Aromasin

[T0k3z]

Since I have seen people recommend varying dosages, Is it better to begin aromasin at 12.5mg eod and increase to 12.5mg ed if symptoms arise or to just begin at 12.5mg ed? Also, I know other AIs are not to be taken through post cycle therapy (pct), however, I have seen it recommended to continue aromasin through PCT and in some cases even to up the dose to 25mg ed during, any advice on this from experienced users?

 

[kaname]

It's better to start low as I believe it was halfwit who said "it's easier to bring your estro down than it is to bring it back up." Think that was halfwit....yea I'm pretty sure it was that sounds like him. Anyway so the EOD and increase as needed is fine. As for as running it through post cycle therapy (pct), what is your cycle?

 

[T0k3z]

Just Test E @ 500mg per week, 12 weeks

 

[kaname]

Just Test E @ 500mg per week, 12 weeks

You should be fine with your normal Serms. People tend to run an A.I. for part of PCT to help prevent rebound, but with Aromasin you shouldn't have that problem (if I'm not mistaken). The other reason for Aromasin specifically would be due to it helping increase test levels by a small margin / percent. I doubt you will be fighting very hard to get it back up, but then again everyone is different as they say.... <~~~~I kind of sound like a politician.

Run the A.I. up to approx 2 days before starting post cycle therapy (pct). Then move on with your Serms.

 

[supersafado]

I know a lot of people that run aromasin straight through post cycle therapy (pct). that is kind of the best thing about aromasin.

 

[MattyIce]

Bro... continue Aromasin throughout post cycle therapy (pct). The benefits are only positive. Not only controlling estro... stimulating test production. Start at 12.5 eod and go from there.

 

[teninchessoft]

I'm doing 12.5mg ed, it's working well for me.

 

[Docd187]

Bro... continue Aromasin throughout post cycle therapy (pct). The benefits are only positive. Not only controlling estro... stimulating test production. Start at 12.5 eod and go from there.

And the cons are only negative. Running exemestane during PCT can completely crash your estrogen levels. I'd say that's not a positive.

 

[Docd187]

You should be fine with your normal Serms. People tend to run an A.I. for part of PCT to help prevent rebound, but with Aromasin you shouldn't have that problem (if I'm not mistaken). The other reason for Aromasin specifically would be due to it helping increase test levels by a small margin / percent. I doubt you will be fighting very hard to get it back up, but then again everyone is different as they say.... <~~~~I kind of sound like a politician.

Run the A.I. up to approx 2 days before starting post cycle therapy (pct). Then move on with your Serms.

I know some ppl like to run Aromatase inhibitor (AI) during PCT for those reasons but IMO its not a great idea unless gyno is a problem since your test levels are dropping from the discontinuation of exogenous test and your body will slow down/cease aromatization based on this. Yes there will be a rebound in estrogen levels but this is what Nolvadex is used for. Using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and nolva on PCT would completely crash your estrogen levels and like half-wit said, its easier lowering estrogen than it is bringing it back up, especially post-cycle.

Yes one benefit of exemestane is the lack of estrogen rebound but that's applicable to the rebound of estrogen that comes from its suppression, not the rebound of estrogen from discontinuing exogenous test use (at least my understand from reading a few studies on pubmed and jcem). Clomid is supposed to have an even greater effect on test levels than exemestane and its already being used in PCT.

 

[MattyIce]

And the cons are only negative. Running exemestane during PCT can completely crash your estrogen levels. I'd say that's not a positive.

will only crash if you use too much too often... as with anytime on or off cycle. Aromasin during PCT is advised.

 

[Docd187]

will only crash if you use too much too often... as with anytime on or off cycle. Aromasin during PCT is advised.

As is the case while on cycle as well but during PCT you don't have estrogen aromatizing from exogenous test use. Therein lies the issue. Plus the typical recommended dosage is 12.5-25mg of exemstane. Exemestane exhibits estrogen suppression qualities at a dose of as low as 5mg and maximum effective dose for estrogen suppression at 25mg (that's 85-95% suppression). You wouldn't need this much simply for an estrogen rebound coming off a cycle for PCT but you would need it for on cycle where excess test is being aromatized daily. My point remains, during post cycle therapy (pct), you are no longer taking any aromatizing agents and therefore run a higher risk of crashing estrogen levels. It's not needed nor necessarily recommended unless you are extremely prone to aromatization with the low level rebound.

 

[Jdcsd]

As is the case while on cycle as well but during PCT you don't have estrogen aromatizing from exogenous test use. Therein lies the issue. Plus the typical recommended dosage is 12.5-25mg of exemstane. Exemestane exhibits estrogen suppression qualities at a dose of as low as 5mg and maximum effective dose for estrogen suppression at 25mg (that's 85-95% suppression). You wouldn't need this much simply for an estrogen rebound coming off a cycle for PCT but you would need it for on cycle where excess test is being aromatized daily. My point remains, during post cycle therapy (pct), you are no longer taking any aromatizing agents and therefore run a higher risk of crashing estrogen levels. It's not needed nor necessarily recommended unless you are extremely prone to aromatization with the low level rebound.

So you think it's better to just run nolva with clomid vs aromasin with clomid for post cycle therapy (pct)? I was planning on doing clomid aromasin since I will have enough to run it through pct

 

[SolomonGrundy]

Aromasin during pct is good
Use it 20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily last week)

 

[kaname]

I think you and I were already in agreement pimp-n. I just was explaining why some run their pct that way.

I know some ppl like to run Aromatase inhibitor (AI) during PCT for those reasons but IMO its not a great idea unless gyno is a problem since your test levels are dropping from the discontinuation of exogenous test and your body will slow down/cease aromatization based on this. Yes there will be a rebound in estrogen levels but this is what Nolvadex is used for. Using an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) and nolva on PCT would completely crash your estrogen levels and like half-wit said, its easier lowering estrogen than it is bringing it back up, especially post-cycle.

Yes one benefit of exemestane is the lack of estrogen rebound but that's applicable to the rebound of estrogen that comes from its suppression, not the rebound of estrogen from discontinuing exogenous test use (at least my understand from reading a few studies on pubmed and jcem). Clomid is supposed to have an even greater effect on test levels than exemestane and its already being used in PCT.

 

[Docd187]

So you think it's better to just run nolva with clomid vs aromasin with clomid for post cycle therapy (pct)? I was planning on doing clomid aromasin since I will have enough to run it through pct

Take my views on the matter with a grain of salt. I'm running my first cycle as we speak so I can't talk of anecdotal evidence just what I've gathered from this site and reading in studies. I'm attempting to view the big picture here and it's confusing to say the least. We worry about too high Aromatase inhibitor (AI) dosing while on cycle and how it can crash estrogen levels. But those estrogen levels are unnaturally high due to the testosterone (or other AAS) aromatizing in your system. Now when you come off test and get to starting PCT these androgenics are mostly metabolized out of your system so the level of aromatization should drop significantly. My thought process here is that if we're worried about crashing estrogen levels while on cycle (and they should theoretically be higher at this point) why are we not worried about crashing estrogen during PCT when they should be lower? Exemestane is typically recommended to be dosed on cycle starting at around 12.5mg/ED AND and that's enough for some ppl to keep estrogen in check. I see Brhees is recommending an even HIGHER dosage during post cycle therapy (pct). Why that high? Why at all? Nolva should do an able job of blocking the receptors unless you're very prone to aromatization so why the need for exemestane and risk crashing estrogen when everybody recommends blood work before, after, and mid-cycle....I've yet to see any recommendation for bloods during post cycle therapy (pct). I'm just as worried about one extreme as I am another and clomid nolva combo has been shown to do an effective job for post cycle therapy (pct). now if you were doing an Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) blast before post cycle therapy (pct), sure you can run an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) during that blast period and taper it down in PCT since Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) can cause acute stimulated aromatization. But no Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) protocol and its anybody's guess really. I'm trying to follow science and logic here, not old wives tales and "my source told me so". I'm not directing this at Brhees in anyway since he is a quality poster in here and gives solid advice. I'm questioning how we reached this conclusion that exemestane or any Aromatase inhibitor (AI) during PCT is good.

 

[Ridiculous87]

Also, as mentioned in another thread, Aromasin can cause non-alcoholic steatohepatitis and so can Novaldex (just do a google search there are tons of cases of both) which can lead to liver cancer. Stacking noval and stane uneccessarily doesn't seem to be the smartest approach.

After coming accross this news, Milk Thistle is going to become a staple of my stack.

 

[juced_porkchop]

Aromasin during post cycle therapy (pct) is good
Use it 20mg/20mg/20mg/10mg (20mg daily for 3 weeks, 10mg daily last week)

good for what? at post cycle therapy (pct) your E and test levels should be low ( why you wai a couple weeks) just use a clomid and tamox combo for a better post cycle therapy (pct). an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) during post cycle therapy (pct) is sort of pointless.

 

[juced_porkchop]

Also, as mentioned in another thread, Aromasin can cause non-alcoholic steatohepatitis and so can Novaldex (just do a google search there are tons of cases of both) which can lead to liver cancer. Stacking noval and stane uneccessarily doesn't seem to be the smartest approach.

After coming across this news, Milk Thistle is going to become a staple of my stack.

Show me these studies. (not studies on cancer people that are on these drugs for many months at a time and at high doses)

post cycle therapy (pct) is short and i have never seen anyone have an issue with 3-5 week post cycle therapy (pct) on liver. sure you run these things for months on end something may be effected.
I agree not stacking the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with the nolva though. but i would stack it with some clomid if anything.

 

[Ridiculous87]

Show me these studies. (not studies on cancer people that are on these drugs for many months at a time and at high doses)

PCT is short and i have never seen anyone have an issue with 3-5 week pct on liver. sure you run these things for months on end something may be effected.
I agree not stacking the Aromatase inhibitor (AI) with the nolva though. but i would stack it with some clomid if anything.

Breast Cancer Topic: Aromasin and NASH
Can Aromasin cause Fatty Liver? - Page 2
http://www.tennesseefamilymedicine.com/Tennessee_Family_Medicine/Resources_files/fatty liver.pdf

Some of these people were only on for a few months, a similar length of a cycle
+ break before post cycle therapy (pct). This is why I was saying staying on it for PCT as well is a bad idea - another month straight taking this stuff.

Theres more that show up in a google search.

Here's a post I found on another forum about Nolvadex:

1: AJR Am J Roentgenol. 2003 Jan;180(1):129-34. Related Articles, Links


Effects of tamoxifen on hepatic fat content and the development of hepatic steatosis in patients with breast cancer: high frequency of involvement and rapid reversal after completion of tamoxifen therapy.

Nishino M, Hayakawa K, Nakamura Y, Morimoto T, Mukaihara S.

Department of Radiology, Kyoto City Hospital, 1-2 Higashi-takada-cho, Mibu, Nakagyo-ku, Kyoto 604-8845, Japan.

OBJECTIVE: A study was conducted on hepatic fat content to investigate the frequency and clinical course of hepatic steatosis induced by tamoxifen. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Sixty-seven patients with breast cancer treated with adjuvant tamoxifen were included. The patients underwent postoperative annual abdominal CT, both with and without contrast enhancement, for 5 years. We retrospectively reviewed unenhanced CT images and obtained hepatic and splenic CT attenuation values to calculate the liver-spleen ratio. Hepatic steatosis was defined as a liver-spleen ratio of less than 0:9, and its degree was classified as mild (liver-spleen ratio, 0:5-0:9), moderate (0-0:5), or severe (<0). The pattern of steatosis was classified as generalized, lobar, segmental, or focal. RESULTS: In the study potion, hepatic CT values decreased during therapy (p < 0.0001, t test) and increased after therapy (p < 0.0001, paired t test). Twenty-nine patients (43.2%) developed hepatic steatosis within the first 2 years; its degree was mild in 16, moderate in nine, and severe in four. Seventeen patients showed a generalized pattern of steatosis, and the other 12 showed a lobar pattern. Twenty-three of these patients showed an increase in the liver-spleen ratio after therapy to within the normal range, with a mean recovery time of 1.2 years after therapy ended. None progressed to steatohepatitis or cirrhosis. CONCLUSION: Tamoxifen had a statistically significant influence on hepatic fat content and was associated with frequent development of hepatic steatosis. Radiologists should be aware of this phenomenon and the possible occurrence of hepatic dysfunction and should differentiate steatosis from metastasis in postoperative patients with breast cancer.

Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2002 Apr;25(4):247-50. Related Articles, Links


[Toxic hepatitis associated with tamoxifen use. A case report and literature review]

[Article in Spanish]

Lasso De La Vega MC, Zapater P, Such J, Sola-Vera J, Paya A, Horga JF, Perez-Mateo M.

Unidad de Farmacologia Clinica, Hospital General Universitario de Alicante, Spain. lasso_mca@gva.es

Tamoxifen is an antiestrogenic drug that acts by binding to the estrogen receptor. The drug is used as a co-adjuvant treatment in advanced breast cancer expressing the oestrogen-receptor protein. Clinical trials of tamoxifen have shown its efficacy in reducing mortality and recurrence rates over a five-year treatment. Cases of tamoxifen-associated hepatotoxicity have been described, including cholestasis with or without cytolysis and steatohepatitis. We report the case of a female patient who developed hepatic alterations while undergoing continuous tamoxifen treatment. We also present an overview of similar cases published to date and comment on the advisability of continuing or suppressing this treatment in patients with hepatotoxicity or after a five-year treatment period.


J Hepatol. 1995 Jul;23(1):95-7. Related Articles, Links


Tamoxifen-associated steatohepatitis--report of three cases.

Pinto HC, Baptista A, Camilo ME, de Costa EB, Valente A, de Moura MC.

Department of Medicine, University Hospital Santa Maria, Lisbon, Portugal.

The authors describe three cases of tamoxifen-associated steatohepatitis, which resulted from a daily dosage of 20 mg used as the adjuvant treatment of breast carcinoma. Liver tests became normal after discontinuation of tamoxifen.

Of course these women were not also using anabolic steroids....

I agree though, for our purposes, we probably dont use the drugs long enough to see this sort of effect (~14 weeks average), but if you continued to use it during PCT for a total of ~ 18 weeks, stacked with another drug (novaldex) that could potentially cause the same issue for the last 4 weeks, that leaves me a bit uneasy. Just another reason to avoid stane during PCT.

 

[Docd187]

I think you and I were already in agreement pimp-n. I just was explaining why some run their post cycle therapy (pct) that way.

Great minds think alike!