Juced and Jimi Talk Juice....

[juced_porkchop]

Can we make it a requisite that anyone debating a side have some semblance of logic and/or scholarly articles/studies in their arguments? Not just a random post off t-nation or bc "my supplier told me to run it this way", etc?

Yeah anyone that has their argument based off of what a shop told them to use or what some random not well known people in this type of life style told them... please post least SOMETHING to back it up.
I know some things will be from feed back only and that is all their is due to the fact there is not much studies are done on steroids in people that use them for bodybuilding or power lifting or that are using compounds for "off script/label use". but if you are going to come on here and say for example "PCT is worthless and a waste of time" then come with something to back that up...

 

[DreDay187]

Yeah anyone that has their argument based off of what a shop told them to use or what some random not well known people in this type of life style told them... please post least SOMETHING to back it up.
I know some things will be from feed back only and that is all their is due to the fact there is not much studies are done on steroids in people that use them for bodybuilding or power lifting or that are using compounds for "off script/label use". but if you are going to come on here and say for example "PCT is worthless and a waste of time" then come with something to back that up...

Lol, why did I know you'd use that specific example hahaha

 

[juced_porkchop]

Every time i see the opportunity to jump in with an educated answer i see Austin, Dre or other respected members have beat me to it, and even elaborated on what i could have contributed..

Such a pleasure having such knowledgeable people on hand... So ill just kick back and soak up the knowledge...LOL

I am going through the Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) debate with my Doctor now.

I raised a concern about my fertility and being on TRT... So tomorrow i have to drop a sperm sample on his desk. If they are gtg, he said they would take me of TRT and just run HCG.

Does this sound correct?

I hope you are going to drop it on his desk in a cup atleast! haha

my op: just be on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT), when time comes to WANTING to have kids, use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for a little while (say 2 months maybe) then Clomid alone for a couple months and start trying to conceive a few weeks after starting the Clomid.
Clomid can really help you. I wouldent go with just Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) IMO.

are you trying to have kid right now? or is this down the line? if its down the line then no rush with the HCG. IMO

 

[WhiteDog]

I hope you are going to drop it on his desk in a cup atleast! haha

my op: just be on Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT), when time comes to WANTING to have kids, use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for a little while (say 2 months maybe) then Clomid alone for a couple months and start trying to conceive a few weeks after starting the Clomid.
Clomid can really help you. I wouldent go with just Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) IMO.

are you trying to have kid right now? or is this down the line? if its down the line then no rush with the HCG. IMO

Maybe in 6 months... Just don't want to do anything that might lessen the chances of my swimmers going on a total vacation, if they haven't already.

Yes i will be providing the sample in a cup Dam i get a good laugh out of this site some times....

Yes you are correct, there is very little studies been conducted on AAS users. I have found a few published articles at my university, however nothing recent or any new findings as such to contradict any reliable information found on this site. However, i believe from reading some of Austins posts, i have learnt that you need to dig a little deeper.. As with most research.

 

[Frank White]

You mean at what dosages shutdown begins to occur?

Yes sir...someone answered any test added will bring your natty level down...any other thoughts?

 

[DreDay187]

Yes sir...someone answered any test added will bring your natty level down...any other thoughts?

The fact that as little as 50-100mg weekly can bring hypogonadal patients to the upper limit of the reference range says a lot about pharmacy grade test. So if you're not hypo and inject even a small amount it's going to raise levels enough for the body to compensate by dropping the amount of test it produces. Whether it's complete shutdown or partial is really dependent on how much higher your levels go but I agree that any amount will cause at least slight suppression

 

[DreDay187]

Yes sir...someone answered any test added will bring your natty level down...any other thoughts?

The fact that as little as 50-100mg weekly can bring hypogonadal patients to the upper limit of the reference range says a lot about pharmacy grade test. So if you're not hypo and inject even a small amount it's going to raise levels enough for the body to compensate by dropping the amount of test it produces. Whether it's complete shutdown or partial is really dependent on how much higher your levels go but I agree that any amount will cause at least slight suppression

 

[WhiteDog]

The fact that as little as 50-100mg weekly can bring hypogonadal patients to the upper limit of the reference range says a lot about pharmacy grade test. So if you're not hypo and inject even a small amount it's going to raise levels enough for the body to compensate by dropping the amount of test it produces. Whether it's complete shutdown or partial is really dependent on how much higher your levels go but I agree that any amount will cause at least slight suppression

Does the body actually slow down production? or go into total shut down?

Wish i could find an article with a study in which a measurable figure could be given.

I know everyone is different, but do you believe that even a very small dose of test, below, even half of say a normal range, would shut you down completely for a small amount of time?

 

[DreDay187]

Does the body actually slow down production? or go into total shut down?

Wish i could find an article with a study in which a measurable figure could be given.

I know everyone is different, but do you believe that even a very small dose of test, below, even half of say a normal range, would shut you down completely for a small amount of time?

A very small dose may not shut you down completely but why is that important to know? Is anyone going to start blasting on 15mg of test a week bc it's not completely shutting them down? It's also extremely user dependent which makes it difficult to further generalize. The problem is we are injecting synthetic hormones into our body to either reach therapeutic levels or supra physiologic levels, and the body will adapt to it to maintain homeostasis. The argument could be made and often is, if you're not ready to accept the consequences you shouldn't be using AAS. No one can guarantee your recovery and it's a very real risk you're taking, are you ready to face the results of your actions?

 

[WhiteDog]

A very small dose may not shut you down completely but why is that important to know? Is anyone going to start blasting on 15mg of test a week bc it's not completely shutting them down? It's also extremely user dependent which makes it difficult to further generalize. The problem is we are injecting synthetic hormones into our body to either reach therapeutic levels or supra physiologic levels, and the body will adapt to it to maintain homeostasis. The argument could be made and often is, if you're not ready to accept the consequences you shouldn't be using AAS. No one can guarantee your recovery and it's a very real risk you're taking, are you ready to face the results of your actions?

I would hate to think anyone was going to be blasting such a small dose just to find out..

My interest is generated by the fact that i see so many first timers on this forum take their first shot and then decide it is not for them and ask if PCT would be required. The advise often given is No.
I wonder to my self if they would in fact have completely shut down from 1 shot of sus 250 for example, and would benefit from a PCT...

 

[DreDay187]

I would hate to think anyone was going to be blasting such a small dose just to find out..

My interest is generated by the fact that i see so many first timers on this forum take their first shot and then decide it is not for them and ask if PCT would be required. The advise often given is No.
I wonder to my self if they would in fact have completely shut down from 1 shot of sus 250 for example, and would benefit from a PCT...

Well after only one shot not much test has been injected or metabolized and you don't get the effect of compounding dosages so a PCT generally wouldn't be required for that short a duration. The trade off with Sustanon (sust) 250 having long esters is that it doesn't spike your levels as much as a shorter ester would but it would take slightly longer to clear.

 

[DipKing]

I would get blood work and check thyroid levels. and avoid drinking coffee for energy, it is a cycle that wont help. a coupel cups is one thing, but drinking it all day is not good. imo
again if you where gonna recover it would happen with or without PCT IMO. the fact you did post cycle therapy (pct), felt fine, now months later you are having issues.. I think you need blood work. did you get your test levels checked before cycle? or any blood work?

Regrettably, no I did not. You are right though, another blood test would better delve into this issue. Perhaps I should not base my results off one test and wait a few months to see where I'm at then, since I did feel fine before. School and practicals and my current long distance relationship are a big stressor for me. I am starting to reevaluate my situation, but the knowledge I've obtained from Ausinite and others on this issue is still noteworthy in my eyes. So many different angles and perspectives to look at one situation from the members of this forum. I appreciate the help from you guys!

 

[JimiThing]

Related, What are your views on Torem Jimi? The data I have read seems to make me think Torem might be an even better compound than Nolva to use along with Clomid. Your thoughts on that? Austin have you used Torem?

Torem definitely has the science backing it. Its an excellent serm with a better side effect profile than other serms and is very effective at inducing the production of endogenous test. The only piece that is missing, that probably will not be in time, is the real world data in the form of case studies, and the logged expereince of those using it for post cycle therapy (pct). I think its an excellent compound with tons of promise and would speculate it would be excellent in combo with clomid for a post cycle therapy (pct). Anecdotally in a dose of 120/60/60/60, however I just cant seem to not stick with the tried and true tamox/clomid combo. Perhaps next go round I'll give torem a try.

 

[juced_porkchop]

Torem definitely has the science backing it. Its an excellent serm with a better side effect profile than other serms and is very effective at inducing the production of endogenous test. The only piece that is missing, that probably will not be in time, is the real world data in the form of case studies, and the logged expereince of those using it for post cycle therapy (pct). I think its an excellent compound with tons of promise and would speculate it would be excellent in combo with clomid for a post cycle therapy (pct). Anecdotally in a dose of 120/60/60/60, however I just cant seem to not stick with the tried and true tamox/clomid combo. Perhaps next go round I'll give torem a try.

Awesome! Let us know if/when you do.
Yeah it doesn't seem to be that well known, yet what I have read makes it look possibly a lot better than Nolva/Tamox. I hope more give it a try and report back.

So another interesting type of compound Related to out topic of PCT.... PEPTIDES!

Now from research I have read along with people that have tried it, it seems adding some types of Peptides to your PCT may actually enhance recovery along with directly help keep on muscle mass during this time.

Thoughts on that Jimi?

 

[Frank White]

So realistically, someone on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) would more than likely have to up their weekly dose due to partial shutdown? Original dose wouldn't "cut it" anymore so to speak?

 

[Austin1]

Awesome!
Well I don't do PCT anymore (on TRT) BUT if i was going to use SERMS for say trying to have a baby it would be the combo of both. mostly clomid but with a little tamox/Nolva.
I have spoken to many and seen a lot of posted articles by scientists and "forum people" that agree with our views on having 2 SERMS to be more effective than just one.

Related, What are your views on Torem Jimi? The data I have read seems to make me think Torem might be an even better compound than Nolva to use along with Clomid. Your thoughts on that? Austin have you used Torem?

No experience yet with Torem. Certainly a very interesting compound though. I'll certainly tune-in if jimithing decides to give it a go. Torem was the last of the serms to be approved/introduced, so data is limited.

Raloxifene was the first and I strongly believe that soon, we will hear about new trials/developments with raloxifene. It's the oldest of the group with the most data available, but not data related to men, yet.

Today, Clomiphene remains the gold standard, with Tamoxifen as a very close second. They make a happy marriage in therapy, no doubt about that.

 

[jSalud]

Any thoughts on peptides in between cycles? The thought of losing gains haunts me at night.

 

[DreDay187]

Any thoughts on peptides in between cycles? The thought of losing gains haunts me at night.

Are you still within your genetic potential? Are your diet and training on point? If you answered yes, then losing gains won't be an issue.

 

[JimiThing]

No experience yet with Torem. Certainly a very interesting compound though. I'll certainly tune-in if jimithing decides to give it a go. Torem was the last of the serms to be approved/introduced, so data is limited.

Raloxifene was the first and I strongly believe that soon, we will hear about new trials/developments with raloxifene. It's the oldest of the group with the most data available, but not data related to men, yet.

Today, Clomiphene remains the gold standard, with Tamoxifen as a very close second. They make a happy marriage in therapy, no doubt about that.

Raloxifene is great for gyno but not so much for post cycle therapy (pct). While it does induce test production in studies it has only shown an increase in T levels in the twenty percents. This pales in comparison to clomid,tamox and torem so while is an awesome serm for gyno treatment it is my last choice for pct.

 

[DreDay187]

Raloxifene is great for gyno but not so much for post cycle therapy (pct). While it does induce test production in studies it has only shown an increase in T levels in the twenty percents. This pales in comparison to clomid,tamox and torem so while is an awesome serm for gyno treatment it is my last choice for pct.

Jimi, do you happen to have those references on hand or point me to where you found them? I'm curious to look into this more unless you have the time to explain it more in detail.