Cycle for someone sensitive to test and possible 5AR2 deficiency

[thegwenethpaltrow]

OK here goes from a dabbler:

I am now 40 years of age, have only injected 2 cycles before averaging 9 weeks each a little over 10 years ago and 3 years ago tried prohormone route on and off over 2 years with some dubious success.

Injectables were first a cycle of deca and primobolan pyramid to taper with pct of tamoxifen: this worked great, huge strength gains and cut amazingly, improved my sporting performance ten fold and joints always felt great, unbelievable recovery from cardio sessions. Loved it so much felt euphoric, absolutely no problems occurred with HPTA shutdown after cycle and pct.

Second cycle a few months later was sustanon and primobolan, bloated and immediate loss of density due to water rentention even after pct with tamoxifen continued to lose strength and gains originally made on deca/primobolan, joints since then always stiff/sore soon after a sporting session.

Prohormones started out with 1-AD and/or methyl-1 ended up aggressively strong but not without a fever and seriously painful deep, green, puss filled fistuallas on chest, stomach and butt for which I ended up in an ER for antibiotics (guess they were the dione versions and not the diol as per the label).
Eventually bit the bullet and tried out 19-nor prohormones which suited me down to the ground (no sides) although strength gains over joint pain improvement were slight in comparison to 1-AD.

Of this year I took into account my hair loss and tried a little under 2 months of a course of finasteride: Disaster! It almost had the chance to completely shut down my HPTA via 5AR2 elimination. (wish I'd spent the money on a set of clippers and shaved my head at that point).
Remembering pct in my dabbling history I threw out the finasteride course and bought in alternating days of anastrozole and tamoxifen meds, suffice to say that libido etc have improved but I definitely sense that 5AR2 levels may not have endogenously improved that much. What will happen when pct meds finish is unpredictable.

I'm a climber by trade and require to be power endurance fit, but also light as possible. Yes climbing in itself is good training but I've always worked out at a gym since I was 20, also an advocate of heavy antagonistic workouts in the gym and cardio to balance against joint injuries from my sport.
However at 40 recovery is now a major problem and keeping weight optimal since the finasteride course is also a problem without enhancements.

Knowing that I dont react well to test and considering my recent HPTA catastrophe. I'm wondering if going on a AS cycle will be folly for me in the not too distant future?
I still have around 20 days of pct meds left and have just completed 20 days of it already.

I would dearly love to get near the condition I was in after my first deca/primo stack. At least close enough to be able to complete some of my last few goals in the climbing arena.
If I was to go on another stack without test in there can anyone recommend a stack/dosages etc without further heavy risk to HPTA? Can I use HCG during the cycle to improve my chances against further HPTA shutdown or should I try it out 'blind' first with my current pct meds to see if it resolves what might still be a possible 5AR2 defficiency, if so what dosages??

Been looking into EQ in a slow solid gain stack/cycle, but looks like asking for more HPTA troubles because of the protracted period for a cycle, minimum 10-12weeks.
Otherwise VAR but dont know how I will react to the oral compound after fiasco with 1-AD mentioned above.

Advice from the wise is welcome!!!!

PS.
height = 178cm
weight = 80.7kg
fat = 24%, water = 50% (inclusive of post finasteride effects = +12%)

 

[Teutonic]

fuck...good post...very comprehensive....
welcome.
I d say full blood panel. Get a total test level...do trt...throw in a lil deca ?

 

[thegwenethpaltrow]

Thanks Teutonic.
Full blood work a little hard to come by here in UK without coughing up the cash motherload for it, (lucky Obama hasnt got all his health care reforms through otherwise you'd be reliant on a system like ours -wait in line/next please/take aspirin) but I suppose that is gonna be an enevitability if after pct I dont feel my HPTA system has recovered....
TRT a possibility but from what I've read it wont push the HPTA to resume normal levels of 5AR2 production, merely masks it and falls (maybe even lower) again once testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) ceases. Will try the Deca idea though to force an HPTA reset.
Hey any dosaging advice on say a shorter Deca cycle with HCG in the cycle or as purely pct, emphasis on minimum effective dosages. Last time I was on a cycle dinosaurs were still alive and pyramiding was all the "rage" never tried the new-fangled front loading approach.

 

[Mcstabberson]

Thanks Teutonic.
Full blood work a little hard to come by here in UK without coughing up the cash motherload for it, (lucky Obama hasnt got all his health care reforms through otherwise you'd be reliant on a system like ours -wait in line/next please/take aspirin) but I suppose that is gonna be an enevitability if after pct I dont feel my HPTA system has recovered....
TRT a possibility but from what I've read it wont push the HPTA to resume normal levels of 5AR2 production, merely masks it and falls (maybe even lower) again once testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) ceases. Will try the Deca idea though to force an HPTA reset.
Hey any dosaging advice on say a shorter Deca cycle with HCG in the cycle or as purely pct, emphasis on minimum effective dosages. Last time I was on a cycle dinosaurs were still alive and pyramiding was all the "rage" never tried the new-fangled front loading approach.

Maybe a shorty of npp?

 

[thegwenethpaltrow]

Mcstabberson can elaborate on npp?
I'm looking at all angles, so nice to know more about this please.....

 

[Mr. Humdiddly]

Mcstabberson can elaborate on npp?
I'm looking at all angles, so nice to know more about this please.....

This originally from BIGANDY69 and I have left it in it's entirety with no alterations.

Nandrolone PhenylPropionate (NPP) Explained
NPP was never really all that popular simply because of availability issues. Many of the pharmacy grade NPP products range between 25mg-50mg/ml and are extremely expensive. Naturally, this limited its use among the bodybuilding crowd. Mexico and the underground did not bother producing it.

The recent increase in popularity of NPP can be attributed to the introduction of BM’s Dubol-100; the first affordable pharmacy grade 100mg/ml NPP. Eventually, more and more Underground Labs started producing the forgotten drug.

PhenylProp vs Decanoate.

Here is some interesting information from Andy13:

“Let's calculate the amount accumulated in the body after 6 weeks of 500mg/deca. Let's say you inject it once a week and we'll give it a 1.5-week half-life. Note that injection frequency makes a huge difference in blood concentration stability but no difference in amount of esterified in the system

E (greek letter "sigma") 500*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) from n=0 to n=6. So after 6 weeks, about 1300mg of esterified nandrolone remain in the body.

Now lets see how long, after the initial injection, it takes to reduce to a small enough amount that permits recovery.

1300*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) After 3 weeks, 325 mg of esterified remain

after 6 weeks, 81 mg of esterified remain.

After 8 weeks, 32mg of esterified remain.”

Nandrolone Decanoate is a long acting depot; it takes quite a while for it to “kick in” and clear out of the system. Depending on how much is used; it will take at least 4-6 weeks after the last shot for Deca to clear out. It also takes about 4 weeks for active blood levels to stabilize. This can easily add up to 8-10 weeks of “dead time” i.e. periods of time when blood levels are not consistent. These numbers apply to reasonable use of Nandrolone Decanoate; between 200-400mg a week. The more you use, the worst it gets. So a 10-week cycle of Deca can easily end up been a 16-week cycle when you account for clearance time (active blood levels). The first 4 weeks are also somewhat of a waste of time.

So that 10-week cycle ends up been 16 weeks; 6 weeks of optimal blood levels and 10 weeks of dead time. Not a very effective way to cycle.

With NPP, you can bypass all that dead time.
19-Nortestosterone based drugs are known to shutdown HPTA very easily - think Trenbolone. Most bodybuilders will use Tren for around 6 weeks at the beginning of a cycle. NPP should be used in a similar manner.

Here’s an example of a balanced cycle consisting of NPP

W1-6: Dbol
W1-6: NPP
W1-8: Test Prop

It is a good idea to run Test 2 weeks past the NPP, however; NPP can be used as a stand-alone.

Earlier, I compared NPP to Tren. They are similar in some ways but Tren is much more androgenic and stronger in general.

NPP shares some of the same sides associated with Deca (they are after all the same base compound). It should be noted that most of the sides that come with Deca are a result of its long ester. Decanoate ester is very hard to control and Nandrolone side effects are not easily countered like Testosterone related sides (Tamoxifen, anastrozole, finasteride…)

Overall, Nandrolone is a milder compound than Testosterone and is better mg for mg (but that’s a matter of opinion)

Nandrolone PhenylProp should be injected at least every 3 days. A typical dose is 350mg-700mg a week for 5-8 weeks.

It stacks very well with Winstrol, Dbol, Test, EQ, Anavar

It does not stack well with Tren and especially Anadrol

Here are some good cycle suggestions:

Fast Acting Classic Test/Deca/Dbol cycle:

W1-6: Dbol 30mg ED
W1-6: NPP 150mg EOD
W1-8: Test Prop 150mg EOD

Highly Anabolic cycles

W1-6: NPP: 200mg E3D
W1-8: Anavar: 30mg ED

W1-6: NPP: 200mg E3D
W1-8: Winny: 50mg ED

A good First cycle:

W1-6: NPP: 150mg E3D
W1-4: Dbol: 25mg ED
(W5-8: Anavar: 30mg ED - optional)

NPP in a typical cycle

W1-10: EQ 400mg a week
W1-9: Test Cyp 600mg a week
W1-8: NPP 200mg E3D
W10-13: Test Prop 150mg EOD

Nandrolone got a very bad rap with many bodybuilders; there is no reason to use Nandrolone Decanoate if NPP available aside from year-round juicer using it for joint pain. Nandrolone is a tremendous bodybuilding drug that can take your physique to a whole different level but many people shy away from it because of what they have heard or experienced with Deca.

BigAndy69

 

[Sobot]

I also utilized finasteride and have entered a vicious cycle now, several years after quitting the drug where i have been loosing testicle size continuously - i have a post about it where colin wrote -.

My estradiol levels are higher than normal and androstanediol-glucuronide is very low (indicating low conversion of T to dht or low 5-ar II activity).

I feel for every single rise of T i get an extreme bout of estrogen rising and more testicular atrophy.

My LH and FSH levels are normal to low normal and i dont really know what would the point of HcG be in helping me but i go by your thinking that my Testicles need the testosterone boost to be converted to dht. But will this HcG bring up testosterone levels or will it convert mostly to aromatase and damage me more?>?

I can only tolerate Aromasin from the Aromatase inhibitor (AI).
I cannot tolerate nolva/clomid they cause headaches. (maybe if i try lower doses i dont know)

I was thinking of toremiphene or doing 6-oxo which is an irreversible aromatase inhibitor and T booster on the other side - but this is said to be just anecdotal don't know if it works for real.

What would you suggest?

Would a mixture of HcG + a serm + aromasin do some improvement in at least retaiing my testicles??

Some suggested i run some steroid and open up the pathway of T to dht and then try the post cycle therapy (pct) route. Wtf we are in a serious mess.

I was hoping that aromasin could work on its own and bring down my high estrogen and increase my T but i tried for 4 days and neither the atrophy stopped nor the nipple sensitivity decreased. Plus some doc told me that Aromatase inhibitor (AI) can drop estrogen levels but this dont mean that they will increase T levels at all, they might or they might not. Thats where the SERM i guess jumps in.

I am in great shits man help me before i loose fertility and testicles all together.

No doctor could be of help till now. Only one managed to tell me to rub T gel on my testicles and take arimidex but even T gel makes me fatigued. I thought of combining it with HcG plus small quantity of T gel plus aromasin as a last resort, but who knows