~First shredding/ripped Cycle

Muzzybrah

New member
Okay, I know you guys get thumped with this question numerous times a day although I'm going to explain a bit about myself and get into it.

Weight: 88.6kg ( 195.3lbs )
Height: 172cm ( 5ft 8 ) Pretty small..
BF: Around 19-21%

Seshions-
Cardio: 45 mins/ED
Diet: Minimal carbs

I'm thinking of starting my first cycle although I want some advice from people who have PHYSICALLY seen results / taken what they post. I've done allot of research on the web & from people at the gym also.
I'm wanting to shred down, get lean, muscle density and burn those hard regions of fat. ( I know there's no steroid that can be used as a fat burner )


If you've got anything to throw at me for getting absolutely lean & shredded, please do
Thanks
 
Check out the diet section and if you haven't you could always post your diet over there and get feedback.
A lot of individuals would recommend dropping some body fat prior to using steroids, but that's your choice. I would suggest getting it somewhere between 12-15% range.

Steroid use while cutting is more important to me then bulking.
This is due to the preservation of muscle due to AAS.

This is a very broad topic and you haven't posted much about diet or training, other then a lot of cardio and minimal carbs.

I will add that I enjoy Tren wether bulking or cutting as well a steroids that don't aromatize.
 
Okay, I know you guys get thumped with this question numerous times a day although I'm going to explain a bit about myself and get into it.

Weight: 88.6kg ( 195.3lbs )
Height: 172cm ( 5ft 8 ) Pretty small..
BF: Around 19-21%

Seshions-
Cardio: 45 mins/ED
Diet: Minimal carbs

I'm thinking of starting my first cycle although I want some advice from people who have PHYSICALLY seen results / taken what they post. I've done allot of research on the web & from people at the gym also.
I'm wanting to shred down, get lean, muscle density and burn those hard regions of fat. ( I know there's no steroid that can be used as a fat burner )


If you've got anything to throw at me for getting absolutely lean & shredded, please do
Thanks

Brother in all honesty this is not the time to use AAS in a cycle of anyform. You need to work on getting your bf% down, and that means dieting, exercise and a lot of cardio.

It looks like you are on the right track by keeping carbs back so long as you don't go crazy with it ans not properly fuel the workouts you need to make progress.

There are no shortcuts. And you may have problems with estrogen related side affects with a bf% as high as you have right. There is a connection between bf and estrogen.

It is great that you are trying to improve yourself by getting yourself in shape but using steroids right now is not the answer.

Keep up the cardio bro and build up lean body mass to burn even more cals.

Good luck man,

LP
 
First cycle: 12 weeks
1. pre cycle bloodwork for baseline numbers
2. Test E 500/wk
3. HCG 500iu/wk split in 2 doses (subQ injection)
4. AI from day one...start with a low dose and get bloods after 6 weeks or so to make sure your gear is good and your e2 is in check
5. PCT Clomid and Nolva started around 2 weeks after last injection (can use PCT calculator to get more specific as some like to wait longer to start PCT)
Clomid 50/50/50/50 Nolva 40/20/20/20
6. Blood work a few weeks after PCT to see how you're recovering
By far the most important is diet for cutting. You need to stay in a calorie deficit and get enough protein. I'd suggest hiring someone who knows what they are doing like 3J (banner to the right of this page)

Almost forgot, make sure you're old enough and accept the risks
 
First cycle: 12 weeks
1. pre cycle bloodwork for baseline numbers
2. Test E 500/wk
3. HCG 500iu/wk split in 2 doses (subQ injection)
4. AI from day one...start with a low dose and get bloods after 6 weeks or so to make sure your gear is good and your e2 is in check
5. PCT Clomid and Nolva started around 2 weeks after last injection (can use PCT calculator to get more specific as some like to wait longer to start PCT)
Clomid 50/50/50/50 Nolva 40/20/20/20
6. Blood work a few weeks after PCT to see how you're recovering
By far the most important is diet for cutting. You need to stay in a calorie deficit and get enough protein. I'd suggest hiring someone who knows what they are doing like 3J (banner to the right of this page)

Almost forgot, make sure you're old enough and accept the risks
Very informative. Thankyou so much to you and everyone else!
 
You should definitely get your bf down before using any aas. The more fat cells the more aromitase enzymes. Be smart about it.
 
All good advice. Eat clean and hit the cardio and lift heavy. Drop some bf. Maybe going with sarms after u cut down some. Sarms r less harsh than aas and good 4 cutting. Test p, tren a, mast,winny,var and some others r good 4 cutting. If 1st time might wanna go test p and var. stay away from tren 4 a while!
 
Smart thinking. More is not better in this game. It's all about diet, rest, and training. Gear is the icing on the greatest cake that can be baked.
 
All good advice. Eat clean and hit the cardio and lift heavy. Drop some bf. Maybe going with sarms after u cut down some. Sarms r less harsh than aas and good 4 cutting. Test p, tren a, mast,winny,var and some others r good 4 cutting. If 1st time might wanna go test p and var. stay away from tren 4 a while!

Good answer bro.
 
While test only should be your first cycle,I always let people slide if they choose to run var too. I will never recommend it, but if they choose to on their own I won't say no. As long as it is only var and test. I will always say no if they want any other oral with their first run, but var is very mild and I used it on my first cycle.
 
Minimum carbs is not a good idea and useless.....especially for you... With your BF id say your diet wasnt too clean.IMO it would be too big change for your body. Simply dont go too drastic , cuz otherwise your body wont handle it u ll feel like crap and eventually over eat yourself...just focus on protein intake and being in deficit....
 
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While test only should be your first cycle,I always let people slide if they choose to run var too. I will never recommend it, but if they choose to on their own I won't say no. As long as it is only var and test. I will always say no if they want any other oral with their first run, but var is very mild and I used it on my first cycle.

I go a step further. I will give my thoughts on the subject take it or leave it. I could very well be wrong and drop it. If someone who is 18 years old wants to run as a first cycle 1500 mg test e ew with 1000 mg deca durabolin ew and 150 mg of dbol ed. and front load with 1000 mg of test prop, with no pct or AI, and doesn't want to listen to people who know better, let me know how it goes. I feel no need to stop them.

I'm not here to change anyone's mind. And really who the hell knows, Maybe the kid will land a part in the new incredible hulk series, become a billionaire and some day the governor of a state, He may be right.He may be on trt for the rest of his life, but the decision rests on his shoulders.

Just my 2 cents
 
Minimum carbs is not a good idea and useless.....especially for you...

Please don't talk complete shit.

You should always aim to reduce carbs first in a deficit ESPECIALLY if your bf% is high.

The higher your bf%, the more impact insulin has in slowing down fat loss because these individuals are generally more insulin resistant.
So how can you deal with this issue? By lowering your carbs because they create the largest insulin spikes.

Reducing carbs allows you to keep insulin low throughout the day, thereby increasing fat loss efficiency :)
 
Protein and fat slow the digestion of carbs, making the glycemic load of the meal low. You can avoid spiking blood sugar while eating a candy cane just by eating a bit of protein with it or some fats.

And I highly doubt that insulin will have any effect on calories in vs calories out !!
 
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Minimum carbs is not a good idea and useless

^^^^
I repeat: don't talk complete shit.

Dan duchaine, lyle mcdonald as well as other experts have pretty conclusively proven that lowering carbs, rather than the other macros, results in greater fat loss (FAT loss, not WEIGHT loss).

Your body can live quite easily without carbs, which is why it should be the first thing you start reducing.
If you want to lose fat quickly, while maintaining your health, then minimizing carbs is a great idea. Sacrificing the other 2 macros would be plain stupid.

And I highly doubt that insulin will have any effect on calories in vs calories out !!

I couldn't care less about what you "doubt", the fact is that insulin plays a major role in calorie partitioning.
That means it influences where the weight loss is coming from.
Most people notice that when they create a 3500 calorie deficit they NEVER lose exactly 1 pound of fat - insulin, among other hormones, plays a part in this.


Summary:
Minimizing carbs is a fantastic idea and very useful to maximize fat loss
Insulin, whether you "doubt it" or not, plays a factor in how much fat you lose.
:)
 
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^^^^
I repeat: don't talk complete shit.

Dan duchaine, lyle mcdonald as well as other experts have pretty conclusively proven that lowering carbs, rather than the other macros, results in greater fat loss (FAT loss, not WEIGHT loss).

Your body can live quite easily without carbs, which is why it should be the first thing you start reducing.
If you want to lose fat quickly, while maintaining your health, then minimizing carbs is a great idea. Sacrificing the other 2 macros would be plain stupid.



I couldn't care less about what you "doubt", the fact is that insulin plays a major role in calorie partitioning.
That means it influences where the weight loss is coming from.
Most people notice that when they create a 3500 calorie deficit they NEVER lose exactly 1 pound of fat - insulin, among other hormones, plays a part in this.


Summary:
Minimizing carbs is a fantastic idea and very useful to maximize fat loss
Insulin, whether you "doubt it" or not, plays a factor in how much fat you lose.
:)

source: http://www.steroidology.com/forum/diet-forum/659460-primer-dca-iifym-aspiring-dieters.html


"Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Apr;65(4):908-15.
Metabolic and behavioral effects of a high-sucrose diet during weight loss.
Surwit RS, Feinglos MN, McCaskill CC, Clay SL, Babyak MA, Brownlow BS, Plaisted CS, Lin PH.
Source
Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC 27710, USA. surwi001@mc.duke.edu
Abstract
In response to evidence linking obesity and high amounts of dietary fat, the food industry has developed numerous reduced-fat and nonfat food items. These items frequently derive a relatively large percentage of their energy from sugars and the effect of these sugars on weight regulation is not well known. We studied the comparative effects of high- and low-sucrose, low-fat, hypoenergetic diets on a variety of metabolic and behavioral indexes in a 6-wk weight-loss program. Both diets contained approximately 4606 kJ energy/d with 11% of energy as fat, 19% as protein, and 71% as carbohydrate. The high-sucrose diet contained 43% of the total daily energy intake as sucrose; the low-sucrose diet contained 4% of the total daily energy intake as sucrose. Twenty women aged 40.6 +/- 8.2 y (mean +/- SD) with a body mass index (in kg/m2) of 35.93 +/- 4.8 consumed the high-sucrose diet; 22 women aged 40.3 +/- 7.3 y with a body mass index of 34.93 +/- 4.4 consumed the low-sucrose diet. Mixed-design analysis of variance showed a main effect of time (P < 0.01), with both diet groups showing decreases in weight, blood pressure, resting energy expenditure, percentage body fat, free triiodothyronine (FT3), urinary norepinephrine, and plasma lipids. Small but significant interactions were found between group and time in total cholesterol (P = 0.009) and low-density lipoprotein (LDL) (P = 0.01). Both groups showed decreases in depression, hunger, and negative mood, and increases in vigilance and positive mood with time (P < 0.01). Results showed that a high sucrose content in a hypoenergetic, low-fat diet did not adversely affect weight loss, metabolism, plasma lipids, or emotional affect.
Sucrose in weight-loss regimens. [Am J Clin Nutr. 1998]
PMID: 9094871 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

^^^Surwit et. al. performed a study on two groups of hypocaloric dieters (those eating in a calorie deficit). One group, low-Sucrose group, got 4% of total calories from sucrose while another group, high-Sucrose group, got 43% of total calories from sucrose. The results were NO SIGNIFICANT impact on weight or fat loss between high-Sucrose and low-Sucrose groups. So eating 43% of your DAY'S TOTAL CALORIES from TABLE SUGAR is not enough to stop the fat loss in a hypocaloric diet. Both groups felt less hunger, depression, and mood swings. Does any more need to be said?

The Effect of Two Energy-Restricted Diets, a Low-Fructose Diet vs. a Moderate Natural Fructose Diet ***8211; Research Review

Madero M et. al. The effect of two energy-restricted diets, a low-fructose diet versus a moderate natural fructose diet, on weight loss and metabolic syndrome parameters: a randomized controlled trial. Metabolism. 2011 May 27. [Epub ahead of print]

One of the proposed causes of obesity and metabolic syndrome is the excessive intake of products containing added sugars, in particular, fructose. Although the ability of excessive intake of fructose to induce metabolic syndrome is mounting, to date, no study has addressed whether a diet specifically lowering fructose but not total carbohydrates can reduce features of metabolic syndrome. A total of 131 patients were randomized to compare the short-term effects of 2 energy-restricted diets-a low-fructose diet vs a moderate natural fructose diet-on weight loss and metabolic syndrome parameters. Patients were randomized to receive 1500, 1800, or 2000 cal diets according to sex, age, and height. Because natural fructose might be differently absorbed compared with fructose from added sugars, we randomized obese subjects to either a low-fructose diet (<20 g/d) or a moderate-fructose diet with natural fruit supplements (50-70 g/d) and compared the effects of both diets on the primary outcome of weight loss in a 6-week follow-up period. Blood pressure, lipid profile, serum glucose, insulin resistance, uric acid, soluble intercellular adhesion molecule-1, and quality of life scores were included as secondary outcomes. One hundred two (78%) of the 131 participants were women, mean age was 38.8 ± 8.8 years, and the mean body mass index was 32.4 ± 4.5 kg/m(2). Each intervention diet was associated with significant weight loss compared with baseline. Weight loss was higher in the moderate natural fructose group (4.19 ± 0.30 kg) than the low-fructose group (2.83 ± 0.29 kg) (P = .0016). Compared with baseline, each intervention diet was associated with significant improvement in secondary outcomes. Reduction of energy and added fructose intake may represent an important therapeutic target to reduce the frequency of obesity and diabetes. For weight loss achievement, an energy-restricted moderate natural fructose diet was superior to a low-fructose diet.

^^^Madero and colleagues broke down participants in a low-Fructose group (<20g/day) and high-Fructose group (50-70g/day). Patients were randomized to either 1500, 1800, or 2000 calorie diets based on age, sex, weight, etc. This means the high-fructose group had ~12-16% of total calories come from fructose alone, not including other forms of carbs. Results? Weight loss was higher in moderate-Fructose group than low-Fructose group.

Take home point: Don't be scared of carbs. Low carbs does not mean you won't get fat just like high carbs doesn't mean you will get fat. It's about energy balance first and foremost.

Carb Recommendations: Unless you plan on doing a ketogenic diet or prefer low carbs/carb cycling diets, you should try and include at least 100-150g/day of carbs as a bare minimum. It will help keep your intensity up in the gym among other benefits."

First of all I said focus on PROTEIN INTAKE, once u hit that with some fats there is not many calories left to play with carbs. Iam not saying go and pig out on ice cream, all I want to say is that moderate carb intake [100-150g] will be much more easier and NOT LESS EFFECTIVE for him than low to no carb diet !!!
 
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LOL

I'll give you credit for at least trying to find some evidence to back up your points, but the evidence you've found says absolutely NOTHING about low carbs not being more effective fat loss.

All they prove is that IIFYM works: as in the SOURCE of your macros (carb/fat types, etc) doesn't matter - something I agree with anyway & wasn't arguing in the first place.

But in any case, please read and learn as I dissect your evidence :)


source: http://www.steroidology.com/forum/diet-forum/659460-primer-dca-iifym-aspiring-dieters.html

"Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Apr;65(4):908-15.
Metabolic and behavioral effects of a high-sucrose diet during weight loss.
Surwit RS, Feinglos MN, McCaskill CC, Clay SL, Babyak MA, Brownlow BS, Plaisted CS, Lin PH.
Source
Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC 27710, USA.

Both diets contained approximately 4606 kJ energy/d with 11% of energy as fat, 19% as protein, and 71% as carbohydrate.
Sucrose in weight-loss regimens.


[Am J Clin Nutr. 1998]
PMID: 9094871 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


^^^^ The carb intake was the same in both groups: that means this study is completely irrelevant to your point about low carbs not being more effective.



The Effect of Two Energy-Restricted Diets, a Low-Fructose Diet vs. a Moderate Natural Fructose Diet Research Review

Madero M et. al. The effect of two energy-restricted diets, a low-fructose diet versus a moderate natural fructose diet, on weight loss and metabolic syndrome parameters: a randomized controlled trial. Metabolism. 2011 May 27. [Epub ahead of print]


Now I don't blame you for this because the full version of this study isn't available to the public but here is the important point: All the groups in this study had 55% carbs as part of their macros.

Which means it is irrelevant to your argument about low carbs not being more effective - again.


Carb Recommendations: Unless you plan on doing a ketogenic diet or prefer low carbs/carb cycling diets, you should try and include at least 100-150g/day of carbs as a bare minimum. It will help keep your intensity up in the gym among other benefits."

The guy who wrote the IIFYM primer, Dre, happens to be someone I have alot of respect for & have had many good PM conversations when he was here.
However, the recommendations he sets out are clearly just a general outline - something he himself admits when using the keto/low carb diets as an example.

In terms of the many benefits to carbs - if you exclude dietary fiber, then the ONLY benefit of carbs is that they provide energy, that's there only purpose.

In terms of intensity in the gyms, you do not need 100g+, anywhere from 10-25g pre workout will be sufficient to give you energy and a "pump" (if you care about such things).

Otherwise, once in keto your body adapts to using fat for energy by converting into glucose (a process known as Gluconeogenesis).

all I want to say is...that moderate carb intake [100-150g] will be... NOT LESS EFFECTIVE for him than low to no carb diet !!!

You seem to be determined to believe that low carbs are not more effective than reducing the other macros.
So I'm going to address this for the last time, I hope you learn from it:

Low carbs are better for fat loss efficiency because:

Your body has access to fat for energy straight away rather than having use carbs first.

You keep insulin as low as possible for calorie partitioning, which is very important for people at higher bf% like the OP since they tend to be more insulin resistant.

Finally, the fact that your body doesn't really need carbs in the first place, which makes a suitable choice to be eliminated for maximum fat loss efficiency.

:)
 
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