUSCLE ACHES - This is a negative. Muscles seem tighter and stiffer, less flexible. Prone to soreness. Seem to momentarily contract/cramp-up due to sudden pressure or stress. Sort of like a cramp, but lasts only a second, so not really a cramp. Anyone else experience this?

PSA - PSA rose last time it was tested. This is a concern. Next bloods will indicate if it was an anomaly or the start of a trend.

NEXT STEPS - I'm going to drop the dose back down to about 90 mg/week. The next few weeks I will be sedentary while on a trip so no need for enhanced doses. Also, preparing for blood work and a doctor visit and I don't want numbers out of range. I respond to testosterone quite strongly. 77 mg/week seems to give me a trough to peak range of about 700-800 ng/dL (range 250 to 1100). 140 mg/week seems to give about 1000 to 1200 ng/dL and free testosterone between 20 to 30 ng/dL (range 3 to 13.5).

 

[Virginian]

Get your Dr on board and its win win. Then you have the support of him and the access to the blood work etc to ensure at the higher dose is properly managed. (ai/e2, lipids, Hema, etc)
Let us know how this goes. Also with Doc support you will have access to legit pharma test. Thats important.

Visited doctor after last blood work. TT = 1067 (range 300-1100), free T = 259 (range 30-135), HCT = 42 (just after a blood donation). Those values were just 2 days after injection, not just before the next injection, so they are near peak. (I did that because I wanted to have a better idea of my peak values.)

Doctor didn't like peak values. Thought the free T was too high. Told me to get next blood work just before the injection, saying those measurements should be compared with the ranges. However, she was fine with my going up to 0.3ml (60mg) E4D.

I think my HCT is too low and I should be donating blood less often. I go on some hard fast bike rides and this last time I was rally slow and just gasping for air. I do much better with a HCT around 48.