hcg both on cycle and pct.

donkey123

New member
hey guys
would running hcg at 500 ius 2x pw (1000ius pw) on cycle

and then blast hcg at 2500iu eod for 10000ius be too much?

is blasting hcg beneficial at all? i saw a video of rich piana, he recommends it

now and then i read that too much hcg desensitizes the leydig cells, and that i should take it on cycle with a week break halfway through the cycle, and blasting would be an overkill


would love to hear you guys think
 
rich says u can gain in ur pct if u blast hcg, he does it 5000ius eod,
and also i assume blasting it will put me back to level faster
honestly i rather overkill it and be on the safe side
 
Rich does as he's told but knows very little about the subject. HCG is a suppressive compound. It suppresses your HPTA at the level of the pituitary. This is contradictory to the purpose of PCT which is recovery. Also, according to Dr. Crisler, there's no reason to ever go more than 500iu/day or over 350iu per injection. HCG can desensitize the Ledyig cells causing you become primary hypogonadal and it increases intra-testicular E2 which cannot be combated with most AI's. All that's needed is the 250iu 2x/wk during your cycle and you'll keep your testes from becoming atrophied in the first place as well as stimulating P540scc through the LH analog.
 
Rich does as he's told but knows very little about the subject. HCG is a suppressive compound. It suppresses your HPTA at the level of the pituitary. This is contradictory to the purpose of PCT which is recovery. Also, according to Dr. Crisler, there's no reason to ever go more than 500iu/day or over 350iu per injection. HCG can desensitize the Ledyig cells causing you become primary hypogonadal and it increases intra-testicular E2 which cannot be combated with most AI's. All that's needed is the 250iu 2x/wk during your cycle and you'll keep your testes from becoming atrophied in the first place as well as stimulating P540scc through the LH analog.

DreDay-

So no more than 350iu per injection? If I was going to do a 10 day blast of 500iu/day leading up to four days before PCT, would you recommend halving that dosage and doing two injections, am/PM (each 250iu)?

I'm planning on 500iu HCG per week (via two injections) over 12 weeks (w/a 500mg/week test e cycle), and following up with the blast I mentioned above.

Thanks!
 
DreDay-

So no more than 350iu per injection? If I was going to do a 10 day blast of 500iu/day leading up to four days before PCT, would you recommend halving that dosage and doing two injections, am/PM (each 250iu)?

I'm planning on 500iu HCG per week (via two injections) over 12 weeks (w/a 500mg/week test e cycle), and following up with the blast I mentioned above.

Thanks!

I really don't see the need if you're running it on cycle. I would just stick to the 500iu (250 twice weekly) as you plan on doing on cycle.
 
I really don't see the need if you're running it on cycle. I would just stick to the 500iu (250 twice weekly) as you plan on doing on cycle.

I run HCG 500iu's a week while on and do a blast, 2,000iu's eod for 10,000iu's. Excessive? Maybe, but it's nice to get the boys back online ASAP.

And just cause you run HCG on cycle doesn't mean you aren't still alittle shutdown, HCG helps, but not all the way. If it did, why wouldn't people running multiple year long cycles be able to recover the same as if they'd just ran a 12 weeker?
 
I run HCG 500iu's a week while on and do a blast, 2,000iu's eod for 10,000iu's. Excessive? Maybe, but it's nice to get the boys back online ASAP.

IMO, and that of Dr. Crisler the blast portion is excessive. Those doses are typically what will desensitize Ledyig cells although you're not blasting long enough to do the damage after one run. Is the damage caused additive, I don't know for sure, but I for one won't be risking it.

There's only so much stimulation that can occur with any amount of HCG used so claiming it gets the boys back online ASAP is erroneous. That's why Dr. Crisler recommends doses no more ban 500iu in any single day, there is no added benefit. What you experience is either nothing or placebo unfortunately.

From the man himself:

Dr. Crisler said:
It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/HCGupdate.doc

And just cause you run HCG on cycle doesn't mean you aren't still alittle shutdown, HCG helps, but not all the way. If it did, why wouldn't people running multiple year long cycles be able to recover the same as if they'd just ran a 12 weeker?

HCG is a suppressive compound by nature, it suppresses the pituitary production of LH. I never said it's use prevents shutdown.

If HCG doesn't help all the way why are you using it so excessively? Your example is not a logical one. You're basing it on the fact that HCG helps sustain or recover endogenous test production (among it's other uses) but you neglect the fact that prolonged use of it can lead to primary hypogonadism...one of the conditions you're trying to prevent. Furthermore, chronic supra physiological hormone levels are deterimental to many health markers. Running year long cycles won't matter much if you die from polycythemia (blood clotting due to elevated HCT), have dangerously high BP levels, your lipids get so out of whack that it leads to heart disease, you damage your liver to the point it's useless, etc.
 
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IMO, and that of Dr. Crisler the blast portion is excessive. Those doses are typically what will desensitize Ledyig cells although you're not blasting long enough to do the damage after one run. Is the damage caused additive, I don't know for sure, but I for one won't be risking it.

There's only so much stimulation that can occur with any amount of HCG used so claiming it gets the boys back online ASAP is erroneous. That's why Dr. Crisler recommends doses no more ban 500iu in any single day, there is no added benefit. What you experience is either nothing or placebo unfortunately.

From the man himself:



http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/HCGupdate.doc



HCG is a suppressive compound by nature, it suppresses the pituitary production of LH. I never said it's use prevents shutdown.

If HCG doesn't help all the way why are you using it so excessively? Your example is not a logical one. You're basing it on the fact that HCG helps sustain or recover endogenous test production (among it's other uses) but you neglect the fact that prolonged use of it can lead to primary hypogonadism...one of the conditions you're trying to prevent. Furthermore, chronic supra physiological hormone levels are deterimental to many health markers. Running year long cycles won't matter much if you die from polycythemia (blood clotting due to elevated HCT), have dangerously high BP levels, your lipids get so out of whack that it leads to heart disease, you damage your liver to the point it's useless, etc.


hey dre

thanks for the response.
Rich also brought up that during cycle taking HCG is counter productive, as the natural test is being shut down while the hcg is signalling it turn on, the 2 message contradicts for theres no need for hcg on cycle,

what are your thoughts on this? i think its interesting but Rich is good at spewing bro science
 
hey dre

thanks for the response.
Rich also brought up that during cycle taking HCG is counter productive, as the natural test is being shut down while the hcg is signalling it turn on, the 2 message contradicts for theres no need for hcg on cycle,

what are your thoughts on this? i think its interesting but Rich is good at spewing bro science

He is right in a way but the 'contradiction' as he calls it happens at different levels and the benefits are well worth the consequences.

The HPTA senses an increase in hormone test levels or an increase on estrogen and will limit natural production to varying degrees. This happens at the hypothalamus. By using HCG you skip forward and go straight to the testes since it's an LH analog. It suppresses at the pituitary but acts on the testes (among other places).

By using HCG you'll be able to maintain testicular size and responsiveness to LH. You also get the benefit of stimulating P450scc which involves natural hormone production, it helps adrenal function, and other things. Wouldn't you agree it's worth this 'contradiction'?

William Llewellyn said:
Bodybuilders and athletes may also administer Human Chorionic Gonadotropin throughout a steroid cycle, in an effort to avoid testicular atrophy and the resulting reduced ability to respond to LH stimulus. In effect, this practice is used to avoid the problem of testicular atrophy, instead of trying to correct it later on when the cycle is over. It is important to remember that the dosage needs to be carefully monitored with this type of use, as high levels of hCG may cause increased testicular aromatase expression (raising estrogen levels),771 and also desensitize the testes to LH.772 As such, the drug may actually induce primary hypogonadism when misused, greatly prolonging, not improving, the recovery window. Current protocols for the use of hCG in this manner involve administering 250 IU subcutaneously every 3rd or 4th day throughout the length of the steroid cycle. Higher doses may be necessary for some individuals, but st no point should exceed 500 IU per injection.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. ***8220;Anabolics.***8221; iBooks.
 
IMO, and that of Dr. Crisler the blast portion is excessive. Those doses are typically what will desensitize Ledyig cells although you're not blasting long enough to do the damage after one run. Is the damage caused additive, I don't know for sure, but I for one won't be risking it.

There's only so much stimulation that can occur with any amount of HCG used so claiming it gets the boys back online ASAP is erroneous. That's why Dr. Crisler recommends doses no more ban 500iu in any single day, there is no added benefit. What you experience is either nothing or placebo unfortunately.

From the man himself:



http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/HCGupdate.doc



HCG is a suppressive compound by nature, it suppresses the pituitary production of LH. I never said it's use prevents shutdown.

If HCG doesn't help all the way why are you using it so excessively? Your example is not a logical one. You're basing it on the fact that HCG helps sustain or recover endogenous test production (among it's other uses) but you neglect the fact that prolonged use of it can lead to primary hypogonadism...one of the conditions you're trying to prevent. Furthermore, chronic supra physiological hormone levels are deterimental to many health markers. Running year long cycles won't matter much if you die from polycythemia (blood clotting due to elevated HCT), have dangerously high BP levels, your lipids get so out of whack that it leads to heart disease, you damage your liver to the point it's useless, etc.

I'm not saying Dr. Crisler is right or wrong, nor am I saying I'm necessarily right, nor any other doctor for that matter. In terms of recovery of one's endocrine system I don't think there is much that could be considered an exact science. If Dr. Crisler says that 500iu's is all the body can handle at once, fine, but I would disagree and so would Dr. Scally and his PCT protocol that has helped a lot of people recover. Again, I'm not saying anyone is 100% right, because honestly there are parts of Dr. Scally's protocol that I disagree with, but if something works, I'm going to go with it.

I understand that the leydig cells can only take so much stimulation and that there is a chance of overstimulation and thus actually damaging the sensitivity of the leydig cells. However, I do not believe that 2,000iu's Used five times over a span of ten days is enough hcg at one time to do damage, nor is 10 days a long enough span of time for the damage to occur, this isn't just my personal opinion, there are many HRT doctors that prescribe such a protocol with success(and thus we can assume that little to no desensitization has occurred) and there are studies to back it up.

I do not agree that a blast is completely unnecessary and useless, but if you wanted to argue that a blast unnecessary/excessive when a person has already been running hcg on cycle, then at least some of the time I would agree. For me personal, I'd disagree, but that's only because, even at 600iu's a week on cycle, I still experience some atrophy, although minimal. So, a blast, and I'll maybe go along with the idea that my version of a blast is excessive, but some sort of blast is still necessary for me to get my testes back to as full as HCG will get them. As you know though, unfortunately, hcg only stimulates LH and not FSH, so I don't believe, at least hypothetically, that our testes ever go back to truly full size till they are running naturally...and I'm not ready to even try to jump on the Triptorelin train.

Also, the OP's post was about hcg. Yes, I brought up long cycles, but that was in reference to the usefulness of hcg on cycle. I am/was in no way suggesting long cycles to anyone. I understand the risks I take by running the cycles I choose to run, but to say that by doing so I will automatically have dangerously high blood pressure, will die of elevated hemocrit, have trashed lipids and a useless liver...that might be alittle over the top. I get my bloodwork done ever 3-4 weeks, i can assure you I take all the precautions and am in excellent health.

Side note, I do appreciate good intellectual conversation like this and challenging each others ideas!:)
 
rich says u can gain in ur pct if u blast hcg, he does it 5000ius eod,
and also i assume blasting it will put me back to level faster
honestly i rather overkill it and be on the safe side

DO NOT RUN HCG DURING PCT

Run it during the last week of your cycle 1000iu eod, and again the following week... then wait two weeks to begin clomid/nolva
 
DO NOT RUN HCG DURING PCT

Run it during the last week of your cycle 1000iu eod, and again the following week... then wait two weeks to begin clomid/nolva

should i run it during the last week of the cycle, or run hcg after the cycle, when wait another 2 days then clomid/nolva?
 
DO NOT RUN HCG DURING PCT

Run it during the last week of your cycle 1000iu eod, and again the following week... then wait two weeks to begin clomid/nolva

China, what your reasoning behind waiting two weeks after your blast before beginning pct when HCG has a half life of about three days? Why not just wait four maybe five days?
 
China, what your reasoning behind waiting two weeks after your blast before beginning pct when HCG has a half life of about three days? Why not just wait four maybe five days?

my reasoning is just to start PCT 3 weeks after last injection... clomid/nolva are much more effective run at this timeframe

as for the HCG, running it for two weeks will be sufficient, but could run it one more week if u really want to... then wait a week til starting the clomid/nolva
 
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