keep muscle gains after cycles

[Denn]

Hello everyone, I have a question for the more experience users.
Until today I did 4 mass cycle (1 cycle a year), very moderate dosages testosterone based, never exceeded 600 mg/week testosterone, 25 mg/day Dbol and 300 mg/week Deca, length of cycles maximum 10 weeks. Pct everytime with clomid.
I have a very ectomorph physical, very thin bones etc. I started from 1.84 x 65 kg and at the end of the last cycle I reached 85/87 kg.
This summer, out of cycle from months, I did a low-calorie diet for 3 weeks and have come down to 73 kg with about 12% body fat (during the cycles I think I had about 15% body fat because my mistake I ever ate so much but very dirty).

My next 10 weeks cycle this winter will be: 600 mg/w test e, 400 mg/w deca, 35 mg/day dbol for the first 5 weeks, adex 0.5 mg/day, hcg 500 ui/w throgout the entire cycle and finally pct with clomid.
In your opinion, this time, if I eat so much and very very clean (is this the trick, right?) proper pct ecc. how much muscle weight can I keep after cycle? Can I grow clean and eventually lose little gain after pct?
Is necessary in your opinion to do a maintenance cycle in the summer with low dosages? If yes, which type of cycle for maintenance? which drug?

 

[darkwing86]

After Pct you will alwys lose some weight . Most of that weight will be water weight . Maybe a little muscle . But if you pct properly you should be able to keep most of it , and that as long as you are eating enough to maintain your weight . If on cycle say u eat 4000 cals ... u gain weight and muscle , then after cycle you go back to say eating 3500 ... slowly u will lose weight , mass and size again . eat enough to maintain .

 

[halfwit]

The number one mistake I see guys make is that they go on a drastic cut during/right after PCT. As long as you're not drastically above what your natural testosterone can support, eating enough to maintain will help a great deal. You will ALWAYS lose some mass (I do, and I'm on TRT), but a good portion can be maintained if you eat to keep it.

My .02c

 

[Denn]

Thanks for replies guys.
Ok next time I will eat a lot after pct for many months to maintain most of gain and lose minimum.
In your opinion, it's ok to do a moderate 8 week cycle (for example primobolan/winstrol) 3 months after mass cycle to maintain gains easily? or it is not necessary? Actually I do a mass cycle a year only.

 

[Mountain-Man]

I do trt it helps but I'm 40'Nd need trt

 

[darkwing86]

Start of with some stats first . How old are you , weight , height , years training . U can always choose to do a "cut" cycle if you choose . Time on = time off with cycling . If u cycle 3 months , u take 3 off before another . Cutting is realy a matter of your calories , and not the anabolics you are taking , unless you are competing and wanting to get very low single digits .

 

[e92]

cycling steroids is the dumbest possible thing unless you're doing it for single specific event and you need to grow into that condition. but using it as an accelerator for gains, and then coming off is so retarded. you'll keep maybe 5lbs of muscle and look like a disproportionate deflated balloon.

like i'll tell anyone: if you cant commit to the possibility of being on steroids (TRT) for the rest of your life, dont even bother touching the stuff

 

[weavy88]

cycling steroids is the dumbest possible thing unless you're doing it for single specific event and you need to grow into that condition. but using it as an accelerator for gains, and then coming off is so retarded. you'll keep maybe 5lbs of muscle and look like a disproportionate deflated balloon.

like i'll tell anyone: if you cant commit to the possibility of being on steroids (TRT) for the rest of your life, dont even bother touching the stuff

Couldn't of said better myself. This is not something I wanted to believe at first, but couldn't be more true. You can't keep squat beyond what you can maintain naturally.

 

[Denn]

Sorry, but my experience is different from what you say.
Today I keep a total of minimum 8 kg of pure muscle from the starting condition before the first cycle, and this without trt, only with adequate pct after each cycle.
My goal is to get minimum 15/18 kg of muscle gain definitively, over the years.
This is a site where we talk about steroids, I don't need moral opinions about the use of steroids or not, just wondering tips on keeping as much as possible the gains, and I think that's the main concern of all users.

 

[Denn]

yes I know that cutting depends on calories level and not on the stuff, but with a moderate cycle and low calories diet I can retain more muscle than low calories diet and no stuff, right? In this case, can I do a light testosterone cycle in 250 mg/week dosage? or for this purpose are Primobolan, winstrol (and other dht derivates) better?

 

[Denn]

Start of with some stats first . How old are you , weight , height , years training . U can always choose to do a "cut" cycle if you choose . Time on = time off with cycling . If u cycle 3 months , u take 3 off before another . Cutting is realy a matter of your calories , and not the anabolics you are taking , unless you are competing and wanting to get very low single digits .

yes I know that cutting depends on calories level and not on the stuff, but with a moderate cycle and low calories diet I can retain more muscle than low calories diet and no stuff, right? In this case, can I do a light testosterone cycle in 250 mg/week dosage? or for this purpose are Primobolan, winstrol (and other dht derivates) better?

 

[halfwit]

Sorry, but my experience is different from what you say.
Today I keep a total of minimum 8 kg of pure muscle from the starting condition before the first cycle, and this without trt, only with adequate pct after each cycle.
My goal is to get minimum 15/18 kg of muscle gain definitively, over the years.
This is a site where we talk about steroids, I don't need moral opinions about the use of steroids or not, just wondering tips on keeping as much as possible the gains, and I think that's the main concern of all users.

Sorry bud, but the "moral" anecdotes aren't about morality, more about making sure know what they're getting into. A better informed user will always have a better experience, and represent the community in a better light. It's the folks that jump in with zero understanding that make us all look bad to the outside; which further decreases our social value as a whole. AAS can be very safe, but only if people are educated. Hope that makes sense to you.

I'm very curious how you gained almost 18lbs of lean mass in a single cycle. There's "noob gains", but I suspect that you were underweight to begin with if those numbers are real. I'm more than happy if I can put on 5lbs of lean mass (NOT water/fat/glycogen) in a single cycle, but I've been at this for awhile.

To answer your question about a "short 8 week cycle"; not only are you lacking testosterone in that cycle, which is needed by the male body, but it would keep you shut down the entire time - making recovery less likely.

 

[Denn]

Sorry bud, but the "moral" anecdotes aren't about morality, more about making sure know what they're getting into. A better informed user will always have a better experience, and represent the community in a better light. It's the folks that jump in with zero understanding that make us all look bad to the outside; which further decreases our social value as a whole. AAS can be very safe, but only if people are educated. Hope that makes sense to you.

I'm very curious how you gained almost 18lbs of lean mass in a single cycle. There's "noob gains", but I suspect that you were underweight to begin with if those numbers are real. I'm more than happy if I can put on 5lbs of lean mass (NOT water/fat/glycogen) in a single cycle, but I've been at this for awhile.

To answer your question about a "short 8 week cycle"; not only are you lacking testosterone in that cycle, which is needed by the male body, but it would keep you shut down the entire time - making recovery less likely.

Ok all clear...It is for the reasons that you say I have done lots of research and I continue do them now... in my previous thread I said that I gained 8 kg of lean mass in about 4 cycles (4-5 years) not in one...anyway yes, I started underweight (64/65 kg x 1.83 cm), very thin physique, absolutly ectomorph, very thin bones etc. but I'm 1.83 cm height, so tath my goal is to reach minimum 83/85 kg of permanent weight, in long term.
Ok, so, do you think I should do a low dose of testosterone for maintenance? is 250 mg a week of test e enough for the purpose?

 

[darkwing86]

Denn you do realize that when u take testosterone u are shutting yourself down ? And to add to that any steroid will shutdown your natural test production . 250mg of test for some is a TRT dosage . Depending where your levels are at , that's dose can bump you up a bit and make u a little gains over time , but remember , when u come off , gains from that probably wont be worthwhile . In my opinion if im going to be down ill be down and try to make as much muscle as possible with moderate doses. I realy dont think aas is the answer for you man . whats your weight at now ? Im sure with proper diet you can put on alot more weight and muscle naturally without risk and keep the option available to you to "push further" in the future if you still want to .Do a nice natural slow cut by decreasing calories slowly and you shouldn't lose any muscle . You definetly wont make any on a cut and on low doses

 

[Denn]

Denn you do realize that when u take testosterone u are shutting yourself down ? And to add to that any steroid will shutdown your natural test production . 250mg of test for some is a TRT dosage . Depending where your levels are at , that's dose can bump you up a bit and make u a little gains over time , but remember , when u come off , gains from that probably wont be worthwhile . In my opinion if im going to be down ill be down and try to make as much muscle as possible with moderate doses. I realy dont think aas is the answer for you man . whats your weight at now ? Im sure with proper diet you can put on alot more weight and muscle naturally without risk and keep the option available to you to "push further" in the future if you still want to .Do a nice natural slow cut by decreasing calories slowly and you shouldn't lose any muscle . You definetly wont make any on a cut and on low doses

from the answers that you give me, I realize that you don't understand what I mean, or I am confusing to explain: of course I know that testosterone suppresses endogenous my, obvious .. but other than that, I started with aas because after 6 years of hard training in gym, perfect diet, proper lifestyle etc. I have not even gained 2 kg of muscle, from this my decision to use aas, you know?therefore, if your answer is that I have to eat more than likely you're not understanding what I mean...

 

[darkwing86]

We would be able to help you more if we knew your stats . What is your age , weight , height , years training ? Have you ever gone for bloodwork to see where your natural testosterone levels are at ?

 

[Denn]

I'm 28 years old, 1.83 cm height, 74 kg weight with 11 % bodyfat, about 9 years training.. yes in my last bloodwork my test level was 5.80 (range 2.30 - 8.50) after stop clomid

 

[cybrsage]

Agreed with needing your stats to help you properly.

Also, it is always advisable to do a maintenance "cycle" after any bulking or cutting cycle. The body loves to be in homeostasis (steady state, no changes). If you finish a bulk and go right into a cut, for example, your body will say "of good, we are going to return to where we were before that last change, I will work hard to put us back there" and you will lose a lot of your gains. If you run a month or two of maintenance, which means keep your calories where they are and keep your workout, etc., the same, the body will learn that this new state is the preferred state. Then, when you DO cut, it will try to keep all the muscle it can keep since that is the new steady state condition.

The body is an amazing machine, but one that can be taught.

 

[darkwing86]

Honest man i dont want to stir anything up or play detective here , but this is why we ask about stats . At about 6 feet tall and 163 lb and test ranges seeming fine , there should be no reason you shouldnt be able to build more muscle naturally unless your diet isnt on point .And 9 years training ? consistently ? something seems off . In the end its your choice , but id have to say you are way below your genetic potential .

 

[Denn]

ok, thanks for your opinion!