For all you math guys....

[Sedg1]

I have been on TRT for a year and have enjoyed the good health having endocrine system dialed in. After fits and starts, I am on 150mg cyp @ 7 days. My urologist's office will not permit self-injection which is frustrating but tolerable, for the time being.
Just got back my one year blood results: total - 737 (range 190/750 +/-). Considered "high-average," which strikes me as a very defensible range to be in. Just had my first E2 level which was 25.7, which I understand is pretty healthy. No AI meds of any kind. Free was not tested. Strange that the doc did not order that as well and I did not see the blood work order before it went out or I would have requested it. As it was, I had to ask for the E2 test.
So I am curious what my total test would be at peak, which I have read is 48 hours after injection (?). If so, with a half life of 5 days (@ 737), would my peak be approximately twice that (1474 +/- ?) if the consumption is lineal.
Originally I was taking 200mg @14 days. Interesting that the total test, measured after two week interval, was almost exactly the same as 150mg @7 days. Since it was at the beginning, perhaps the boys were still on the job. Bet my peak after two days was big time with a 200mg hit. I saw an endocrinologist (conservative attitude) whose eyes popped when he saw that level after two weeks. He was more interested in the lab numbers than in the patient response.
Tx
S

 

[halfwit]

Sorry man, the math to actually predict what your peak value is doesn't exist. It isn't a linear curve at all and varies from person to person. You are correct though; peak values would be taken approximately 48 hours post injection once you're at steady-state values (been on TRT for at least 6 weeks).

No, your boys are not still on the job - although I am curious why your doctor's office doesn't allow you to inject yourself. Do they force diabetes patients to come in and get their insulin 4x a day?

If I had to guess (assuming your results were at 5 days), I'd bet that your peak is around 1200ng/dL, but that's all it is - a guess.

 

[Daniel_IMT_Staff]

Hello,
I am rather confused at what you are asking. Basically, the way I have understood it. You got your bloods drawn 5 days after your injection(150mg/week) and got a reading of 737ng/dl. So you would assume since a single injection peaks at around 48hours that your reading would be double that. That is incorrect!

A single injection will peak but consider the elimination rate of any drug will be x5 the half life to be considered eliminated(99.5%). So even if a single injection is peaking, you are still metabolizing the previous 4 still.

So in that reading you still have to account for any injections being done in the previous 25 days if you consider a half life for about 5 days for Testosterone Cypionate.

 

[Sedg1]

I am curious why your doctor's office doesn't allow you to inject yourself. Do they force diabetes patients to come in and get their insulin 4x a day?

Don't go there. I already have. A very professional argument on letterhead putting the practice's testosterone administration policy in logistical and regulatory perspective. Ex: do you require patients to come to the office three times daily for their Oxycodone which is a Schedule II drug, while Cypionate is III? I made other cogent pitches all of which fell flat. I came to the inevitable conclusion that bias against testosterone patients, even by the providers who prescribe them, clouds judgment and reason. The public perception of injected testosterone manipulates even medical professionals. Quite pathetic and frustrating for us grown-ups who prefer not to languish in the shadows next to those who do it for the thrill. Time to turn the paradigm around.

 

[Sedg1]

So in that reading you still have to account for any injections being done in the previous 25 days if you consider a half life for about 5 days for Testosterone Cypionate.

Excellent point. I forgot to consider the fact the the body is still metabolizing the previous injections.

 

[riprockwell]

Don't go there. I already have. A very professional argument on letterhead putting the practice's testosterone administration policy in logistical and regulatory perspective. Ex: do you require patients to come to the office three times daily for their Oxycodone which is a Schedule II drug, while Cypionate is III? I made other cogent pitches all of which fell flat. I came to the inevitable conclusion that bias against testosterone patients, even by the providers who prescribe them, clouds judgment and reason. The public perception of injected testosterone manipulates even medical professionals. Quite pathetic and frustrating for us grown-ups who prefer not to languish in the shadows next to those who do it for the thrill. Time to turn the paradigm around.

I agree 100%. At least you have done something about it. It is honestly quite sad that they are making you do that for your treatment. Definitely biased!

 

[Sedg1]

I agree 100%. At least you have done something about it. It is honestly quite sad that they are making you do that for your treatment. Definitely biased!

Of course, if I want to stick some pharmo-shit in my armpit, a goopy, dripping substance that makes TRT a "sharing" and communal experience, putting those close to me at hormonal risk, they will let me do that all by my lonesome.
If medicine is an art and a science, that must me the art part.

 

[halfwit]

Don't go there. I already have. A very professional argument on letterhead putting the practice's testosterone administration policy in logistical and regulatory perspective. Ex: do you require patients to come to the office three times daily for their Oxycodone which is a Schedule II drug, while Cypionate is III? I made other cogent pitches all of which fell flat. I came to the inevitable conclusion that bias against testosterone patients, even by the providers who prescribe them, clouds judgment and reason. The public perception of injected testosterone manipulates even medical professionals. Quite pathetic and frustrating for us grown-ups who prefer not to languish in the shadows next to those who do it for the thrill. Time to turn the paradigm around.

Yes, there is definitely a bias going on. Did you know WOMEN are starting to show up as hypogonadal (low testosterone) too??! I asked about that my last visit and got the look of terror as apparently only women that want to become men are able to inquire about such blasphemous ideas. We can only hope the Baby Boomers bring TRT more into the limelight in the next few years.

I know I'd be shopping for a new doctor's office personally. There's absolutely no reason for a grown man to be forced to make copays/office fees/back-office payments just to have a nurse inject them. The risk is minimal and I can only see doctors doing this out of ignorance or as a means of easy money (most likely).

Of course, if I want to stick some pharmo-shit in my armpit, a goopy, dripping substance that makes TRT a "sharing" and communal experience, putting those close to me at hormonal risk, they will let me do that all by my lonesome.
If medicine is an art and a science, that must me the art part.

Gotta love pharma reps pushing the "latest and greatest" onto patients that are "safe" products. Of course the kick-backs don't hurt every time a damn hormone deodorant stick or nuts in a tube of gel are prescribed. Sorry, I get worked up on this stuff as it no longer seems the patient's well-being is of the utmost importance anymore.

At least you're getting injections on a weekly basis now. I do hope that you're able to take this further and eventually find a solution that fits YOUR needs best. For that, I do wish you the best of luck.

 

[Rosco FleX]

2+2=5

Do I qualify?

 

[Sedg1]

I know I'd be shopping for a new doctor's office personally. There's absolutely no reason for a grown man to be forced to make copays/office fees/back-office payments just to have a nurse inject them. The risk is minimal and I can only see doctors doing this out of ignorance or as a means of easy money (most likely).


At least you're getting injections on a weekly basis now. I do hope that you're able to take this further and eventually find a solution that fits YOUR needs best. For that, I do wish you the best of luck.

Thanks, bro. This has been a real eye-opening experience. I deal with people every day who get scripts for all kinds or narcotics and even methodone and medical marijuana which they can take in the privacy of their own home. That I have to go to the doctor's office for therapeutic care is insulting and defies a medicinal justification. I already self-inject B-12 and a biologic med, so the stick is not an issue.
I did see an endo doc at a practice that permits self-injection for the few who want to. But he would not support my current protocol (150mg @ 7d) because it put me in the mid 700's for total and his target for patients is mid-500's - another example of medicine by numbers. Perhaps with these latest tests which indicate perfect E2, he might be a bit more flexible.
But beyond that, it is not just for me. You do not change the culture or mindset of a medical practice by leaving it. You do it by pulling back the veil.

 

[Sedg1]

2+2=5

Do I qualify?

Only for medical school.

 

[Virginian]

So I am curious what my total test would be at peak, which I have read is 48 hours after injection (?). If so, with a half life of 5 days (@ 737), would my peak be approximately twice that (1474 +/- ?) if the consumption is lineal.

Actually, the FDA lists the half life of test c as about 8 days, which I think is a better number. In addition, it doesn't all get into your system instantly. It takes a few days for all the test to escape from the oil that it is in. I suspect that you peak is no more than 50% higher than your 7-day trough. If the 7-day value is 737, I believe your peak is likely to be in the vicinity of 1100. My lab says that is still in the normal renge - high normal, but still normal.

 

[Sedg1]

If the 7-day value is 737, I believe your peak is likely to be in the vicinity of 1100. My lab says that is still in the normal renge - high normal, but still normal.

Seems like the definition of a "normal" range depends on the test. The parameters for my last test defined (if I remember right) a range of 197 to 750. My reading of 737 was regarded as "high normal." But my first tests a year ago had a normal range of around 300 to 1100, as I recall.