Been asking alot of questions but never posted my latest labs & wanted to share

[totalburnout]

And now your an expert on restart protocols I guess, 2 weeks of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for his situation? It would be useless to follow that recommendation with his history of 175 then 369 and another round of T.

It is very clear to me that you have little or no real world experience on the issues we are discussing in this thread and others, it is just sad that the newbies will think you know what your talking about because of your baseless claims when posting. Have fun pretending.........

That's complete and utter bullshit.

Now you're just peddling crap and worse than a regular pill pushing doctor - assuming that he can't be restarted without any data to support that conclusion. I at least have data of HIS to support my conclusion that a restart MAY be possible.

Treat the problem not the symptoms.

He's started with 175 TT (with a known thyroid issue) went to troches and had 1900 TT, came off that with no PCT that we know of and now has 369 TT and LH and FSH production.

How do you know a restart won't work? Oh you knew at 175 that he couldn't produce testosterone and not that the issue wasn't 100% thyroid related? Really? Did he post labs for that, that I missed? If the answer is no, then you have no business telling the guy a restart won't work.

The goal should be as little drugs as possible. If he lives to 86, does he want to be managing a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocol for the next 40 years unless he absolutely has to? If he's not doing this to bodybuild then lets take the standpoint that he just wants to feel better. There's more than one way to make him feel better.

 

[totalburnout]

Listen its not a bad thing that we disagree, I just don't think someone with little or no experience on the subject should be telling people "369 is perfectly normal for a 38 year old male" and if you are gonna say that, you need to post your experience or peer reviewed literature to back that up..

I agree that disagreements just come with the territory. I'm a strong minded and opinionated individual. I respect that you have a ton of experience. I'm not pretending that 9 out of 10 times, you'll have advice that may be founded on a greater abundance of literature or greater personal experience. I'm disputing that my assessment in this case was viewed as wrong.

The correct answer at this point is that we're both making assumptions. Your assumptions are founded on what you've seen in the past. Mine are founded on what I've seen in the past and what his actual labs are saying at this point.

I was able to uncover a thyroid issue here when no one else looked there, right? Doesn't it make sense to you then, that my head may not be completely up my ass or do you think it was just a lucky guess?

At the end of the day is the T usage going to kill him? No, I don't think that at all. I think we're most all in agreement that restarts are possible and that T isn't going to render you sterile forever. I do think that the longer you suppress your system, the harder it will be to restart. I also do think that less is more. When a fly is buzzing around, you grab the fly swatter first - not the bazooka.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Symptoms:
total energy fatigue
anxiety
depression
eyes & brain focus off (brain fog)
no drive.

These are all classic signs of hypogonadism and adrenal fatigue. Couple questions:

are you having salt or sugar cravings?

do you get tired between 3-5pm?

do you have trouble sleeping?

what is your cholesterol or CRP like?

Everyone needs to keep in mind a blood test is a snapshot of whats going on in the blood stream at one single point in time, it honestly does not tell us that much alone, with out a baseline and multiple points of reference.

Symptoms and android fat accumulation are far better assessments of all forms of hypogonadism, after all in the end it is not the lowT that is bad for your, it is the fat accumulation and decreased metabolic processes that will impact your health negatively. It is not black and white, it is risk vs reward.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I agree that disagreements just come with the territory. I'm a strong minded and opinionated individual. I respect that you have a ton of experience. I'm not pretending that 9 out of 10 times, you'll have advice that may be founded on a greater abundance of literature or greater personal experience. I'm disputing that my assessment in this case was viewed as wrong.

The correct answer at this point is that we're both making assumptions. Your assumptions are founded on what you've seen in the past. Mine are founded on what I've seen in the past and what his actual labs are saying at this point.

I was able to uncover a thyroid issue here when no one else looked there, right? Doesn't it make sense to you then, that my head may not be completely up my ass or do you think it was just a lucky guess?

At the end of the day is the T usage going to kill him? No, I don't think that at all. I think we're most all in agreement that restarts are possible and that T isn't going to render you sterile forever. I do think that the longer you suppress your system, the harder it will be to restart. I also do think that less is more. When a fly is buzzing around, you grab the fly swatter first - not the bazooka.

IMT is the first company to strongly advocate restarts, they have a very nice article on it actually.

If you think T makes you sterile forever, than I can no longer continue this discussion, it would take far too long to get you up to speed and I do not have time for it.

 

[totalburnout]

I understand what you are saying, I would rather not do testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) personally. Last December my total T was 175, it was obviously very low & needed help. Went cold turkey for 1 month & it dropped down to 369 from 1900 & I think I felt like crap from the estrogen, I could never get a test done by any doctor to confirm that. My thyroid was checked in this last blood work & came back in range after being off thyroid meds for 1 month & my endocronologist said it all looks good & I said how can that be? I feel like crap still. Which is why I am trying the test cyp, which has seemed to help my energy levels. I will look into that restart you mentioned. I appreciate all your input here.

The safest route is to try the restart. Research restarts. Print out the data, bring it to your doctor. Let him know why you think a restart would help you. Continue to monitor your blood work. I'm not convinced that your thyroid will hold steady or that your T numbers won't continue to plummet. We also have no data what your E2 looks like - so we'll need that as well.

What drugs are you on currently? How long were you on the thyroid medication before the doctor pulled you off? How many months and/or draws of blood do you have that show your thyroid is staying under control?

If you can't get your doctor to write you a script for additional blood work, look up the coupon codes for lab work on here. Its about $50.

For the time being, if you already started T usage and you have a prescription, stay on it so that at least you start feeling better. While you're on it, devise your plan to try to get off of it.

 

[totalburnout]

IMT is the first company to strongly advocate restarts, they have a very nice article on it actually.

If you think T makes you sterile forever, than I can no longer continue this discussion, it would take far too long to get you up to speed and I do not have time for it.

I said I think we're all in agreement that T WILL NOT render you sterile. However, the longer the exogenous use, the more difficult I believe it can potentially be to restart the HPTA.

When it all boils down to the brass tacks, it's not the end of the world that he's on Test now. I just don't think its ideal but what is done, is done. He can choose to stay on forever or he can choose whether he sees the benefit in possibly being able to restart his system and carry on a natural life.

Any more disagreements we can debate via PM or another thread, so we don't ruin his thread.

Swing - I hope you've gotten some helpful advice and are now aware of a few of the underlying issues and at least three different solutions (TRT, thyroid treatment, restart protocol) to help alleviate your symptoms.

Best of luck in your pursuit of happiness.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

I guess your missing the point, there is just no way you can dish out that kind of advice and your not even on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for a year. I am not going to argue about whether or not 369 is a perfectly normal normal number, cause it is far less than optimal.

Nothing wrong with a restart, but the success of a restart can only be speculated after knowing what the cause is. My point is you are the one jumping the gun sir, and spouting advice with getting the information needed to even speculate.

2 weeks of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for him hunh? lol

 

[totalburnout]

2 weeks of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for him hunh? lol

After using exogenous test? Yes, absolutely. Prime the pump before you start to run your clomid, nolva, and aromasin.

This protocol actually calls for different usage of hCG and was successful for many people on three different forums.
Cashout's Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) Exit Strategy

Is that the end all, be all? No. But it's similar to the restart program that my doctor and I have discussed for when we make the move at the end of the summer.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

Well thats what I mean, are you backing this successful way to do a restart on experience, literature or both? Do you even know where Cashout got the format for his exit strategy?

 

[totalburnout]

Well thats what I mean, are you backing this successful way to do a restart on experience, literature or both? Do you even know where Cashout got the format for his exit strategy?

I'm backing this restart experience on literature. Experience will be in about two months. I'm sure much of the restart came from Dr. Chrisler, Dr. Shippen, his own personal experience, and a number of the other progressive Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) clinics and posters.

The protocol that my doctor and I will ultimately use will be some variant of a Chrisler program.

I'm practicing what I'm preaching and fully intending to attempt a restart before resolving myself to remain on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for the rest of my life.

 

[Megatron28]

At 46 years old and comparing the prospect of managing a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) protocol for the rest of my life vs staying natural? Unless I had explored all other options, I wouldn't head in the testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) direction. *I'll edit this since I read his update that he had a thyroid issue. So there you have it. Low T is a symptom of the underlying problem, not the actual problem.

Did you take that into account or are we just prescribing testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for everyone regardless of what their labs look like, their age, quality of life, etc?

Those labs are FANTASTIC for someone who stopped exogenous test use that had him at 1900.

I believe you don't take hCG - correct Megatron? Look at your own LH and FSH values after using test and not using hCG, those values are usually so low that they're not actually calculated on the bloodwork. That's when you're shut down - when those values aren't calculated - otherwise he's still producing. Make sense?

I didn't prescribe him testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) in my post. A fucking Medical Doctor who got through med school, passed his board exams and examined the guy diagnosed him as hypogonadal.

I think your issue is my use of the term "shut down." I'll grant you that he isn't literally 100% shut down. I was using the term in the more figurative sense. But you must admit that he isn't firing on all cylinders either.

Who pissed in your cup this morning?

 

[totalburnout]

I didn't prescribe him testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) in my post. A fucking Medical Doctor who got through med school, passed his board exams and examined the guy diagnosed him as hypogonadal.

I think your issue is my use of the term "shut down." I'll grant you that he isn't literally 100% shut down. I was using the term in the more figurative sense. But you must admit that he isn't firing on all cylinders either.

Who pissed in your cup this morning?

Listen, we all know that most anyone can get a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) script. Set it up with an online clinic or go to one in person. Is that really going to be the foundation of your argument whether or not testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) was the best course of action? You're one of the FIRST people on here to berate and belittle idiotic doctors. Now, suddenly because they're a doctor and they said something, when its convenient to your argument - you're just going to go along with it?

I agree he's not firing on all cylinders but after about two questions, it was figured out that it was a thyroid issue and not a T issue.

He's not shut down in any sense of the word. I wouldn't be surprised if he continues to decline before he stabilizes, if his test was so high previously, but I'd love for that LH and FSH production naturally - let alone after I suppressed my system for however long he was on the test.

No piss in cup was had this morning or anytime.

Again, I genuinely asked, what do your labs look like for LH and FSH after exogenous use and no hCG? (I'm going on the assumption you're not using hCG because I believe you stated that before).

I'm not angry, I'm just stating things matter of factly and as I see them.

 

[Megatron28]

See, if you jump to the conclusion like most people here, their first step is GET ON TESTOSTEREONE INJECTIONS.

I think that is a pretty strong mischaracterization. Go back and read posts. I and most others commonly tell guys to explore all the other possibilities first like poor sleep, thyroid, varicele, etc. We tell them testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is a life saver IF you need it, but best is not needing it. You might want to consider apologizing the the very community that has tried to help you through you difficult time.

 

[Megatron28]

Listen, we all know that most anyone can get a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) script. Set it up with an online clinic or go to one in person. Is that really going to be the foundation of your argument whether or not testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) was the best course of action? You're one of the FIRST people on here to berate and belittle idiotic doctors. Now, suddenly because they're a doctor and they said something, when its convenient to your argument - you're just going to go along with it?

I agree he's not firing on all cylinders but after about two questions, it was figured out that it was a thyroid issue and not a T issue.

He's not shut down in any sense of the word. I wouldn't be surprised if he continues to decline before he stabilizes, if his test was so high previously, but I'd love for that LH and FSH production naturally - let alone after I suppressed my system for however long he was on the test.

No piss in cup was had this morning or anytime.

Again, I genuinely asked, what do your labs look like for LH and FSH after exogenous use and no hCG? (I'm going on the assumption you're not using hCG because I believe you stated that before).

I'm not angry, I'm just stating things matter of factly and as I see them.

You should already know what lh and fsh look like when taking test and no hcg. We all know that. What's the point of your question?

You do realize that secondary hypogonadism is often characterized as low Total Testosterone coupled with low or normal LH and FSH. His FSH and LH are in the low end of the normal range and his TT was 175 and now 369 -- both of which I characterize as low. Looks like secondary hypogonadism to me. I don't know the cause. Sadly we often don't with secondary hypogonadism. You can speculate and rule some possibilities out; but you often don't know for sure. Looks like his doc got the diagnosis right.

 

[totalburnout]

Again, it's making assumptions for the worst. At 175 TT, we don't have his labs to have any indication what the problem was other than low T.

Now we do have labs that show LH and FSH production AFTER some pretty heavy testosterone usage. You've said it yourself that we all know how those labs usually look. BUT HIS DON'T. That would lead me to believe there's a strong possibility that this thing was completely thyroid related and not related to any gonad issues.

Less is more. Safer course to start with before jumping knee deep. What does it HURT to TRY? Nothing. Whats the benefit if it works? Endless. No need for needles, doctors, insurance, managing a protocol the rest of your life, etc, etc.

Again, at this point, he needs to stay the course with T since he's already broken that barrier. Need to stay on that until he's made a decision to stay on forever or try to go back to natural.

 

[swing22hard]

There was a thyroid related problem, but once that was managed I still felt like crap. In my own doctors words I was marginal hyperthyroid & that should not make me feel like I did. So I got my thyroid to better levels but still had all the symptoms I had been experiencing for 6 months. I was on the trochies unmanaged by another doctor who didn't have a clue to what she was doing which is why it got up to the 1900 level. Last blood work was 369 & very well could have kept dropping but I chose to try the test cyp with a new doctor & the last couple of weeks have been running at about 80% of normal which in my view is amazing since for 6 months I had been running at about 20%. During my time on the trochies there was a 2 week period in the begining of the therapy that I felt 95% then dropped back down to the 20%, it's my theory that I hit my perfect spot for two weeks then blew past it & assuming my estrogen got whacked out the higher I went which made me drop to about 10% of energy but as I stopped the trochies cold turkey during that month there was another 2 week period in between when my T dropped that I felt 95% again but then after 2 weeks dropped back down to feeling shitty again. I had my 2nd test cyp shot yesterday & I feel that I am about 80% right now, which is something I can deal with.

I appreciate all input & it is all food for thought.

 

[Megatron28]

There was a thyroid related problem, but once that was managed I still felt like crap. In my own doctors words I was marginal hyperthyroid & that should not make me feel like I did. So I got my thyroid to better levels but still had all the symptoms I had been experiencing for 6 months. I was on the trochies unmanaged by another doctor who didn't have a clue to what she was doing which is why it got up to the 1900 level. Last blood work was 369 & very well could have kept dropping but I chose to try the test cyp with a new doctor & the last couple of weeks have been running at about 80% of normal which in my view is amazing since for 6 months I had been running at about 20%. During my time on the trochies there was a 2 week period in the begining of the therapy that I felt 95% then dropped back down to the 20%, it's my theory that I hit my perfect spot for two weeks then blew past it & assuming my estrogen got whacked out the higher I went which made me drop to about 10% of energy but as I stopped the trochies cold turkey during that month there was another 2 week period in between when my T dropped that I felt 95% again but then after 2 weeks dropped back down to feeling shitty again. I had my 2nd test cyp shot yesterday & I feel that I am about 80% right now, which is something I can deal with.

I appreciate all input & it is all food for thought.

I am sorry Swing... I know it is your body and only you know how you feel and all, but Burnout is 100% convinced that your issue is entirely due to your past marginal thyroid problems. You need to go back and reassess your situation. If Burnout says its the thyroid, it must be so. You must be mistaken about getting your thyroid issues corrected and not feeling back to 100% at that very moment.

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

There was a thyroid related problem, but once that was managed I still felt like crap

Yup that is usually what happens. Its like trying to save a sinking ship, once you plug one hole, new ones sprout up

 

[THE-DET-OAK]

BTW, when people have a history like his, Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) will need to be implemented for far longer than 2 weeks. 4-6 would be the minimum and up to 3 months depending on TT results during attempted stimulation

The mistake most people make when attempting a restart, is not putting enough emphasis on phase 1, re-sensitizing the leydig cells. This is far more important than the second phase, getting LH and FSH going.

 

[swing22hard]

Here is my thyroid report from my last blood test taken on April 29th

TSH 1.23 (0.50-6.00)

FT4/Free T4 1.17 (0.75-1.54)

FT3/FREE T3 2.80 (2.00-4.90)

Thyroglobulin <20 IU/mL <20

My endocronologist said this is a great report & nothing wrong with my thyroid.