Fertility and TRT?

JOWS6

I am banned!
Hey guys, I'm about to start a protocol with Chip and I am very excited. My doctor wants me to schedule an appointment to have my sperm counted. (I would go with my endocrinologist's protocol but like many of you guys already know, he's not up-to-date with the proper treatment of hypogonadism and his goal is to get me back within range, whether it is on the high, middle or low end.)

I've heard a few people say they were able to have kids on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and I believe RJ was one of them. However, I need something more concrete than that.

My questions are: As long as I'm taking HcG, am I good to go? Should I have my sperm banked jus' in case??

Having a child in the next few years is something very important to me and my girlfriend and I would like to avoid all complications to assure a safe and guaranteed pregnancy.

Thanks,
-James
 
you should def talk to your doctor about that since it can go either way you might be fine or you might end up with a 0 count. That happens to many people while others are just fine while on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). The only way to know is try plus ask your doc
 
. . and if my sperm count decreases to zero during testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), then what?
 
There are a number of studies that indicate that 200 mg of test e a week, after about 3 months of usage, will effectively reduce sperm count to levels that are considered sterile.

Now, in several of the studies, this was indeed the goal. The researchers were assessing the use of test e as a form of male contraception.

What is interesting in these studies is that the effectiveness varied by ethnicity. Asian males were far more inclined to experience a level of sterilization than white males. (90% to 60% after 6 months of the protocol). I think you mention you are Hispanic. I haven't seen any study indications in that regard.

In most test subject, normal sperm levels returned within 6 months after treatment stopped.

I haven't seen any studies on the effect of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) so I cannot comment on that specifically.

Regards.
 
I've heard a few people say they were able to have kids on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and I believe RJ was one of them. However, I need something more concrete than that.

what exactly are you looking for JOWS? Everyone is different so no one can tell you if you will be ok or not.

My FSH and LH were shit and i still had a count of 42 million/ppm. Thats double what normal is (of course I'm particularly badass.:D)

You need to get a spermanalysis done for sure, but that could change after 3-6-9-12 months of HRT. Coul Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) help? Sure. Could it not do shit? You bet. Same with Clomid.

You just have to keep getting checked with regular blood work and go from there. If that means banking some baby batter, then do it. Its expensive, but priorities or just that.

no one here can give you concrete answers to what your endocrine system will do, only speculation based on our experiences.

hope this helps.
 
what exactly are you looking for JOWS? Everyone is different so no one can tell you if you will be ok or not.

My FSH and LH were shit and i still had a count of 42 million/ppm. Thats double what normal is (of course I'm particularly badass.:D)

You need to get a spermanalysis done for sure, but that could change after 3-6-9-12 months of HRT. Coul Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) help? Sure. Could it not do shit? You bet. Same with Clomid.

You just have to keep getting checked with regular blood work and go from there. If that means banking some baby batter, then do it. Its expensive, but priorities or just that.

no one here can give you concrete answers to what your endocrine system will do, only speculation based on our experiences.

hope this helps.


any idea how much?
 
I completely disagree with all the fears associated with testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and infertility. Don't ask me for medical doctrine, didnt look for any. My best friend and mentor has been "ON C*CLE" for 24 STRAIGHT YEARS. No typo, no homo, 24 STAIGHT YEARS. At the height of his competing days (no slouch, Mr. Michigan Heavyweight(OVERALL WINNER) and two years later Mr. Arizona Superheavyweight (CLASS WINNER, along with 25-30 other titles), he knocked up wifey twice in three years. Kids are healthy, perfect. It takes one fucking sperm to find an egg guys. If it's meant to be, it'll happen.
 
you know Chip brings up a good point (to go along with my awesome points).

Just like anything today, especially in the medical industry, people fear what they don't know.

Again, just like i always say, studies mean shit against personal experience. in this game, or any game.

Now go drop loads...
 
any studies on 100-150mg/week?

200 mgs/week seems to be the standard treatment that most have examined in male contraceptive studies.

However, this study used 100mg + a 5-AR inhibitor and LNG to assess the effects on sperm production. Not exactly what you were looking for but it may be a good starting point. Look through the references and see who they cited - may give you what you are looking for.

"Novel Male Hormonal Contraceptive Combinations: The Hormonal and Spermatogenic Effects of Testosterone and Levonorgestrel Combined with a 5-Reductase Inhibitor or Gonadotropin-Releasing
Hormone Antagonist," Kati L. Matthiesson, John K. Amory, Richard Berger, Antony Ugoni, Robert I. McLachlan, and William J. Bremner, The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 90(1):91***8211;97.

Regards.
 
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Yea, I guess you can say that I'm "fearful of the unknown." Jus' scared I'll mess up my chances of having a child.

What I meant by more concrete evidence is actual studies. I don't like to go off from personal stories like, "Yea my friend Alex got his girl pregnant while he was on TRT." For all we know, his girl might of had an affair and that baby isn't actually his!!!!! :)

I'll look into baking my sperm then, thanks for the feedback.

Also, I figure this is the best time to ask this but, in my semen I see jelly-like yellowish clumps mixed in. Is that the actual clumps of sperm?
 
Yea, I guess you can say that I'm "fearful of the unknown." Jus' scared I'll mess up my chances of having a child.

What I meant by more concrete evidence is actual studies. I don't like to go off from personal stories like, "Yea my friend Alex got his girl pregnant while he was on TRT." For all we know, his girl might of had an affair and that baby isn't actually his!!!!! :)

I'll look into baking my sperm then, thanks for the feedback.

Also, I figure this is the best time to ask this but, in my semen I see jelly-like yellowish clumps mixed in. Is that the actual clumps of sperm?

Starting point...use these for some current references. Look thought the citations to see what you might find.

Comparison between testosterone enanthate-induced azoospermia and oligozoospermia in a male contraceptive study. II. Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of once weekly administration of testosterone enanthate -- Anderson and Wu 81 (3): 896 -- Journ

Male hormonal contraception: concept proven, product in sight?

Time course of changes in sperm morphometry and semen variables during testosterone-induced suppression of human spermatogenesis

Investigation of hormonal male contraception in African men: suppression of spermatogenesis by oral desogestrel with depot testosterone

Investigation of hormonal male contraception in African men: suppression of spermatogenesis by oral desogestrel with depot testosterone

Regards.
 
I completely disagree with all the fears associated with testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) and infertility. Don't ask me for medical doctrine, didnt look for any. My best friend and mentor has been "ON C*CLE" for 24 STRAIGHT YEARS. No typo, no homo, 24 STAIGHT YEARS. At the height of his competing days (no slouch, Mr. Michigan Heavyweight(OVERALL WINNER) and two years later Mr. Arizona Superheavyweight (CLASS WINNER, along with 25-30 other titles), he knocked up wifey twice in three years. Kids are healthy, perfect. It takes one fucking sperm to find an egg guys. If it's meant to be, it'll happen.

that means absolutely nothing but the experience one man had, others might not be so lucky. Sure it only takes 1 sperm cell but it must be a pain in the ass for one to make it since we have millions for a reason.

That is why studies are done and one should most def check those studies out and make an informed decision because having kids might just be more important than being on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) before the kids are in the picture.



200 mgs/week seems to be the standard treatment that most have examined in male contraceptive studies.

However, this study used 100mg + a 5-AR inhibitor and LNG to assess the effects on sperm production. Not exactly what you were looking for but it may be a good starting point. Look through the references and see who they cited - may give you what you are looking for.

"Novel Male Hormonal Contraceptive Combinations: The Hormonal and Spermatogenic Effects of Testosterone and Levonorgestrel Combined with a 5-Reductase Inhibitor or Gonadotropin-Releasing
Hormone Antagonist," Kati L. Matthiesson, John K. Amory, Richard Berger, Antony Ugoni, Robert I. McLachlan, and William J. Bremner, The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 90(1):91***8211;97.

Regards.

thank you very much i will look into those


Yea, I guess you can say that I'm "fearful of the unknown." Jus' scared I'll mess up my chances of having a child.

What I meant by more concrete evidence is actual studies. I don't like to go off from personal stories like, "Yea my friend Alex got his girl pregnant while he was on TRT." For all we know, his girl might of had an affair and that baby isn't actually his!!!!! :)

I'll look into baking my sperm then, thanks for the feedback.

Also, I figure this is the best time to ask this but, in my semen I see jelly-like yellowish clumps mixed in. Is that the actual clumps of sperm?

We all are fearful of the unknown no doubt about that, so keep on looking at studies and put things in a balance and make an inform decision.
 
We all are fearful of the unknown no doubt about that, so keep on looking at studies and put things in a balance and make an inform decision.

I found a few studies regarding HcG and fertility in idiopathic hypogonadotrophic Hypogonadism and they seem to have a positive outcome. However, these subjects were given jus' HcG and not on a testosterone protocol.

I'll copy and paste some of the findings later. If you want the full PDF file, PM me your email address.
 
Idiopathic Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism
Predictors of Outcome of Long-Term GnRH


Researchers in Boston, Massachusetts determined that in men with idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) the independent predictors of outcome of long-term gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) therapy are: 1) the presence of some prior pubertal development (positive predictor); 2) a baseline inhibin B (IB) less than 60 pg/ml (negative predictor); and 3) prior cryptorchidism (negative predictor). Notably, anosmia was not an independent predictor of outcome when adjusted for other baseline variables.

"Our conclusions are: 1) pulsatile GnRH therapy in IHH men is very successful in inducing androgen production and spermatogenesis; 2) normalization of the luteinizing hormone (LH)-Leydig cell-testosterone (T) axis is achieved more uniformly than the follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)-Sertoli cell-IB axis during GnRH therapy; and 3) favorable predictors for achieving an adult testicular size and consequently optimizing spermatogenesis are prior history of sexual maturation, a baseline IB greater than 60 pg/ml, and absence of cryptorchidism," wrote Nelly Pitteloud and colleagues ("Predictors of Outcome of Long-Term GnRH Therapy in Men with Idiopathic Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism," The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism)

IHH is a disorder that selectively affects the secretion or function of GnRH (Hoffman and Crowley, 1982). GnRH treatment is successful in inducing virilization and spermatogenesis in most men with IHH. However, a small subset of IHH men fail to reach a normal testicular volume (TV) and produce sperm with this treatment (Ley and Leonard, 1985; Kliesch et al., 1995;Weinstein and Reitz, 1974; Hoffman and Crowley, 1982; Finkel et al., 1985). This subset is, to date, poorly characterized.

The authors sought to determine the efficacy of 2 years of pulsatile GnRH therapy in a cohort of IHH men (in terms of normalization of T secretion, stimulation of testicular growth, and spermatogenesis) and to define the predictors of outcome of long-term GnRH therapy (in terms of TV and sperm count).


Seventy-six IHH men, aged 18 - 55 years (38% with anosmia) undergoing GnRH therapy for 12 - 24 months were recruited from the Reproductive Endocrine Clinic of the Massachusetts General Hospital between 1979 and 1999.

These men were stratified according to the baseline degree of prior pubertal development: absent (group 1, n = 52), partial (group 2, n = 18), or complete (adult onset HH; group 3, n = 6). Cryptorchidism was recorded in 40% of group 1, 5% of group 2, and none in group 3.


Puslatile GnRH therapy was initiated at 5 - 25 ng/kg per pulse sc and titrated to attain normal adult male testosterone (T) levels. The doses of GnRH at the time of T normalization for each patient were significantly higher for group 1 compared with groups 2 and 3. Moreover, for the duration of GnRH therapy, the dose required to maintain T levels in the normal adult range remained significantly higher in those with no prior pubertal development compared with groups 2 and 3.


LH (97%) and T (93%) levels were normalized in the majority of IHH men. Groups 2 and 3 achieved a normal adult testicular size (92%), FSH (96%), IB levels (93%), and sperm in their ejaculate (100%). Group 3 responded faster, normalizing androgen production by two months and completing spermatogenesis by six months. This was attributed to their prior complete puberty and thus primed gonadotropes and testes. In contrast, group 1 failed to normalize TV and IB levels by 24 months, despite normalization of their FSH levels. Similarly, sperm counts of group 1 plateaued well below the normal range, with 18% remaining azoospermic.


"Long-term pulsatile GnRH therapy in this large cohort of IHH men proved effective in stimulating normal gonadotropin and T secretion," wrote the authors. "However, although testicular growth occurred in most IHH men, a significant spectrum of responses was apparent, depending largely on the history of prior pubertal development. Moreover, FSH stimulation of IB production from Sertoli cells and spermatogenesis also differed according to the degree of pubertal development. In addition to a prior history of pubertal development, baseline IB levels greater than 60 pg/ml and absence of cryptorchidism were strong positive predictors of testicular growth on GnRH therapy."



"In conclusion, administration of pulsatile GnRH to IHH men represents a unique human model to investigate male reproductive physiology," wrote Pitteloud et al. "Our large cohort provides a cross-section of pubertal development affording insight into testicular physiology. GnRH therapy was very successful in inducing sexual maturation. Although normalization of LH/Leydig cell/T production was achieved in most IHH men, a limitation in seminiferous tubule growth was encountered in those patients with no prior puberty as evidenced by failure to achieve normal IB levels, sperm count, and testicular size. The cause of this suboptimal response is still unclear but points to the critical neonatal window for normal gonadal development. Our analysis further identifies prior history of sexual maturation, a baseline IB greater than 60 pg/ml, and absence of cryptorchidism as favorable predictors of outcome of GnRH therapy."
 
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Hypogonadotrophic Hypogonadism
Gonadotrophin Therapy Improves Spermatogenesis


Gonadotrophin treatment improves spermatogenesis in men with hypogonadotrophic
hypogonadism (HH), state researchers in Norway.

Low sperm quality is the primary cause of approximately one third of cases of infertility and a contributing factor in an additional 20-30% of these couples (Comhaire et al., 1987). Hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism affects less than one percent of infertile men (Zorn et al., 2005). However, HH is often treatable with gonadotrophin therapy for inducing spermatogenesis (Zitzman and Nieschlag, 2000). Due to the low incidence of gonadotrophin deficiency, even specialized assisted reproductive therapy (ART) centers treat only a few cases (Liu et al., 2009). Data relating to pregnancy outcome in these couples is scarce (Liu et al., 1999; Matsumoto et al., 2009).

Due to the insufficiency of data, Nan B. Oldereid and colleagues performed a retrospective study of men with HH to evaluate the effectiveness of gonadotrophin injections for inducing spermatogenesis ("Spermatogenesis and Fertility Outcome in Male Hypogonadotrophic Hypogonadism," Human Fertility, June 2010;13(2):83-89). "Gonadotrophin therapy is successful for men with HH aiming to initiate or re-establish spermatogenesis," reported Oldereid et al.

From 1995-2005, a total of 17 men with HH underwent gonadotrophin treatment to
stimulate spermatogenesis.

Of the 17 patients, genetic/idiopathic HH (IHH) was the most prevalent (n=10) followed by three cases of post-operative pituitary failure. In genetic/IHH, five of the 10 patients were Middle Eastern. Gonadotrophin injections successfully induced spermatogenesis in 12 of 13 men with HH, as evidenced by the presence of ejaculated motile spermatozoa. All men with confirmed spermatogenesis and a desire to have a child did become fathers, five by ART with intracytoplasmic sperm injection. Gonadotrophin treatments led to the birth of 16 children. Three of these were spontaneously conceived singletons. There were two sets of twins born following ART, who were born preterm. Two infants from two separate dichorionic twin sets were diagnosed with congenital malformations.

"Treatment with gonadotrophins is highly successful for inducing spermatogenesis and obtaining a pregnancy in infertile couples with male HH," stated Oldereid et al. "Despite low sperm output in some of the men, the success rate in assisted reproduction treatment was high," continued the researchers. "We therefore recommend single embryo transfer to avoid twin pregnancies."
 
jesus christ. we got another guy hung up on thinking studies are the answer.

lemme give you a heads up seatbass. For every study you show me that says one thing I'll show you one that says another.

Studies are fine for reference, but real world experience is where you get the best answers. No one can tell you what will happen as I said. What works for you may not work for me. In that sense studies are for shit.

Chip knows his shit, hence being the owner of a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Clinic. But beyond that, that is the reason he posted a REAL WORLD experience and not some study. You may wanna respect that a little more around here. Especially considering you are the ones asking questions.

Cashout was kind enough to offer your studies as well. If you can't make an informed decision based on all thats presented than that is your issue.
 
jesus christ. we got another guy hung up on thinking studies are the answer.

lemme give you a heads up seatbass. For every study you show me that says one thing I'll show you one that says another.

Studies are fine for reference, but real world experience is where you get the best answers. No one can tell you what will happen as I said. What works for you may not work for me. In that sense studies are for shit.

Chip knows his shit, hence being the owner of a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) Clinic. But beyond that, that is the reason he posted a REAL WORLD experience and not some study. You may wanna respect that a little more around here. Especially considering you are the ones asking questions.

Cashout was kind enough to offer your studies as well. If you can't make an informed decision based on all thats presented than that is your issue.

I am not understanding where you are coming from. Isn't this a forum where we are all here to ask questions, use research and gain a more thorough understanding? I am sorry if I am not satisfied with Chip's one experience. By the premise of your post, I guess I should start smoking and disregard research that says smoking leads to cancer because I know of a smokers who are cancer-free.

RJ, if you have nothing useful to contribute then I respectfully ask that you refrain from clicking the "Reply to Thread" button. I am not going to base my decision and risk my chance of becoming a father because you were able to have a child while on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). That would be stupid, and irresponsible of me.

Also, if you were to read the studies, you would see that the study suggested a positive increase in fertility upon using HcG. I just wanted to add that to this discussion.
 
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