Evidence behind PCT?

[_Uriel_]

Morning guys

I'm new posting in this forum but I'm a long time reader. I've been bbing on and off for quite a few years and now I've decided to really go serious and take the next step to "boost" my gains in the near future, so I've been spending quite some time doing my homework.

Unfortunately AAS being illegal and "politically incorrect" I'm finding it difficult to get actual solid data on the subject. post cycle therapy (pct) in particular is something over which there seems to be much consensus in the community but that consensus seems based on hearsay and wild assumptions, often from apparently well-informed users but without solid studies to back it up nonetheless.

What I'm getting at is that I'm considering using AASs but there's two problems: I don't know any drug dealers and a full cycle of even just test + post cycle therapy (pct) seams to get a little pricey (and I'm not middle-class american so a few hundred dollars aren't peanuts). So instead I'm considering a PH only cycle, something like DMZ over 4 weeks which is relatively affordable, legal (not being a sheep here, but buying something illegal always means taking some risks not only with the law but also the quality of the product, not to mention the hassle of acquiring it) and people report some pretty good gains on it with minimal side effects.

Obviously I'm aware it'll shut me down but what I'm not solid on is whether a typical SERM-based post cycle therapy (pct) will actually help me recover faster as it seams to me people do it sort of "just in case" and don't have any actual hard evidence that it makes a difference.

So, as someone who knows a little on the subject and couldn't find the information he was looking for, I'm asking if anyone here knows of any hard data that a post cycle therapy (pct) is worth my money.

If you're going to post something like "post cycle therapy (pct) definetly works" or "don't be an idiot" but without anything solid to back it up then please don't bother, I've read plenty of discussions and opinions and I'm not looking for any more anecdotal or circumstantial evidence.

 

[kaname]

Maybe it's just me but by the way you wrote your post it sounds like you already "know" everything. You even went as for as to say "consensus seems based on hearsay and wild assumptions, often from apparently well-informed users but without solid studies to back it up nonetheless."

If you still don't believe in it with all of the well thought out / written post from the well informed users as you say then why waste time posting? A well informed user would obviously be.....well informed. Which would mean they have done their research and have experience in the area.

 

[_Uriel_]

A well informed user would obviously be.....well informed. Which would mean they have done their research and have experience in the area.

Not necessarily. I pointed out "apparently well informed". But how do I know if they really have solid research and experience, or if as I said they're just making wild assumptions based on vaguely-related studies?

For example study X proves clomid improves testosterone production on low testosterone men with some chronic disease. Does this mean taking clomid for post cycle therapy (pct) causes test to bounce back faster? I don't know, the situation is too different! But a lot of people won't hesitate to say "yes" (often out of wishful thinking because without further information it's either jumping to a conclusion or admitting not to know, and some people can't stand admitting they don't know). Hell it's exactly this sort of faulty logic that drives the whole supplement industry!

All I'm asking is, if that research does exist, I'd like to see it.

 

[kaname]

If you look up each substance used in post cycle therapy (pct) you have the research you're looking for. For those of us like me that hate doing the research I rather use the stickies - I don't know where they got their info from but it's clear they know what they are talking about:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/629345-how-serm-s-aromatize-inhibitors-gyno-post cycle therapy (pct)-must-read.html

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/595482-standard-post cycle therapy (pct)s.html

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/618782-more-more-failed-post cycle therapy (pct)s.html

 

[_Uriel_]

I've read them, as well as dozens of others saying basically the same things. Also read threads with ten pages of people bashing someone asking if it's OK to do a cycle without post cycle therapy (pct).

I haven't found any evidence that SERMs actually cause normal HPTA function to be resumed faster after shutdown. Lots of people saying it is so, but not one source to back it up. Most of those people also implying that without post cycle therapy (pct) the HPTA will not recover, which for me just about ruins their credibility.

Since it's been two days and 97 views and I still haven't seen anything to change my mind, I'm gonna go ahead a put a huge question mark over the whole post cycle therapy (pct) thing. I'll keep snooping around but unless someone drops by with a bombshell towards the end of the year I'll probably do a moderate PH/DS cycle without post cycle therapy (pct). If I go through with it I'll drop by and share with people how it went - if I lose my gains then I probably should have done post cycle therapy (pct) and will next time, but if two months or so later I still have all my gains I'll go ahead and scratch post cycle therapy (pct) as placebo.

On a side note, while I don't claim to know if post cycle therapy (pct) works or not I hope me pointing out the lack of evidence gets people thinking the way I did and questioning assumptions without proof, and hopefully the zealots will think twice before bashing someone asking if things really are the way the majority says they are (not pointing fingers here but like I said I've done A LOT of reading on this and I've seen plenty of situations that could have been an excellent opportunity to brainstorm and learn some new things but instead turned into a flame fest and bashing the new guy).

 

[JimiThing]

Google: guay et al clomid
Google: Dr Michael Scally
Id love to discuss the topic. Google the above and then post back.

 

[_Uriel_]

So far I've found this article which proved interesting:

forum.dutchbodybuilding.com/f10/tamoxifen-clomid-literatuuroverzicht-312711/

Several studies consistently showing increased testosterone in hypogonadal men with clomid. Although from what I can tell they don't specify the reason for the hypogonadism, it's a start. I'll keep looking.

Another thing now that I'm on it: can I ask for a place (online) to buy the clomid or is it against the rules?

 

[StanG]

So far I've found this article which proved interesting:

forum.dutchbodybuilding.com/f10/tamoxifen-clomid-literatuuroverzicht-312711/

Several studies consistently showing increased testosterone in hypogonadal men with clomid. Although from what I can tell they don't specify the reason for the hypogonadism, it's a start. I'll keep looking.

Another thing now that I'm on it: can I ask for a place (online) to buy the clomid or is it against the rules?

You can get it from rui bro.

 

[_Uriel_]

Rui?

 

[_Uriel_]

Hi again guys.

As I was reading around I came across some information on ostarine, which is supposed to be exactly what I want: a drug with (admittedly mild) steroid-like effects but without the downsides, mainly the suppression. I've read some reports of people using it alone or for post cycle therapy (pct) without any noticeable suppression. From people using it all by itself I've seen some claims of 6lbs of solid muscle gains in 6 weeks which doesn't sound like much by steroid standards but considering it's (apparently) side-effect free it's really got my interest! And of course it's legal so I can buy it online (which is my biggest obstacle - I simply don't have access to controlled substances otherwise I'd be running straight test by now).

So I was wondering if I could get some opinions on the stuff here. I'm considering either using it either
a) all by itself, some 20-25mg for 4-6 weeks, or
b) as post cycle therapy (pct) for a PH/DS, something like H-Drol 50-75mg for 4-6 weeks followed by Osta at some 10-15mg for 4-6 weeks (to keep my gains, and possibly gain even a bit more, while my HPTA recovers). Since Hdrol is not supposed to aromatize (at least not at moderate dosages) I shouldn't need SERMs or AIs for gyno/bloat prevention and as far as keeping gains the Osta should replace my own test just fine, right?