insulins effects on uptake of other supps

bronco944

Pro Bodybuilder
ok we all know insulin increases uptake of carbs, protein, fat and creatine. heres what im wondering, does insulin have this effect on other supplements or drugs? glutamine is one that seems logical and i use. any others?
 
This is like any other anabolic agent... if you're too young don't take it. Don't use this to get into ketosis unless you are very experienced with slin. It is very tricky business and makes an already dangerous drug much more so.

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Ok, lets have a look at insulin.
Its highly anabolic and non-androgenic, and in case some of you are in the dark (I'd like to think we're all clear on anabolic versus androgenic, but ya never know) I'll briefly touch on the subject before diving in... if youre ok on anabolic/androgenic concepts, skip to the INSULIN part...

ANDROGENIC VERSUS ANABOLIC

ANABOLIC is defined as "The process of constructive metabolism" or of building complex substances out of simple substances.
The way your body processes protien, carbohydrates, and fat (all simple substances) and makes muscle (a complex substance) is ANABOLISM.

ANDROGENIC is basically defined as pertaining to male sex characteristics.

ANDROGENIC/ANABOLIC

"Steroids" are actually called "Anabolic Androgenic Steroids." They accomplish "anabolism" through "anabolic" pathways, some being more androgenic (testosterone esters) and some less (winstrol, anavar, primobolan, ect...
Most often, with reduced androgenic properties comes reduced anabolic properties, but it isnt always cut and dry. If anyone is interested I'll go into it another time, but lets head toward the insulin topic.


INSULIN: NonAndrogenic but Anabolic

Insulin is NOT a sex hormone. It is not related in any way to testosterone, or to estrogen for that matter. It is a product of the pancreas as opposed to testosterone which is a product of the HPTA, pituitary, gonadal, leydig, mishmash of interconnected glands...


WHY IS INSULIN ANABOLIC

So why is insulin anabolic then? Insulin is a partitioning agent. A "shuttle" if you will.
Picture insulin as a bus. Nutrients board the bus, and insulin pulls away and drops off the nutrients at the proper bus stop. That is basically what it does, and for all intents and purposes that is everything you need to know to understand how it works.
So by insulin shuttling these nutrient where they need to go, it enables anabolism and is therefor anabolic!


WHY NOT JUST TAKE CARBS TO RAISE INSULIN

Well, the amount of carbs you would need to take in to increase natural insulin levels to the degree a 10 i.u. shot would would be far more dangerous than using insuiln (and using insulin is NOT that hard OR dangerous).
Carbs at that level would eventually lead to diabetes and fat gains.
If insulin is a bus taking nutrients where they need to go, then exogenous insulin is a bullet train! It can hold far more nutrients than a normal naturally produced burst of insulin can, and it works quicker. Exogenous insulin is the most efficient way to accomplish glycogen overcompensation, period.


WHAT KIND DO I TAKE

Im a major supporter of fast acting insulin. The faster the better!
Currently he fastest acting insulin available is Humalog. It is active in 15 minutes, peaks in 1 hour and clears the system around 2 hours.
Next would be Humalin-R. It is active in about 30 minutes, peaks at the 2 hour mark, and clears the system at the 4 hour mark.
"Biophasics" are mixtures of fast and slow acting insulins, but are not the best choice in my opinion, due to an active dose being in you throughout the day. The reason you dont want that will be covered in the "HOW DO I USE IT" section.
There are also Humalin-L and Humalin-S, but they are long acting, and are no more use to me than the Biophasics. There are also porccine and bovine derived insulin, but I am against injecting animal derived substances.

WHEN (AND HOW MUCH) TO USE

Im going to assume we want to avoid any fat gains at all. Even bulking I dont like to gain any unneccesary fat, so Im going to disuss it from that stand point.
The ultra conservative time to use insulin is post-workout. Most people who are concerned about fat dont go over 10 i.u. as a total dose.
Some people us it on waking, before breakfast, since your body is in a basically carb depleted state. Its the kind of thng you have to try for yourslef, and if it works for you, do it. If you thnk youre gaining fat, stop. BUT! Dont start it at both times at once. Make sure you get your post workout dosage worked out and that you know it is not causing you any fat gains before you try pre-breakfast shots. That way you can take out all the guess work as to where any fat gains may come from.


DISPELLING A FEW MYTHS

There is a commoly held perception that you MUSt take in 10grams of carbs per I.U. of insulin, some radicals say 5 grams... well, theyre both wrong.
I got curious about this when I discovered that my insulin dependant diabetic friend didnt even keep track of what she ate post injection. She would feel hypoglycemic after a shot and take a Glucose Tablet.
A glucose tablet is only 5 grams of glucose (carbs)! So I started to think, "Hmmm, mabye everyone is off point on this?"
After conducting a few experiments on myself, I found that you can go considerably lower in carbs than people previously believed.
Now it doesnt make sense to go low in carbs, because that defies the purpose of using the insulin in the first place, but it does free us from having to use so much that there might be some "spill over" in carbs that cant be utilized. So it really makes us able to have more freedom in carbs choices and amounts.
The "risk" in insulin use is not as risky as people believe. Any person with an ounce of sense can see the warning signs of a problem coming, and remedy the situation.

HOW DO I DO IT

If you look at the drug store, you can get these little pen cases that hold a loaded insulin syringe. They are great for our need, you load up the syringe, and put it in the case, and throw it in your bag/purse/whatever. After the workout, head to a bathroom stall and inject it under the skin! Pull up a little skin from the abdomen or upper thigh (anywhere will do, but these are easiest) and inject. Do not shoot into a muscle. This rushes the dose and makes it harder to predict when it will spike.
So now you have 15 minutes to get some carbs (actually you have longer, since the initial hit of the dose is mild and easy to cope with, the spike is a little more harsh, but still nothing unbearable. If you use the carbs, you probobly wont notice the initial dose OR the spike
(this is based on Humalog at 10 i.u
I use a powder with a 20% simple/80% complex ratio (actually its 17% mono, 5% di, 7% tri, 5%tetra, and 66% penta-saccharides). I use about 60grams of carbs to the 10 i.u. of insulin.
This gives me a nice solid stream of carbs to overcompensate my depleted muscles, but not so many that I risk fat accumulation from the excess.
Now you are good to go till around 1 hour after the initial injection. At this 1 hour mark, the majority of the dose hits your system. Now is the time to eat a good balanced (AND FAT FREE!) meal. The fat-free emphasis will be explained in the POTENTIAL PROBLEMS section. This balance meal of carbs and protien and little to know fat can be anything from a protien drink and a crab drink, to a low fat MRP, to some lean chicken and rice... your choice.
After this meal, you dont need to pay anymore consideration to the insulin, it will gradually decrease and will be out of your system at the 2 hour mark.
Till you get accustmed to the use of insulin, start low and slow. Start at 2 i.u. then 5 i.u. then 7 i.u. then 10 i.u. That way you get a better understanding of any hypoglycemia you may encounter. Ive went as high as 35 i.u., just to try it, but at a certain point a higher dosage doesnt yield any better results (except fat!)

POTENTIAL PROBLEMS

Insulin is relativly safe. If you dont take in any carbs after using it, your body will give you PLENNTY of warning! Youll feel dizzy, tired, achey... hypoglycemic. What is happening is your body has no glycogen to use as fuel. Your muscles re depleted from working out, and often times youve tapped your liver for any remaining glycogen. The insulin does, searching for glycogen to use, takes the rest from your liver, and in the absence of carbs coming in to make more, it heads for the brain.
Your brain uses glucose as its primary fuel source (a little fat, too Thats why you get dizzy and light headed, the same with during a ketogenic diet... low glucose equals light headedness.
So if you forget about the carbs, youll get a warning from yuor body, and you can get your ass in gear and get some carbs in you.
If you get to the point where youre nauseated, just drink some sugary beverage and get some carbs in you quickly. Youre still a long long way from any major danger, but dont mess around.
"Fat Free" I said earlier about the 1 hour mark meal. During the 2 hours of the dosage duration, you should avoid fat like it is the plauge! Insulins partitioning properties are as effective at sending fat to the fat stores as it is carbs and protien to muscles!
So till the dose is clear of your system, NO FAT! (Thats another reason why I advocate the fastest acting insulin you can get


Well, I cant think of anything else off hand that needs to be said, but if I missed anything, just ask. I may have taken somethng for granted and figured everyone would know or assume on their own...
 
There has been increasing popularity, and curiosity, concerning exogenous use of "the most anabolic hormone in the body". This makes it necessary to inform people how to maximize muscle mass acquisition and minimize nasty body fat accumulation when using it. The following is the second article dealing with the effects of exogenous insulin use, combined with several other bodybuilding drugs and supplements, from a muscle anabolism and fat catabolism point of view. Part I outlined insulin use combined with: anabolic steroids, the C/A/E stack, and clenbuterol.
INSULIN AND GROWTH HORMONE
Growth hormone (GH) is one of the most sought after bodybuilding drugs due to its' legendary abilities to strip off body fat and increase muscle mass. The former is accomplished through direct lipolysis (fat release from adipocytes), which GH does to an incredible degree. Muscle mass acquisition is accomplished through: the direct stimulation of protein synthesis, increasing amino acid uptake by muscle cells, and by greatly stimulating IGF-1 synthesis in the liver. It is this last point that is of interest to us because it is the main anabolic mechanism for GH, and it is also where insulin comes in to play. More than half of GHs' anabolic effect is due to IGF-1 production, but unfortunately this is quite often wasted. This is because IGF-1 has an extremely short half life in the bloodstream, so it usually doesn't reach many target tissues (muscles for our interest) to exert maximum anabolic effect. To rectify this situation, insulin can be used to increase the amount of an IGF-1 binding protein (specifically IGF1-BP3) that actually helps IGF-1 to reach the muscles and exert its' extreme anabolism. Insulin also reduces the amount of "bad" IGF1 BP's, (BP's 2 and 4) that would normally interfere with IGF-1 uptake and use by muscle. To say that there is a synergistic effect between insulin and GH doesn't do the combination justice. It makes me shudder to think of the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on GH, without using it to the maximum anabolic potential. From a fat loss perspective, GH is incredible. It should directly negate the lipogenic effect of insulin, leaving you with one KICK ASS combination.
INSULIN AND THYROID HORMONES
With the huge increases in fat mass often accompanying insulin use, it seems like a simple solution to use thyroid hormone. Unfortunately, this doesn't work out very well. The reason is that thyroid hormone (specifically T3 and possibly T4) increases the amount of the "bad" IGF1-BP's mentioned earlier;IGFBP2 and IGFBP4. This may not seem like a big deal if one is not using drugs to stimulate IGF-1 synthesis, but IGF-1 levels are naturally stimulated through acts like stretching, and even natural testosterone/GH increases. All of these things normally accompany workouts (if you know what you're doing), which is the best time to take insulin. So by having all of the free IGF-1 bound by IGFBP3s' evil siblings, much of the anabolic effect of insulin is lost! Since T3 (triiodothyronine) is the main culprit, does that mean that T4 (tetraiodothyronine) can be used with no detrimental effect? NO, because T4 is mostly effective by converting to T3, which leaves you with the same problem. In fact, T4 could very well do the same thing. So if you want to maximize the anabolic effectiveness of insulin while minimizing bodyfat accumulation, use another fat burner and leave the thyroid alone.
INSULIN AND CREATINE
These compounds may have an anti-synergistic effect on each other, meaning that the combined effect is less than the sum of the individual effects. This possibility exists due to both components' ability to store water in muscle cells. If only a certain amount of water can be stored in the cells through each mechanism of action, then the anti-synergistic condition would exist. Although this condition is unlikely, it is worth mentioning for future experimentation purposes (lab rats know where to contact me). One definite advantage of this combination is that creatine is best absorbed by the muscles when insulin serum levels are high, insuring maximum effectiveness. BTW-if one is not doing something as fundamental as using creatine, there is no way they should be using insulin (so basically insulin use requires creatine use).
INSULIN AND HCA
Getting straight to the point, unless you are a moron and are eating fat during insulin use, or you have crappy insulin sensitivity, HCA is the second most effective fat gain inhibitor next to clenbuterol (which is only more effective due to its' ridiculously long half life). Hydroxy Citric Acid (HCA) is the main ingredient in Citrimax, and is a bargain in terms of its': relative effectiveness (when using insulin), cost (cheap, cheap, cheap), and availability. It works by inhibiting an enzyme called ATP citrate ly(s)ase (ACL), which basically converts ingested carbs to fat (which insulin promptly stores). This is normally NOT a big deal since ACL levels are normally low in most humans. However, insulin drastically increases ACL levels (which should make sense based on what you now know about insulin) accounting for most of the, responsible use, fat gain associated with insulin use. This is the most exciting find since the discovery of insulin as an anabolic! Using insulin and not gaining fat while gaining muscle? What a concept! Although I don't like to go into the details of use directly, I believe it is warranted here. 500-750mgs HCA should be taken with or within half an hour after the insulin shot. The usually recommended 250mgs is ineffective in dealing with the drastic increase in ACL levels. The HCA is taken with the shot because both start to work on about one half hour, so the HCA can begin to be effective at the same time that insulin is trying to increase ACL levels. This regimen (only 3X500mgs HCA) prevented fat gain during a day when I used 3 separate insulin shots! To make things even better there is a mild glycogen storage property associated with HCA use. Since ingested carbs cannot be converted to, or stored as, fat, they are generally stored (due to insulin) as glycogen in muscle giving the user a mild but noticeable pump (similar to the first day of creatine use). To end this portion of the list, I give HCA my highest recommendation as the number 1 supplement to use with insulin!
INSULIN AND FLAX SEED OIL
Short and sweet. Don't use flax seed oil with insulin, because it is fat and *will* be stored. The fat storage rules totally change when insulin is involved (I even avoid vitamin E capsules because mine are oil based).
INSULIN AND CLENBUTEROL UPDATE
This may look like an ideal combination at first, but research has shown why my muscle gains with this combo were minimal. Clen reduces insulin sensitivity, which means that insulin will have a much harder time doing its' anabolic job on muscle tissue. In addition to storing amino acids as muscle, insulin also stores carbs in muscle (which gives a very "full" look to the muscles), which reduced insulin sensitivity also hinders. This is also combined with the fact that clen reduces Glut-4 transporters (which allow glucose passage, and subsequent storage, into muscle) in skeletal muscle which probably accounts for clens' ability to reduce muscle glycogen concentration. On a lighter note, the fat burning effects of clen are potentiated by aspirin and caffeine (through personal experience) but still die off after a few weeks. Overall the only time I would recommend this combination occurs when coming off a cycle and every bit of anabolism is needed, otherwise the two drugs have a bad effect (from an anabolic standpoint) on each other.
SIMPLE TIPS TO MAXIMIZE ANABOLISM AND MINIMIZE FAT GAIN WITH INSULIN USE
-USE HCA
- use testosterone enhancing compounds to increase hepatic IGF-1 production
- only use insulin first thing in the morning or during/after workouts
- don't consume *any* fat 2 hours before (due to digestion time) or one hour after (due to induced enzyme activity) insulin use
- stretch to locally increase IGF-1 levels
- continually eat protein spread over the 4-5 hour duration of insulin activity
Finally, my favorite tip from Docroid: (I) use one shot of insulin just before a one hour workout and another shot two hours after the first. This creates synergism between the activity of the two shots by the later shot increasing in activity at the same time as the first shot decreases in activity, giving one a steady high insulin level at the most important time for anabolism! The only time I can say that I have seen dramatic results from insulin use (in terms of muscle anabolism) occurs when I do this "technique". HOWEVER, this is *very* tricky, in terms of serum glucose levels, even for seasoned insulin users. After using for a while, one can get used to the "feel" of insulin, blood sugar crashes, feeding times etc. but things change when one has a high level of insulin for 3-4 hours straight. I've had to eat every hour for three hours during one of my first attempts at this technique, but every two hours some other attempts. This is the only time I don't feel secure with my own insulin use. It's actually a good thing I can now recognize what a blood sugar crash feels like or I'd probably be dead due to this technique. I don't recommend this technique to anyone (and if that's not a big deal to you, just remember who is writing this) but if you feel like using it, make sure that you have had a couple of, (horrible) insulin induced, serum glucose crashes so you can recognize the early warning signs for when you have them (and you *will* have them).
 
btw when i was 17 i was using slin for the purpose you recomended not doing, geting into ketosis and as i got more experienced staying in ketosis while taking in around 200 grams of carbs a day.
 
bronco944 said:
thanks dg, but ive been using slin since i was 17, almost 21 now. didnt need the cut and paste.

Its no biggie bro I just used the article and had it already to smack here.
though I was trying to help.
o-well
 
bronco944 said:
ok we all know insulin increases uptake of carbs, protein, fat and creatine. heres what im wondering, does insulin have this effect on other supplements or drugs? glutamine is one that seems logical and i use. any others?

thought I was answering a question.
 
i apreciate the effort bro, but im not wonderin about the known effects, but interactions with other drugs or supps. insulins a shuttle, so what else does it shuttle?
 
the second post I did says infos on about every interactions with slin and sups I can think of.

Its interesting slin and clen are not compatible seems like they would compliment each other well.
 
You mentioned glutamine, I would also think creatine would be affected. All the creatine supps try to spike your insulin levels w/carbs so it definately comes to mind.
 
my guess is that they could, if you took enough slin. if clen reduces insulin sensitivity then you can over come that by taking more slin. i think the supps or drugs that would bee affected by slin would be ones that are stored in the body, not ones that atach to a receptor. like creatine for instance, your bosy stores it, slin increases the amouint that is stored. but Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) binds to receptors, therfore slin does nothing to help this process. so i guess what i should be asking is what drugs as stored in cells in the body?
 
INSULIN AND CREATINE
These compounds may have an anti-synergistic effect on each other, meaning that the combined effect is less than the sum of the individual effects. This possibility exists due to both components' ability to store water in muscle cells. If only a certain amount of water can be stored in the cells through each mechanism of action, then the anti-synergistic condition would exist. Although this condition is unlikely, it is worth mentioning for future experimentation purposes (lab rats know where to contact me). One definite advantage of this combination is that creatine is best absorbed by the muscles when insulin serum levels are high, insuring maximum effectiveness. BTW-if one is not doing something as fundamental as using creatine, there is no way they should be using insulin (so basically insulin use requires creatine use).
 
ectomorph said:
You mentioned glutamine, I would also think creatine would be affected. All the creatine supps try to spike your insulin levels w/carbs so it definately comes to mind.

creatine is def affected, theres medical studies proving this, this is what promted me to ask what other drugs absorbion rates are higher with slin.
 
I know the oral absorbtion of pure glutamine is very low, 10-30% at best. Im sure that insulin would raise this a bit, but still to maybe only 30-40%. As far as other supplements, caffeine (such as in ECA or NYC) decrease insulin sensitivity, therefore making you have to take more to get the desired affect, and also NSAIDS, have been shown to blunt protein synthesis, and this is one of the affects of insulin that is desired, protein synthesis, increased glycogen storage, stopping muscle catabolism.
 
Bro,
I've never seen any mention of insulin promoting the uptake of ANY drug into the cells; of course, it does effect the uptake of amino acids, of which glutamine is an example (since you asked about glutamine).
 
buffdoc said:
Bro,
I've never seen any mention of insulin promoting the uptake of ANY drug into the cells; of course, it does effect the uptake of amino acids, of which glutamine is an example (since you asked about glutamine).

What about taking your multivitamins post-shot, any greater uptake?
 
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