Juced and Jimi Talk Juice....

[JimiThing]

So its funny how the internet works. Where else would I befriend a Canadian Vegetarian Bodybuilder who calls himself Juced_Porkchop??? Anyway I have become pretty close with Juced and have a ton of respect for his dedication to this lifestyle, the board, and his overall knowledge on all things pertaining to the bodybuilding way of life. I wanted to start this thread where he and I will openly discuss and sometimes debate various topics pertaining to steroids, cycles, ancillaries, and well, all things steroid if you will. I encourage everyone to jump in, participate, give their opinions and ask any questions they might have.
SO Juced, what do you say we start off talking about PCT???

 

[Fresh2death]

Pct? Never heard of it ...

 

[Austin1]

Great post jimithing. Much respect for both of you.

 

[JimiThing]

Great post jimithing. Much respect for both of you.

Im sure I speak for both of us when I say the feeling is mutual and we look forward to your input and participation in this thread!

 

[DreDay187]

This is a great idea and one I'm sure many can learn from. I hope to see some good debates from 2 extremely knowledgable mods!

 

[juced_porkchop]

So its funny how the internet works. Where else would I befriend a Canadian Vegetarian Bodybuilder who calls himself Juced_Porkchop??? Anyway I have become pretty close with Juced and have a ton of respect for his dedication to this lifestyle, the board, and his overall knowledge on all things pertaining to the bodybuilding way of life. I wanted to start this thread where he and I will openly discuss and sometimes debate various topics pertaining to steroids, cycles, ancillaries, and well, all things steroid if you will. I encourage everyone to jump in, participate, give their opinions and ask any questions they might have.
SO Juced, what do you say we start off talking about PCT???

Thank you very much for the kind words Jimi!
Jimi has also taught me a thing or two which I am very grateful for.
It is awesome to meet and talk with people in this type of lifestyle that have done many years of research and be able to debate theory's and view points with some knowledge to back it up!
I am really looking forward to this thread


PCT is a good topic. It is one of the first things any person new to AAS should research, yes even before researching much into the steroids.
Why?
Because a speedy recovery after cycle should be at the top of your list!
A good PCT will mean more kept gains and a healthier body.

I feel a combo of SERMs should be used vs. just one SERM like a solo clomid PCT for example.

What is your optimal PCT for the standard cycle Jimi?
How you you feel about 1 SERM for PCT versus 2 or 3 SERMS as a PCT?

 

[juced_porkchop]

Im sure I speak for both of us when I say the feeling is mutual and we look forward to your input and participation in this thread!

AMEN to that!

 

[DreDay187]

2 SERMs I wholeheartedly agree with. They each perform slightly different functions and a synergistic effect is noticed when running both as Austinite has pointed out in his PCT article. By including nolva with your clomid, it makes the clomid work harder to bind to a receptor. Also, as he points out, look a only increases LH signal frequency not amplitude whereas clomid affects the amplitude and not the frequency.

 

[comrade00]

Cant wait to read up on what you guys post about PCT

If you can, later on down the road please cover Tren.

I been juicing for a year and read hours and hours worth of stuff but I still feel like I dont know jack shit about Tren. I was actually going to make a thread saying that Tren should have its own sticky thread covering the basics from the different types of Tren, to what exactly it does to you body and sides and all that

 

[DD55]

Will beast be posting any plagiarized articles in here? If so, I'm out. My gut can't take any more laughter.

 

[Austin1]

Ok. Back from work. I wanna play... this is the kind of thread that I love.

First thanks for the kind words, red colored fella's

Agree with everyone, PCT should be a high priority for anyone who requires recovery. It's quite shocking how often we see threads where someone is asking about PCT mid-cycle. I hope this thread brings much awareness for the betterment of everyones health!

PCT protocols are usually similar across the board. What's wild is that our cycles are far from similar. So can we conclude that whatever compound at 100/50/50/50 would suffice for any cycle? I'm going with... No.

Personally, I agree with Juced_Porkchop. One SERM will not suffice. You need 2 so that you minimize your chances of failing. That being said, I think that the daily doses can be similar for anyone and every type of cycle. However, I do not think that PCT spans should all be the same. Not every cycle will require a 4 week post cycle therapy (pct).

For example, if you run a simple testosterone cycle, or test/anavar cycle, you can do the following:

Clomiphene @ 75/50/50/50 & Tamoxifen @ 40/20/20/20

However, if you run 12 weeks of Test and Nandrolone, I think you should extend your post cycle therapy (pct), with at least Tamoxifen, like so:

Clomiphene 75/50/50/50 & Tamoxifen @ 40/20/20/20/20/20

^ That's 2 additional weeks of therapy. I don't see too many compounds that would require more than 6 weeks. However, I think the extension should be taken seriously with compound that linger around longer than others, and/or leave behind more damage than others.

I've seen some folks that attempt 300 mg of clomiphene daily. This is really unnecessary and your chances of feeling "OK" during those days are slim to none. Your body just took a beating, no need to beat it up any longer.

That's really what I wanted to point out as a start in this thread.

 

[DipKing]

I have been thinking about a question somewhat related to the topic of PCT for some time now. A few months ago, a fellow Steroidology member posted a thread asking for advice on his recent blood test results. The poor guy had quite low test levels for his age (23), Testosterone Serum- 352 ng/dl 348- 1197, but said he felt relatively fine. The thread can be seen here:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/654757-help-bloodwork-low-t.html

Mr. Cbman was advised his PCT had failed, and his best course of action would be to seek the help of a trained professional, but he could attempt a restart himself by dosing "hCG @ 500 IU EOD for 3 weeks, then clomid @ 50mg mon/wed/fri for 3 months". We never heard from him again, or at least I didn't.

My question is:
1) Being a few months after his failed post cycle therapy (pct), what are the chances of an individual actually rebooting themselves with this protocol? Is it possible to rebound and are the chances slim, or are low test levels just a part of life now?
2) I have little knowledge on hCG, but I have read of men on trt attempting to conceive who take large doses of hCG. In what way does this help?
3) Is age a major factor for success?

 

[shenky]

I have been thinking about a question somewhat related to the topic of PCT for some time now. A few months ago, a fellow Steroidology member posted a thread asking for advice on his recent blood test results. The poor guy had quite low test levels for his age (23), Testosterone Serum- 352 ng/dl 348- 1197, but said he felt relatively fine. The thread can be seen here:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/654757-help-bloodwork-low-t.html

Mr. Cbman was advised his PCT had failed, and his best course of action would be to seek the help of a trained professional, but he could attempt a restart himself by dosing "hCG @ 500 IU EOD for 3 weeks, then clomid @ 50mg mon/wed/fri for 3 months". We never heard from him again, or at least I didn't.

My question is:
1) Being a few months after his failed post cycle therapy (pct), what are the chances of an individual actually rebooting themselves with this protocol? Is it possible to rebound and are the chances slim, or are low test levels just a part of life now?
2) I have little knowledge on hCG, but I have read of men on trt attempting to conceive who take large doses of hCG. In what way does this help?
3) Is age a major factor for success?

Also curious about this. If you run a poor PCT protocol, are you faced with a prolonged recovery or a non existent one?

 

[Austin1]

I have been thinking about a question somewhat related to the topic of PCT for some time now. A few months ago, a fellow Steroidology member posted a thread asking for advice on his recent blood test results. The poor guy had quite low test levels for his age (23), Testosterone Serum- 352 ng/dl 348- 1197, but said he felt relatively fine. The thread can be seen here:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/654757-help-bloodwork-low-t.html

Mr. Cbman was advised his PCT had failed, and his best course of action would be to seek the help of a trained professional, but he could attempt a restart himself by dosing "hCG @ 500 IU EOD for 3 weeks, then clomid @ 50mg mon/wed/fri for 3 months". We never heard from him again, or at least I didn't.

My question is:
1) Being a few months after his failed post cycle therapy (pct), what are the chances of an individual actually rebooting themselves with this protocol? Is it possible to rebound and are the chances slim, or are low test levels just a part of life now?
2) I have little knowledge on hCG, but I have read of men on trt attempting to conceive who take large doses of hCG. In what way does this help?
3) Is age a major factor for success?

Excellent question, DK. First of all, I have no idea about the situation of the member, but that is good advice above.

To answer your questions...

1. The chances of restarting after a failed post cycle therapy (pct), is just as good as the chances of succeeding at post cycle therapy (pct). There's absolutely no way to quantify this. There's chain reaction that results in spermatogenesis and it starts at the Hypothalamus. In the event that SERMs induced Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) at the hypothalamus, the pituitary may or may not respond by releasing gonadotropins (LH & FSH). This is why you need blood work to see if LH and FSH are high enough to be productive.

In the event that the pituitary responds generously, you have to see if your Leydig and Sertoli cells are responsive in your testes. In the event that they do not respond, that would indicate desensitized cells (Unlikely Sertoli, the sperm producing cells, but likely Leydig, the testosterone producing cells.) hCG in this event, in low doses (not blasting), can, with huge emphasis on 'can', re-sensitize the cells. This needs to be a short term run with an immediate switch to SERMs so that LH Analog from hCG is depleted and natural LH from the pituitary takes over in a smooth-like-transition. Clomiphene therapy would require extended periods, such as outlined in your post. This is how several successful physicians were able to restart eligible patients in clinical studies.

2. hCG can aid in fertility-retention. The reason is that follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) cannot produce sperm on its own. Both; natural testosterone and FSH are required to stimulate sertoli cells into sperm production. So hCG would benefit a patient by maintaining healthy, natural testosterone, the other half of this equation.

In the event that hCG would not suffice, Human Menopausal Gonadotropin (HMG) can be used to mimic the FSH signal and complete the cycle. Clomiphene can be used in this situation, but not generally in cases of secondary hypogonadism (HP-axis) such as benign pituitary tumor patients.

3. Age is a factor, yes. The younger you are, the more higher your chances. Older patients are getting closer to developing Late-Onset hypogonadism. This is the 3rd type that is not related to primary (testes) or secondary (HP-Axis) failure, but merely a sign of aging. Late onset is in everyone's future.

I hope I was able to shed some light.

 

[DrHouse]

I have been thinking about a question somewhat related to the topic of PCT for some time now. A few months ago, a fellow Steroidology member posted a thread asking for advice on his recent blood test results. The poor guy had quite low test levels for his age (23), Testosterone Serum- 352 ng/dl 348- 1197, but said he felt relatively fine. The thread can be seen here:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/654757-help-bloodwork-low-t.html

Mr. Cbman was advised his PCT had failed, and his best course of action would be to seek the help of a trained professional, but he could attempt a restart himself by dosing "hCG @ 500 IU EOD for 3 weeks, then clomid @ 50mg mon/wed/fri for 3 months". We never heard from him again, or at least I didn't.

My question is:
1) Being a few months after his failed post cycle therapy (pct), what are the chances of an individual actually rebooting themselves with this protocol? Is it possible to rebound and are the chances slim, or are low test levels just a part of life now?
2) I have little knowledge on hCG, but I have read of men on trt attempting to conceive who take large doses of hCG. In what way does this help?
3) Is age a major factor for success?

I wouldn't mind to take a stab at these.

1) I wouldn't honestly think (depending on the individual of course) that the natural process of your body restarting its own natural production would take several weeks (possibly months). There could be a variety of causes for this such as the esters used during the cycle. I have read articles that deca could continuously be released (in small amounts) over several months after usage. Even though small amounts, I would assume that a sensitive individual could experience restart issues. To sort of touch #3, age would be an important role in restarting but I would not say that age is THE factor in deciding a restart. My opinion would suggest that the sensitivity of the individual would play a larger role. I know individuals who don't use PCT period and I have never heard them complain about their wiener not working which I don't really ask. But, that isn't to say their total Testosterone level is not in the 300s or lower. The scale that I have been measured on goes as low as 180s (I think) with the high of 726. In a thread I made myself about experiencing low T, I did not experience symptoms that affected me physically until my levels were sub 300s. And even then it wasn't constant. Some people just have "low T" considering the range which is why there is a range. Also, each university/hospital/lab can choose their own range based on studies they conducted or view appropriate.

Long story short, I think "low T" is relative. If you're not experiencing issues because you have a level of 300ng/dL I wouldn't declare low T. However, someone at the exact same level may experience low libido, ED, and many other symptoms. Again, it is all based on the individual. I would say it is possible for a "restart" to raise natural production but I am not a doctor (regardless of the name) so I can not provide definitive evidence.

2 - Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) basically helps with the synthesis of testosterone and prevents testicular atrophy. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is also used to help with fertility which is why it is recommended to use throughout your cycle or on TRT.

 

[DrHouse]

Excellent question, DK. First of all, I have no idea about the situation of the member, but that is good advice above.

To answer your questions...

1. The chances of restarting after a failed post cycle therapy (pct), is just as good as the chances of succeeding at post cycle therapy (pct). There's absolutely no way to quantify this. There's chain reaction that results in spermatogenesis and it starts at the Hypothalamus. In the event that SERMs induced Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) at the hypothalamus, the pituitary may or may not respond by releasing gonadotropins (LH & FSH). This is why you need blood work to see if LH and FSH are high enough to be productive.

In the event that the pituitary responds generously, you have to see if your Leydig and Sertoli cells are responsive in your testes. In the event that they do not respond, that would indicate desensitized cells (Unlikely Sertoli, the sperm producing cells, but likely Leydig, the testosterone producing cells.) hCG in this event, in low doses (not blasting), can, with huge emphasis on 'can', re-sensitize the cells. This needs to be a short term run with an immediate switch to SERMs so that LH Analog from hCG is depleted and natural LH from the pituitary takes over in a smooth-like-transition. Clomiphene therapy would require extended periods, such as outlined in your post. This is how several successful physicians were able to restart eligible patients in clinical studies.

2. hCG can aid in fertility-retention. The reason is that follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) cannot produce sperm on its own. Both; natural testosterone and FSH are required to stimulate sertoli cells into sperm production. So hCG would benefit a patient by maintaining healthy, natural testosterone, the other half of this equation.

In the event that hCG would not suffice, Human Menopausal Gonadotropin (HMG) can be used to mimic the FSH signal and complete the cycle. Clomiphene can be used in this situation, but not generally in cases of secondary hypogonadism (HP-axis) such as benign pituitary tumor patients.

3. Age is a factor, yes. The younger you are, the more higher your chances. Older patients are getting closer to developing Late-Onset hypogonadism. This is the 3rd type that is not related to primary (testes) or secondary (HP-Axis) failure, but merely a sign of aging. Late onset is in everyone's future.

I hope I was able to shed some light.

You're just too smart..

 

[SilverBackGorilla]

Error, I am dumb.

 

[SilverBackGorilla]

I'd like to ask a Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) question if I might since you're already on the subject. I added Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to my TRT protocol after already being on TRT for two months. Obviously my LH and FSH had really tanked by then. Adding 500iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) has raised the LH and FSH a tad since starting. How do I determine if I am using enough HCG? If this isn't the place for this, feel free to delete this and I'll P.M. Beast666 for the correct answer. Thanks.

 

[DreDay187]

I'd like to ask a Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) question if I might since you're already on the subject. I added Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) to my TRT protocol after already being on TRT for two months. Obviously my LH and FSH had really tanked by then. Adding 500iu of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) has raised the LH and FSH a tad since starting. How do I determine if I am using enough HCG? If this isn't the place for this, feel free to delete this and I'll P.M. Beast666 for the correct answer. Thanks.

HCG won't raise LH or FSH, in fact it does quite the opposite. It acts as an analog signal as Austin mentioned and therefor suppresses the natural signal. 250iu twice weekly should be plenty to send enough of a signal to keep the testes functioning and aid in adrenal production.

 

[SilverBackGorilla]

HCG won't raise LH or FSH, in fact it does quite the opposite. It acts as an analog signal as Austin mentioned and therefor suppresses the natural signal. 250iu twice weekly should be plenty to send enough of a signal to keep the testes functioning and aid in adrenal production.

Cool buddy, thank you for answering that. Night all, time to grow.