fat gain from slin over-hyped, or at least somewhat misunderstood

[bronco944]

after seeing how anal people are about getting fat from slin i thought about it. if you are gaining fat from slin it is most likely due to a large excess of cals, not neccessarily fat intake. i see so many people saying take in zero fat. but lets look at it this way. say you take in 10 grams of fat while the slin is active. now lets say for the sake of arguing all 10 grams of that fat are sored by the body. now theres 1000 grams in a kilo right? so if my math is correct, if you shoot slin ed for 100 days and take in 10 grams of fat ed while its active, the fat itself will only account for 1 kilo of stored fat. so after 100 days of takin slin ed the fat you took in is at most responsible for 2.2 pounds of fat. i dont know the biomechanics of this that well but thsts how i looked at it. now what ive been doin for the past 2 weeks or so is eating a large normal meal, regardless of fat, but containing plenty of carbs and protein. after eating i take 10-15 iu's of humalog. no dextrose shake no protein shake. after about a half an hour i start to feel hypo. it got bad a couple times at first but not bad enough to casue alarm. at around 45 minutes the hypo started going away. im guessing thats when the low glycemic carbs i had eatin pre shot were absorbed. the reason i started doin this is because i heard of using slin to induse hypoglycemia, causing a gh release in the body. after 2 + weeks i have actualy gotten slightly leaner (judging by the mirror) but put on 5 pounds. by all logic the fat im taking in should have made me at least maintain my fat levels and msot likely increase it, yet i have seen the opposite. i still get the awesome pumps just like taking it the normal way and im still putting on weight. but even though im taking in around 20-30 grams of fat im not gaining and bf. im not sure exactly why but im guessing its because the amount of cals im taking in is lower than the stansard 10 grams per iu + the 1 hour meal. i doubt its anything to do with a gh release because even with 4 iu's ed of gh it takes a long time to notice results.
let me know what you guys think. im interested in hearing some of the more knowledgable bro's opinions

 

[StoneColdNTO]

Interesting

 

[hhajdo]

Hypoglycemia can cause a GH release, but it can also cause cortisol release & can slightly lower LH/testosterone...

 

[elijah_123]

One reason to get fat with out eating fat

WHile that makes good sense (how can you get fat if you don't eat it on slin) Just because you go hypo does not mean all the carbs you consumed have gone to the muscele. It just means that it has been put somewhere. So if you shot 10 iu and drank 100 gr of carbs it is usually shoved into muscle. But if your muscles were already somewhat saturated insulin could not store it all in muscle, so it stores it as fat. Insulin doesn't just put carbs in glucose, fat in fat, and protein in muscle. It puts everything it can anywhere it can, but prefers the "proper place". So you can easily get fat if you don't track your eatin well with slin.

Let me say it this way. Lets assume somone needs 700 cals post work out to recover. And they use slin, with 100 gr of carbs

100x4=400 Carbs
60x4=240 Pro.
6x10= 60 Fat
---------------
800 Cals.

It is doubtful that any of that fat will be stored as fat, since the body needed it for recovery. That is how you can eat some fat and stay lean on slin. But why push the luck when protein and carbs are much more likely to not cause any fat?

That said it is not hard to stay lean on slin (as you noted) I just finished a 4 week cycle of slin myself and added about 15 lb of muscle, and 2-3 pounds of fat at most. Mainly because I was stupid and got forced into eating some meals I shouldn't while it was active.

 

[bronco944]

Hypoglycemia can cause a GH release, but it can also cause cortisol release & can slightly lower LH/testosterone...

i knew there had to be a downside. now if you were on cycle though the test reduction would not be a problem. the main question i have is is the gh release significant enough to cause any positive effects and would the cortisol release be a problem even while on cycle? dont certain Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) decrease cortisol release?
Elijah, i agree with everything you said and was not trying to say to take slin the way i do. the point i was trying to get across was that fat intake is not the biggest problem, its the total number of cals that make you get fat. most people overdo the number of carbs post shot. If fat gain is a concern, one should work there carb intake down post shot as they get more comfortable with slin, as this would reduce the total number of cals. you obviously dont want to reduce the protein and assuming fat intake is at a minimal carb reduction is the only way to cut calories post injection to prevent gaining fat.

 

[RoadHouse]

I did experiment a bit with the GH release from insulin reduced hypo, and didnt notice much results, maybe because of exactly what Hjado said, but if you run it with anabolics, I wouldnt think lowering of Testerone and raising of cortisol would be thta much of a worry. I cant say that i disbelieve you that eating fat wont cause you gain fat, becuase I have never tried it. But the pharmokinetics of insulin say. Protein to muscle cells, Carbs to replace muscle and liver glycogen, and fat to fat cells. Any excess in carbs and/or portein, and these will also be stored as fat. You may be right, but I for one, and just not going to try it. Now, people shouldnt be so anal about fat intake, that they dont eat oatmeal becuase it has 3g of fat per serving, or chicken, because it has a few g of fat per 4 oz, becuase a few grams of fat really shouldnt make a difference.

 

[elijah_123]

Sorry bronco944 if it seemed I was trying to refute you. I actually agree with you and was trying to add more credence to your statements.

I cant say that i disbelieve you that eating fat wont cause you gain fat, becuase I have never tried it. But the pharmokinetics of insulin say. Protein to muscle cells, Carbs to replace muscle and liver glycogen, and fat to fat cells. Any excess in carbs and/or portein, and these will also be stored as fat

Your correct, it is the excess that is key there. Staying below the excess and you shouldn't gain fat.

Also along the spiking of HGH. DOing 20+ minutes of cardio also release extra hgh into your blood stream, which is a good time to use insulin. My next cycle will include this. I had only been using directly after a work out, but I will be adding a small dose (4-5 iu) after my cardio and see if that makes for a noticable differance.

 

[hhajdo]

i knew there had to be a downside. now if you were on cycle though the test reduction would not be a problem. the main question i have is is the gh release significant enough to cause any positive effects and would the cortisol release be a problem even while on cycle? dont certain Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) decrease cortisol release?
Elijah, i agree with everything you said and was not trying to say to take slin the way i do. the point i was trying to get across was that fat intake is not the biggest problem, its the total number of cals that make you get fat. most people overdo the number of carbs post shot. If fat gain is a concern, one should work there carb intake down post shot as they get more comfortable with slin, as this would reduce the total number of cals. you obviously dont want to reduce the protein and assuming fat intake is at a minimal carb reduction is the only way to cut calories post injection to prevent gaining fat.

Increased cortisol & PRL, and lowered test are not important while on AAS.
Your androgen/cortisol ratio is really high while on...

Is GH release significant enough to cause any positive effects ?

I'm not sure..
Your GH/IGF-1 will be significantly increased while on cycle so I don't know how much will the insulin induced hypoglycemia contribute....
The GH release induced by hypoglycemia is definitely significant, though.


The influence of insulin on circulating ghrelin.

Flanagan DE, Evans ML, Monsod TP, Rife F, Heptulla RA, Tamborlane WV, Sherwin RS.

Section of Endocrinology, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06520, USA.

Ghrelin is a novel peptide that acts on the growth hormone (GH) secretagogue receptor in the pituitary and hypothalamus. It may function as a third physiological regulator of GH secretion, along with GH-releasing hormone and somatostatin. In addition to the action of ghrelin on the GH axis, it appears to have a role in the determination of energy homeostasis. Although feeding suppresses ghrelin production and fasting stimulates ghrelin release, the underlying mechanisms controlling this process remain unclear. The purpose of this study was to test the hypotheses, by use of a stepped hyperinsulinemic eu- hypo- hyperglycemic glucose clamp, that either hyperinsulinemia or hypoglycemia may influence ghrelin production. Having been stable in the period before the clamp, ghrelin levels rapidly fell in response to insulin infusion during euglycemia (baseline ghrelin 207 +/- 12 vs. 169 +/- 10 fmol/ml at t = 30 min, P < 0.001). Ghrelin remained suppressed during subsequent periods of hypoglycemia (mean glucose 53 +/- 2 mg/dl) and hyperglycemia (mean glucose 163 +/- 6 mg/dl).Despite suppression of ghrelin, GH showed a significant rise during hypoglycemia (baseline 4.1 +/- 1.3 vs. 28.2 +/- 3.9 microg/l at t = 120 min, P < 0.001). Our data suggest that insulin may suppress circulating ghrelin independently of glucose, although glucose may have an additional effect. We conclude that the GH response seen during hypoglycemia is not regulated by circulating ghrelin.




Variable plasma growth hormone (GH)-releasing hormone and GH responses to clonidine, L-dopa, and insulin in normal men
P Tapanainen, M Knip, P Lautala and J Leppaluoto
Department of Pediatrics, University of Oulu, Finland.

The effects of synthetic GHRH-(1-44) (1 microgram/kg, iv), clonidine (0.15 mg/m2, orally), L-dopa (0.5 g, orally), and insulin (0.1 IU/kg, iv) on plasma immunoreactive (ir) GHRH and GH levels were determined in normal men, aged 31-46 yr (n = 4-8). In addition, plasma ir-GHRH and GH concentrations were determined before and after the administration of clonidine in six younger men, aged 19-25 yr. GHRH was extracted from plasma using Sep-Pak C18 cartridges and measured with a mid-portion- specific GHRH antiserum. The mean plasma ir-GHRH and GH levels ranged from 9-11 ng/L and 0.5-1.5 microgram/L, respectively, in the older men during a 2-h control study. After GHRH administration, the mean plasma ir-GHRH concentration increased to a peak of 512.5 ng/L at 3 min and GH to a peak of 9.2 micrograms/L at 10 min. Clonidine resulted in a significant increase in mean plasma GH levels (P less than 0.05) in the younger men, but not in the older men. Plasma ir-GHRH concentrations did not change after clonidine. L-Dopa increased plasma ir-GHRH at 60 min (P less than 0.05) and GH at 60-120 min (P less than 0.05). Insulin- induced hypoglycemia increased plasma GH levels (to a mean of 23.8 micrograms/L at 60 min; P less than 0.001), whereas plasma ir-GHRH levels did not change. We conclude that the mechanisms of the various GH stimulation tests differ. Some GH responses, including those induced by insulin, do not appear to be mediated by GHRH.



Exercise can increase your GH more than 10 fold from baseline, but IGFBP-1 goes up also...

 

[RoadHouse]

I see people say, "Well i get fat on slin, and I avoid fat around the shot like the plague." Even though I belive this to be key, they are still missing a key point. Some people think since insulin helps uptake nutrients, this gives them the go ahead to gorge on protein and carbs for 2 hours post shot. I take in maybe 125g in 3 hours after my shot. I usually use 12ius and 75g of malodextrin, and then maybe a half an hour to an hour later, a low glycemic carb source such as oatmeal or whole wheat bread. You cant just go down a 200g carb shake, eat a loaf of bread, and a few cokes. With insulin, you should watch your total calorie count even more, those extra carbs and protein you were eating before are more liklely to be stored as fat if you dont watch it. Diet is 95% of insulin lean gains. By the time people are experienced enough to even hear about insulin, they usually have a decent training program down. When running insulin, I always raise my sets, and do a burn out set or two at the end, to make sure my glycogen is wiped out.

 

[Judo Tom]

i just postes my opinion on this also i think most fat gain on slin comes from the huge amount of carbs people are taking to be safe, not saying people shouldnt be safe but all those extra cals from the carbs have to go somewhere.. i mean slin forces carbs into the muscles but they can only utilize so much and you body can only build a certain amount of muscle even with test/tren/slin so its a trade off i guess