interesting read on eating for muscle gains

[3J]

For diet I only believe what 3J tells me! I can see/know it works.

haha, thanks for believing in me brother..

but there was a wealth of knowledge being thrown around here.. its just about picking a system and following it.. you've decided to pick mine, and i truly appreciate that!!

 

[cybrsage]

You Sir Are wrong Whey is absorbed in the lining of the stomach and is rapidly converted into glycogen. Isolate is the king when it comes to supplements. There is a 15 minutes window post work out when the body is anabolic if you are able to get whey protein isolate in the body you can replenish to 76% of the glycogen just used working out. Add Insulin and 2 meals and the growth is sick.

When I consume whey all I produce is gas...and a LOT of it. Of course, I am lactose intolerant...

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

nope... its very possible to do with protein..

3J, you know that I respect both you & DPR but lets not pretend that protein is sufficient to replenish glycogen.
Possible? Sure. Efficient? No. Optimal? No.

Here is a study of interest:
Gluconeogenesis and energy expenditure after ... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

The study shows that on a high protein, zero carb diet at maintenance gluconeogenesis (the meta-bolic pathway used to turn protein into glucose) increased BUT overall glucose production was still lower compared to a group consuming slightly lower protein, higher carbs with the same calories.
This translates to overall glycogen levels being LOWER in the high protein group.

Reading any basic physiology book also backs this up, protein is not an optimal source for replenishing glycogen - that still belongs to starchy carbs.

 

[3J]

3J, you know that I respect both you & DPR but lets not pretend that protein is sufficient to replenish glycogen.
Possible? Sure. Efficient? No. Optimal? No.

Here is a study of interest:
Gluconeogenesis and energy expenditure after ... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

The study shows that on a high protein, zero carb diet at maintenance gluconeogenesis (the meta-bolic pathway used to turn protein into glucose) increased BUT overall glucose production was still lower compared to a group consuming slightly lower protein, higher carbs with the same calories.
This translates to overall glycogen levels being LOWER in the high protein group.

Reading any basic physiology book also backs this up, protein is not an optimal source for replenishing glycogen - that still belongs to starchy carbs.

Rip, DPRs philosophy on this specific subject is not something i personally follow.. i agree with carbs post workout and set up my diets accordingly..

i simply stated it was possible to restore glucose

 

[3J]

rip... just looked at that study.. did i read that correctly?? the actual study was 1 1/2 days??

 

[3J]

also these were normal men correct?? we were not talking about bodybuilding specifically in this study..

 

[3J]

we also have to consider the anabolic window dpr is talking about.. and also how he would set up the rest of the diet??

seems in this study they were full keto..

there are alot of red flags with this study that im seeing..

which is why i always take what dpr has into consideration.. he has more experience in nutrition than both of us combined likely..

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

rip... just looked at that study.. did i read that correctly?? the actual study was 1 1/2 days??

Correct - it simply looks at whether protein in itself can restore glycogen to the same level as carbs. A longer study is always nice, but rate of gluconeogenesis doesnt change with time, only with intake.
So to increase the rate of gluconeogenesis you would need much more protein.

That study is referenced multiple times in other reviews/studies so I can assure you its legit

 

[3J]

Correct - it simply looks at whether protein in itself can restore glycogen to the same level as carbs. A longer study is always nice, but rate of gluconeogenesis doesnt change with time, only with intake.
So to increase the rate of gluconeogenesis you would need much more protein.

That study is referenced multiple times in other reviews/studies so I can assure you its legit

i just see some holes in this study.. i wish it was longer and wish it was aimed more towards the performance athlete (dont we all?? thats the problem with 90% of studies done today involving nutrition)

 

[3J]

without experience with clients we are slaves to these half ass studies that dont apply to our world most of the time..

what a pain in the ass.. i look at every study with such a critical eye

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

we also have to consider the anabolic window dpr is talking about.. and also how he would set up the rest of the diet??

seems in this study they were full keto..

there are alot of red flags with this study that im seeing..

which is why i always take what dpr has into consideration.. he has more experience in nutrition than both of us combined likely..

The debate with dpr was concerning the best way to replenish glycogen, he stated very clearly that he believed that whey protein was best, I disagreed & human physiology is on my side with this man.

How would a post anabolic window suddenly make protein a better source for glycogen replenishment over carbs?
How would it alter a meta-bolic pathway to suddenly decide to use protein to restore glycogen but ALSO deal with tge issue of muscle tissue damage & repair?

We cant say that 70-80g protein will do it IF you use insulin, have normal meals etc.
This is the equivalent to me saying sugar pills will help you lose fat if you follow a caloric deficit & do cardio.

Does protein in ISOLATION replenish glycogen better than carbs & if so where is the evidence?
Let me just say that there are no studies suggesting this is the case, and meta-bolic pathways like this isn't something you can determine based in experience or opinion - it requires biological evidence.

Also, 1.5 days isnt enough time to go into a ketogenic state lol.

 

[3J]

The debate with dpr was concerning the best way to replenish glycogen, he stated very clearly that he believed that whey protein was best, I disagreed & human physiology is on my side with this man.

How would a post anabolic window suddenly make protein a better source for glycogen replenishment over carbs?
How would it alter a meta-bolic pathway to suddenly decide to use protein to restore glycogen but ALSO deal with tge issue of muscle tissue damage & repair?

We cant say that 70-80g protein will do it IF you use insulin, have normal meals etc.
This is the equivalent to me saying sugar pills will help you lose fat if you follow a caloric deficit & do cardio.

Does protein in ISOLATION replenish glycogen better than carbs & if so where is the evidence?
Let me just say that there are no studies suggesting this is the case, and meta-bolic pathways like this isn't something you can determine based in experience or opinion - it requires biological evidence.

Also, 1.5 days isnt enough time to go into a ketogenic state lol.

i dont believe protein in isolation replenishes glycogen better than carbs.. i believe it does do a decent job of replenishing it.. but we are always looking for an optimal path..

lets take insulin out of the matter.. thats a whole different world where things get funky lol..

there is no evidence for the matter because there hasn't been a study done specifically for what we need... your study that you posted suggests your theory correct..and im inclined to agree.. i just think it was a weak study

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

i dont believe protein in isolation replenishes glycogen better than carbs.. i believe it does do a decent job of replenishing it.. but we are always looking for an optimal path..

lets take insulin out of the matter.. thats a whole different world where things get funky lol..

there is no evidence for the matter because there hasn't been a study done specifically for what we need... your study that you posted suggests your theory correct..and im inclined to agree.. i just think it was a weak study

I agree with all of this, including your points about the study lol.

If I could upload some textbooks I would man BUT alas it would take hours to scan

 

[Enthusiast]

i just see some holes in this study.. i wish it was longer and wish it was aimed more towards the performance athlete (dont we all?? thats the problem with 90% of studies done today involving nutrition)

Due to the clear success that 3j has achieved with his clients stemming from multitudes of b/a pictures and testimonials, personally I would be inclined to believe the facts from his side due to the simple fact of the experience he has. There is also truth to his statement that these studies are not typically done on bodybuilders so that needs to be taken into consideration as we are not average Joe/jill's.

 

[3J]

I agree with all of this, including your points about the study lol.

If I could upload some textbooks I would man BUT alas it would take hours to scan

give me titles..

 

[Enthusiast]

give me titles..

Yet another reason 3j is the best, always willing to listen and research well founded ideas!

 

[ImAuNatural]

Yet another reason 3j is the best, always willing to listen and research well founded ideas!

Knowledge is power.

 

[Enthusiast]

Knowledge is power.

Does that mean 3j has achieved demi God status?

 

[Mrrippedzilla]

give me titles..

This is what I was looking for originally, its a beast of a review on post workout nutrition:

Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?

Go to the glycogen repletion section & you will see that its unnecessary to immediately try & restore glycogen levels (no such thing as a 15 min window for this).
In fact the review states that as long as overall carb intake is sufficient, glycogen replenishment shouldnt be a concern post-wo.
The review also supports carbs for this role, protein+carbs might speed up the process but no where does it even mention that protein postworkout is better than carbs for glycogen replenishment.

So specifically for postworkout, glycogen replenishment isnt a problem as long as daily carb intake is sufficient. There is zero evidence to suggest protein can do this role better than carbs.

Again, this is a huge review relevant to all bodybuilders so I cant see how anyone can advocate against it

 

[3J]

Lmao guys im not trying to discredit rip.. I respect his input and his opinion