How do I not waste so much of what is in the syringe?

[cybrsage]

I backfill insulin syringes with my test and shoot with the insulin needle/syringe combo. After I am done filling the syringe, I pull back on the plunger of my drawing syringe, bringing in air and the rest of the test. When I look, it is an insignificant amount - will barely register at all. I do hold the syringe needle down and tap the test into the bottom, then push it into the insulin syringe. Waste not, want not - but even if I did not do that, the waste is barely noticeable.

I draw with 25g BD needles. Your problem could be as simple as you are drawing with a harpoon. A needle that large can damage the membrane on the test bottle (I used to use that size and it did just that once). I know doctor's say to use it, but they are wrong so many times wrt TRT. Just get some 23 or 25g needles to draw with and you will greatly reduce your waste.

 

[Billegitimate]

Get the .5 ml 1 piece tuberculin syringes. They come in packs of 25 and are not individually wrapped. Zero loss. If you need a part number let me know.

 

[WasHousebound]

This thread is almost funny; all opinions and no measurements.

On my regular schedule, I did my injection just now, as described above. I chose to use a bubble and only draw what appeared to be 0.15ml. Bottle was sitting on the desk, drew testosterone, and what do you know? Immediately exactly 0.1ml air bubble on top before I did a thing.

Pulled the 18G needle from the bottle, turned the needle upright to suck the T from the needle to the syringe, tapped out the air for the sake of measurement just for this thread and found exactly 0.25ml fluid in the syringe (pulled back to 0.35ml and looked through the syringe, in this case I could see fluid up to 0.10ml, which means exactly 0.25ml was in the syringe), swapped needles, flipped it over again and let the 0.1ml bubble raise to the plunger (this actually took a couple tries to get accurate, perhaps 0.12ml could be a better bubble size due to air compression), squeezed to the measurement of 0.25ml - which let two drops come out (so the liquid appeared to be at 0.15ml with 0.10ml air at the plunger), slowly injected into my quad (sterilized first). Pulled needle and put the cap back on. Noted two drops still in the cap, drew and plunged air a few times, to make sure of how much waste there was in the needle or syringe: none. How much air did I inject into my muscle? None, though I can't prove it - though I did prove it last night with water and a bowl (shotglass or spoon would be more accurate).

So, either BD Slip Tip is much more wasteful than other kits with removable needles, or (as it took me over a year to notice) everyone on the same protocol as me with the same kit is truly wasting 28.75% of their testosterone.

I keep hearing opinions, why doesn't someone take the time to actually do the measurement and verify or disprove my assertion. This proof would stand the rigors of college physics.

Megatron, Chiefy, Cybrsage, Billegitimate, or someone: do this rigorous test (just tap water and a spoon will suffice, wasting a syringe and needle) to prove how much you are actually wasting.

As always, such things get blown out of proportion with opinions. Please use proof. Of course this is completely irrelevant if your supply of testosterone is not limited. Maybe I'll switch to one-piece, since the wastage is less (but not possible to be exactly zero without an air bubble). I really hope the next reply is someone who actually does the proof and measurement.

 

[Mprtz]

Sorry, don't need to measure - none of the 3cc luer lock, 1cc luer lock or various brands of insulin syringes I have used have left any appreciable product after injection. I'd be looking for another product if they did.

Sounds to me like the slip tip is just a bad design.

 

[cybrsage]

Agreed, I have actually pulled the plunger back after injecting the test into the back of an insulin syringe (back loading) and found almost nothing there...as is a few droplets. I am using a BD 25g 1in needle on a 3ml syringe to draw.

I have then added that small amount into the insulin syringe and checked the level - it did not move. That is on a 29g 1/2in needle and a 1ml syrnge.

I saw a post a while back where someone had the exact same issue of waste, which is why I know how much I am wasting. I was using the same 18g 1 inch BD needles and the waste was terrible. If you change from 18g to 25g to draw (and reduce the size to only 1 inch), you will see your waste vanish. Trust me, I did that very thing.

EDIT: The BD needles are twist lock designs. This is what my bod and the needles look like. When they run out, I will get the same gauge in the smallest length I can find, which is B-D Part Number: 305122 25 G x 5/8 in. And then instead of back loading insulin syringes, I will just by 305109 27 G x 1/2 in. needles for my barrels.

 

[Chiefy]

Relax man, nobody is attacking you here.

I just did an experiment to see how much loss was occuring with my syringes. I sometimes use Exel Int 1ml Luer lock syringes with a 1" 25g needle. Other times I use one-piece Easy Touch 1ml insulin syringes with a 5/8" 30g needle.

I first used the Luer Lock needle for the experiment because that's closer to what you're using.

Using an air bubble behind the liquid, I pushed the water through the needle. When I inverted the syringe to draw back the amount of liquid stuck in the needle hub, I measured .02ml, which is an acceptable loss for me and is pretty insignificant.

I've read that each 10ml vial contains a small amount of extra product to account for small losses during injection. Not sure how much, or if this is standard practice with all manufacturers, but I've seen other posters comment that this is the case. Hopefully somebody else can chime in on this with accurate information.

I then repeated the experiment with a one-piece insulin needle, but used no air bubble. After drawing back the plunger, there was no measurable liquid remaining in the syringe. If you don't want to lose any medication, the one-piece syringes will solve this problem.

 

[Megatron28]

When I am done injecting, I always pull the plunger all the way back and then expell what is left in the syringe into my sink. I am always curious to see if I had a good injection and got it all out or not. Most times there is just a drop or two left. Sometimes hardly anything comes out.

So I do measure!!!!

 

[WasHousebound]

"Sorry, don't need to measure" got two likes. That's funny; I didn't know people were using faith-based medicine on here. For those that say they are only wasting a drop or two (and maybe that is true with the gear you use) please verify it by this:
After you pull your draw needle from the bottle, draw air so zero waste is in the needle (18G, 25G - does not matter, you empty it), then after you inject and are about to throw away your gear, draw air again, get all the drops to coalesce, pull back to an even number, and see how much is actually being wasted (by looking through the syringe - it is hard to verify otherwise). I have a hard time believing only slip tip wastes 0.1ml exactly, and all others waste a drop or two. I didn't realize just how much was wasted until I measured carefully.

I waited until after my next scheduled injection to reply, to see if anyone else would post real measurements. (Also, I wanted to see if using an air bubble caused a charlie horse or anything, it didn't) That absolutely nobody wastes more than a drop or two with other kits, while BD Slip Tip 309659 wastes a full 0.1ml precisely, is hard to believe (I don't have faith, measurements please). Does anyone else use the same kit I do? Please duplicate or refute my findings. I have only one model, so I can't run a comparison to other models.

This morning's injection was only a couple extra steps than usual, I did not inject any air into my leg, nor did I waste more than a drop or two! How? By drawing up only 0.15ml (by appearances), pulling the needle from the bottle and drawing air and tapping (to completely eliminate waste) and looking through the syringe: exactly 0.25ml was in the syringe. Swapped needles, and pushed plunger to 0.35-0.36ml. Flipped needle, waited for air bubble (measuring 0.10-0.11ml) to float to the plunger (tapped to get air perfectly at plunger and no air in liquid), pushed to 0.25ml line (and/or one drop coming out the needle) and injected it into a leg muscle. [yeah, I pushed the needle 'hard' at the end to be sure that wasn't causing waste, it wasn't] Zero air went into muscle. Removed from leg, and before tossing everything into a sharps container, and anally measured my waste for this crazy thread: a drop or two.

So for my kit (part numbers already mentioned), knowing that there's exactly 0.10ml of waste in the slip tip design, I utilized an air bubble of equal to just barely greater volume than the waste would be. 0.1 minus 0.1 equals zero, but since air compresses more than liquid (like air in your brake lines) ~0.11ml air left the last drop not injected.

Please post real measurements, if anyone uses the same kit I do or their kit also wastes more than a couple drops (real math)

Also, please discard all waste in the sharps container, not into sink or garbage.
health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/drugs-in-the-water
"It.s been calculated, for example, that one man.s use of testosterone cream can wind up putting as much of the hormone into the water as the natural excretions from 300 men."

 

[Chiefy]

I did the experiment. I posted the results in post #26.

In summary, I measured .02ml loss when using a 25g needle, and no loss from a one-piece insulin syringe.

 

[Mprtz]

Sorry I came off as dismissive - normally I'm all about being scientific. In another thread I calculated the volume of the inside of a 25gauge 1.5" needle in the context of injection waste (it is negligible).

It's just that I pay close attention to such things, so I know without specifically measuring that the product left over in my syringes is nowhere near 0.1mL.

Regardless, I went through my sharps bin and checked a few syringes - I can see a little oily residue but nothing I could remotely measure.

Here's a thought: most syringes have a conical plunger tip that matches the conical area at the end of the barrel. If you are reading a partly empty syringe by looking at the fluid level marks you will not get an accurate reading, because the marks take into account the extra volume at the end of the barrel which is canceled out by the conical plunger tip. The smaller the amount you are attempting to measure this way, the larger the error percentage.

 

[WasHousebound]

Weird Science!

This thread has become very weird, so let's make it a chemistry test. Either BD Tuberculin Slip Tip 1ML Syringe 309659 is the worst product ever made (wasting over 5 times as much as Chiefy's "Exel Int 1ml Luer lock syringes"), or you guys are wasting more than you realize because it is hard to quantify all waste.

Materials:
two clean bowls or shot glasses
three brand new syringes (I have plenty to waste)
18G needle(s) (I have none to waste, so reused one, and emptied it as best I could between tests)
Oil of similar viscosity as testosterone prescription in oil (having only olive oil on hand, I chose to microwave it 30 seconds to thin it out)

Method:
Repeated three times, and compared results. Within a margin of error, the following is verified:
1. Draw 0.25ml correctly from one bowl and squirt into the empty bowl
2. Turn syringe upright, draw air and tap repeatedly until all oil is at the plunger (be patient, as all surfaces are coated in oil)
3. Bring plunger to an even number, such as 0.4ml, and note the level of the oil, which I assert will be (near) 0.30ml. The difference being the amount wasted, which I assert will be 0.10ml (a bit less due to test limitations)
4. Squirt the waste olive oil into the trash
5. Draw up the oil squirted into the second bowl, tap and draw until it coalesces at the plunger
6. Bring plunger to an even number, such as 0.4ml, and note the level of the oil, which I assert will be 0.15ml. The difference (0.25ml) is the amount 'injected' into the second bowl. (amount observed is less due to higher viscosity and oil coating every surface, waiting longer, warmer conditions, warmer liquid increases amount observed)

Conclusion:
I just did this three times, wiping out second bowl each time, and the results are consistent with real world tests with my testosterone prescription:
Waste: 0.1ml (observed olive oil .06-.09, depending on temperature and accuracy of method, oil coats all surfaces)
Injection: 0.25ml (observed olive oil .20-.23, same reasons as above)
(the thinner your oil and more accurate your methods, the closer it will be to the full amount)

That's really simple science. I'm absolutely certain. It means I was wasting ~28% of my prescription. Chemistry lab class experience is not necessary to repeat this test. Will someone with BD 309659 syringes please verify this, and then test something more efficient such as an insulin one-piece as well? For that matter, anyone who finds they are wasting at least half as much, please post. If you see a flaw in my lab methods, please tell me!

View attachment 560274

 

[Megatron28]

This thread has become very weird, so let's make it a physics test. Either BD Tuberculin Slip Tip 1ML Syringe 309659 is the worst product ever made (wasting over 5 times as much as Chiefy's "Exel Int 1ml Luer lock syringes"), or you guys are wasting more than you realize because it is hard to quantify all waste.

Materials:
two clean bowls or shot glasses
three brand new syringes (I have plenty to waste)
18G needle(s) (I have none to waste, so reused one, and emptied it as best I could between tests)
Oil of similar viscosity as testosterone prescription in oil (having only olive oil on hand, I chose to microwave it 30 seconds to thin it out)

Method:
Repeated three times, and compared results. Within a margin of error, the following is verified:
1. Draw 0.25ml correctly from one bowl and squirt into the empty bowl
2. Turn syringe upright, draw air and tap repeatedly until all oil is at the plunger (be patient, as all surfaces are coated in oil)
3. Bring plunger to an even number, such as 0.4ml, and note the level of the oil, which I assert will be (near) 0.30ml. The difference being the amount wasted, which I assert will be 0.10ml (a bit less due to test limitations)
4. Squirt the waste olive oil into the trash
5. Draw up the oil squirted into the second bowl, tap and draw until it coalesces at the plunger
6. Bring plunger to an even number, such as 0.4ml, and note the level of the oil, which I assert will be 0.15ml. The difference (0.25ml) is the amount 'injected' into the second bowl. (amount observed is less due to higher viscosity and oil coating every surface, waiting longer, warmer conditions, warmer liquid increases amount observed)

Conclusion:
I just did this three times, wiping out second bowl each time, and the results are consistent with real world tests with my testosterone prescription:
Waste: 0.1ml (observed olive oil .06-.09, depending on temperature and accuracy of method, oil coats all surfaces)
Injection: 0.25ml (observed olive oil .20-.23, same reasons as above)
(the thinner your oil and more accurate your methods, the closer it will be to the full amount)

That's really simple science. I'm absolutely certain. It means I was wasting ~28% of my prescription. Chemistry lab class experience is not necessary to repeat this test. Will someone with BD 309659 syringes please verify this, and then test something more efficient such as an insulin one-piece as well? For that matter, anyone who finds they are wasting at least half as much, please post. If you see a flaw in my lab methods, please tell me!

View attachment 560274

So let me ask you this. If you take that olive oil left in your syringe and try to expel it into your sink (or trash) with as much force as you can possibly muster are you telling me it is impossible? Depressing the plunger all the way?

If you can expel it, then you aren't injecting correctly

If you cannot and it is truly wasted in the tip of the syringe, then you need to switch to a different type of syringe. You would not have this problem with 25g Luer-Loks or insulin syringes. Insulin syringes would have less waste between these two options.

 

[WasHousebound]

Not risking damage to my leg for this test, yes, I pressed really hard. That 0.1ml waste is completely real. I'm still not convinced that others are truly wasting only 1-2 drops, but until I can get my hands on another product, I have no way to compare. Someone else will need to find similar results; or prove me false, which is okay with me! I have to order 'kit' from out of state in quantity (dumb state law, who are they protecting by controlling needles?), so I can't make the comparison test. For me, thanks to Chiefy's idea, I'll no longer be wasting any appreciable amount.

At this point, I'm only trying to get someone to confirm my results, and to the benefit of all: actually determine the relative waste between different kits, and with a known amount of waste (0.1ml in BD 309659, and matching needles) to use a bubble of that size at the plunger to eliminate waste without actually injecting any air.

 

[Mprtz]

In your last experiment write-up you disregarded the last paragraph of my last post... unless your plunger has a completely flat face you will not get an accurate measurement they way you describe it.

If your plunger tip is conical then your assertions in 3. do not hold.

 

[Megatron28]

Not risking damage to my leg for this test, yes, I pressed really hard. That 0.1ml waste is completely real. I'm still not convinced that others are truly wasting only 1-2 drops, but until I can get my hands on another product, I have no way to compare. Someone else will need to find similar results; or prove me false, which is okay with me! I have to order 'kit' from out of state in quantity (dumb state law, who are they protecting by controlling needles?), so I can't make the comparison test. For me, thanks to Chiefy's idea, I'll no longer be wasting any appreciable amount.

At this point, I'm only trying to get someone to confirm my results, and to the benefit of all: actually determine the relative waste between different kits, and with a known amount of waste (0.1ml in BD 309659, and matching needles) to use a bubble of that size at the plunger to eliminate waste without actually injecting any air.

In am not talking about testing this on your leg. Try it in the sink. I think it will show you that it ia possible to get most of the liquid out of the syringe with proper technique.

 

[WasHousebound]

See image above (which you can zoom in on). Plunger is flat in a conical tipped syringe. The system is 100% accurate (draw to 0.25ml line, inject 0.25ml, but also waste 0.1ml). There's no pushing that 0.1ml out under any circumstance. If someone who has the same model would please verify my measurement that would be great, but my original question was answered long ago by Chiefy: I'll use a 0.1ml bubble. When I need to reorder, I'll get something more efficient. What is interesting is that nobody, here nor the pharmacist, had any idea that there was such a massive waste, at least using BD 309659. As to how much is wasted in other models, someone else will have to test it.

 

[Megatron28]

See image above (which you can zoom in on). Plunger is flat in a conical tipped syringe. The system is 100% accurate (draw to 0.25ml line, inject 0.25ml, but also waste 0.1ml). There's no pushing that 0.1ml out under any circumstance. If someone who has the same model would please verify my measurement that would be great, but my original question was answered long ago by Chiefy: I'll use a 0.1ml bubble. When I need to reorder, I'll get something more efficient. What is interesting is that nobody, here nor the pharmacist, had any idea that there was such a massive waste, at least using BD 309659. As to how much is wasted in other models, someone else will have to test it.

Syringes and needles are cheap. Why not reorder now and stop wasting your medication?

 

[Mprtz]

See image above (which you can zoom in on). Plunger is flat in a conical tipped syringe. The system is 100% accurate (draw to 0.25ml line, inject 0.25ml, but also waste 0.1ml). There's no pushing that 0.1ml out under any circumstance. If someone who has the same model would please verify my measurement that would be great, but my original question was answered long ago by Chiefy: I'll use a 0.1ml bubble. When I need to reorder, I'll get something more efficient. What is interesting is that nobody, here nor the pharmacist, had any idea that there was such a massive waste, at least using BD 309659. As to how much is wasted in other models, someone else will have to test it.

The picture is too blurry to see, but if the syringe has a flat plunger and a conical end to the barrel, then the waste is built into the design.

You wrote above that it is marked as a tuberculin syringe... maybe a little waste is not an issue with the PPD it is designed to inject.