Keeping Gains....

[ECKSRATED]

LOL. As much as I'd love to go back and forth with you on this topic I should probably refrain, but what the hell? You are completely full of shit if your claim is that you keep 15 of the 20 pounds of "muscle" you gain on a cycle. That of course implies we're talking about "muscle" and not fat.

That said it isn't too uncommon for people to make these outrageous claims online. Most people like yourself tend to exaggerate quite a bit. Usually the ones that talk the most never post pics; they just talk out their ass. Hey, how about a pic to go along with your claims? If you keep 15 pounds of muscle on each cycle and assuming you've been cycling for 10+ years you should be pushing 300 pounds and ripped. Let's see it.

First off I was using those numbers as an example dick lick. And I don't need to post pictures of myself up on a forum to prove anything to anyone. I know what I do and what I gain from my cycles. I've done two cycles and I'm 214 with no fucking fat at all at 5 8'.

Your the dumb fuck that doesn't know how to train or keep shit after a cycle. The things that you are saying are just retarded and if they were true no one would touch steroids.

 

[ECKSRATED]

BS! If you use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) while on cycle and eat right and train right most of what you gain will be muscle. If you run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) or IGF while on cycle you will recover pretty quick. It's possible to keep more than 80% of your gains with standard PCt. I do agree it's easier to keep gains when the cycle is long.

Exactly!!!!

Even if u run test for ever at a certain dose your gains will stop UNLESS YOU INCREASE YOUR FOOD INTAKE!!! bodybuilding is all about food not steroids. Steroids assist and that's it.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

I suppose if someone didn't build any foundation before they started AAS, then maybe they would see a more severe loss of their gains, but I gained 70 lbs of muscle over 5 years before I ever touched an anabolic agent. I can tell you that I have never lost more than 5 lbs after a cycle. I've had cycles where I gained 20 lbs, and ones where I gained 10-12, depending on what was used and at what dosage. I knew I would lose some water weight, but never "most" of the gains. A cycle followed by proper post cycle therapy (pct), diet, and training on a body with a muscular foundation should build solid muscle. And before you accuse me of "cruising" on gear, I've done less than a dozen cycles in a 22 year period.

Juice Authority? I don't think so.

This is a very good point (bolds). Let me address that before delving into the rest. It is very possible to make excellent gains without AAS when you're in your early 20s by training hard and eating right.

Problem is most people don't wait until they reach their genetic peak before starting AAS. The vast majority start well before that point, which is exacerbated by the proliferation of these online communities coupled with the fact AAS is so easy to obtain. The temptation to use AAS at a young age is made even worse by the media and the DEA demonizing it.

They see Barry Bonds and others being dragged before the Senate Committee for AAS use and it makes it more attractive to them because it must work if all these professional ball players are using it. AAS use in high schools is worse today then it was before it was a scheduled and controlled substance by Papa Bush in 1991.

I do however find it hard to believe you're not cruising in-between cycles given your cycling history along with the claim you've never lost more than 5 pounds post cycle. Maybe you are, maybe you're not.

Let's do the math....70 pounds of muscle gain natural + an average of say 10-15 pounds x 10 cycles (you said less than a dozen) = 100-150 pounds of anabolically enhanced muscle gain. That's approx 220 pounds of muscle gain + original bodyweight of (let's be conservative) say 150 = 370 pounds. Yeah, I ain't buying it.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

First off I was using those numbers as an example dick lick. And I don't need to post pictures of myself up on a forum to prove anything to anyone. I know what I do and what I gain from my cycles. I've done two cycles and I'm 214 with no fucking fat at all at 5 8'.

Your the dumb fuck that doesn't know how to train or keep shit after a cycle. The things that you are saying are just retarded and if they were true no one would touch steroids.

Bolds...Reason being you're full of shit. Oh, I know how to train and use AAS. I use (not abuse) AAS to maintain a healthy lifestyle and stay lean. You?

 

[JuiceAuthority]

BS! If you use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) while on cycle and eat right and train right most of what you gain will be muscle. If you run Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) or IGF while on cycle you will recover pretty quick. It's possible to keep more than 80% of your gains with standard PCt. I do agree it's easier to keep gains when the cycle is long.

Not always. An Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is important and frankly necessary to keep estro levels in check - too much or too little estrogen causes a myriad of issues that would take quite a few paragraphs to fully explain. That said estrogen is crucial to muscular development plus it lubes the joints. Estrogen also has a greater influence on libido than Test. That's why letro kills your dick. It's a tough balancing act and not a perfect science.

hCG on the other hand supposedly prepares the testis for PCT but the real reason people run hCG on-cycle is for cosmetic reasons to prevent shrinkage. Here's the problem with running hCG. hCG desensitization does occur with prolonged administration. It also stimulates estradiol and progesterone production. Interestingly enough estradiol rise occurs before the T rise, which can and does aggravate gyno since it binds directly to the ER and PR = double edge sword.

 

[zepplin92]

The truth of the matter is you actually lose MOST of your gains when you go off. If you net 5-8 pounds consider yourself lucky. Cycling on and off is a perpetual game of "catch up" regardless of your PCT regimen. After the esters clear you're crashed. PCT is really meant to kickstart HPTA recovery. A full recovery usually takes months, sometimes longer depending on the compounds used (i.e. Tren and Deca). As you get older you're worse off after a cycle than you were before since recovery takes even longer. People don't like to acknowledge this but it is a fact. How do you keep your gains? You don't unless you reduce your dose and cruise. The obvious downside to that is you never come off. As the poster above stated the body seeks to reach its homeostasis point. The only way to change the homeostasis point is stay on extended cycles.

Lol, are you fucking retarded?

Please exit the forums, most of your posts ITT have been complete crap, your obviously a prime example of someone who doesn't know how to properly recovery from a cycle.

Pls go.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

Lol, are you fucking retarded?

Please exit the forums, most of your posts ITT have been complete crap, your obviously a prime example of someone who doesn't know how to properly recovery from a cycle.

Pls go.

Been on the forums for 10+ years, Mod of many, but that's neither here nor there. Good night guys. Wifey is getting pissed.

 

[ECKSRATED]

Bolds...Reason being you're full of shit. Oh, I know how to train and use AAS. I use (not abuse) AAS to maintain a healthy lifestyle and stay lean. You?

Me? Why are u so concerned about me? Your the one who can't keep gains after a cycle so u choose to just stay on forever. What am I full of shit about? Cus I don't wanna stand in front of a camera and flex my muscles so people like u can look at them??

And how is shutting down your natural test forever a healthy lifestyle? You may feel better now but in the long run your hurting yourself. I take atleast 6 months between my 12 week cycles and let my natural hormones recover. And during that time I maintain my weight with FOOD.
I don't know how long u have been on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) but you can not base your opinions on your experiences because when you come off your testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose you have absolutely no natural test in your body. I do. which means I can keep and even make natural gains, which I do.
Anyways, u have proved that you and people like u give AAS a bad rap.

 

[RJ]

I maintain around 5-6% BF year-round.

there it is. another guy who walks around at 5% BF. Sorry dumbass but you ain't doing that. Not unless you're some scrawny fuck.

 

[ECKSRATED]

there it is. another guy who walks around at 5% BF. Sorry dumbass but you ain't doing that. Not unless you're some scrawny fuck.

RJ don't fuck with this guy he thinks he's fuckin Bill Nye The Science Guy. Not only does he know everything but he's also the most ripped guy on the planet. I wanna be just like him when I grow up.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

there it is. another guy who walks around at 5% BF. Sorry dumbass but you ain't doing that. Not unless you're some scrawny fuck.

Here's the deal. I'll be 38 in May, and to be completely honest, I have a small head relative to my body. I'm currently 5'10 and 215 (much heavier than normal). I recently blew up to 228 and my cardio took a nosedive (cardiovascular health is very important to me).

My ideal weight is between 205-210. That's when I look and feel the best. I don't do "Big Boy" cycles because I don't like the way I feel. 750mgs/wk of Test stacked with 300-450mgs/wk of Deca is all I need (that would be a "blast" for me). That's more than enough for me to make solid and consistent gains while maintaining a low BF% (waistline fluctuates between 30"-32").

Orals and "kickstarts" are pointless to me. I believe in letting the body play "catch up", which is why I prefer long acting esters. Overloading the body with androgens from the start causes a plateau 7-8 weeks into a cycle where you have to either stack more drugs or increase your dose. No thanks.

The best time to add an oral is 4-5 weeks into a cycle when the test has fully kicked in. However, the gains made on compounds like dbol and drol dissipate as quickly as they're made. That said I use them in short spurts to break through plateaus when my ego is craving more short term strength. I also run Winstrol (winny) for progesterone blockage from Deca but Vitamin B6 works just as well if not better for that purpose. I've yet to use an oral that didn't cause painful back pumps (dbol and drol being the worse).

 

[UserAt204]

I call bullshit on the juice authority. B U L L S H I T. End of story.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

Me? Why are u so concerned about me? Your the one who can't keep gains after a cycle so u choose to just stay on forever. What am I full of shit about? Cus I don't wanna stand in front of a camera and flex my muscles so people like u can look at them??

And how is shutting down your natural test forever a healthy lifestyle? You may feel better now but in the long run your hurting yourself. I take atleast 6 months between my 12 week cycles and let my natural hormones recover. And during that time I maintain my weight with FOOD.
I don't know how long u have been on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) but you can not base your opinions on your experiences because when you come off your testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) dose you have absolutely no natural test in your body. I do. which means I can keep and even make natural gains, which I do.
Anyways, u have proved that you and people like u give AAS a bad rap.

TRT has been a blessing for me (thank God I found an informed and educated doctor). I tried several times, using many different protocols to restore my HPTA and the best I was able to do was 171ng (when you're below 300ng you're a testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) candidate).

It happens after years of cycling using the "proper" PCT regimen and getting post cycle bloodwork (over the last 10yrs the "proper" PCT regimen has changed forms many times). Time on = time off + PCT is not a foolproof solution as many will have you believe.

You never know once you cross the line to the point of no return until you're there and it sucks. You can only trick the body so many times until you reach the point where no PCT regimen will work to restore HPTA. Prior to that, each recovery took longer and a greater toll. I even started using HMG with hCG as the esters were clearing before starting with the SERMS. I tried Tore since it's supposed to be "superior" to Nolva being a second generation SERM, blah, blah, blah. Nada. When you mess with hormones over a prolonged period of time this is the inevitable result.

 

[burlyman]

This is a very good point (bolds). Let me address that before delving into the rest. It is very possible to make excellent gains without AAS when you're in your early 20s by training hard and eating right.

Problem is most people don't wait until they reach their genetic peak before starting AAS. The vast majority start well before that point, which is exacerbated by the proliferation of these online communities coupled with the fact AAS is so easy to obtain. The temptation to use AAS at a young age is made even worse by the media and the DEA demonizing it.

They see Barry Bonds and others being dragged before the Senate Committee for AAS use and it makes it more attractive to them because it must work if all these professional ball players are using it. AAS use in high schools is worse today then it was before it was a scheduled and controlled substance by Papa Bush in 1991.

I do however find it hard to believe you're not cruising in-between cycles given your cycling history along with the claim you've never lost more than 5 pounds post cycle. Maybe you are, maybe you're not.

Let's do the math....70 pounds of muscle gain natural + an average of say 10-15 pounds x 10 cycles (you said less than a dozen) = 100-150 pounds of anabolically enhanced muscle gain. That's approx 220 pounds of muscle gain + original bodyweight of (let's be conservative) say 150 = 370 pounds. Yeah, I ain't buying it.

Made a reply to this post earlier, but system sent it to mods for approval first. I don't know why. Your math is off for a few reasons: A) As a competitive BBer half my cycles were for cutting and simply maintaining muscle, B) My starting bodyweight was only 90 lbs (go ahead and laugh everyone), and C) I did a Levrone shrinkage trick when I stopped training and began skipping meals for a period of 10 or so years, losing 50+ lbs. In the last year I've gained 40 back, though not as lean (quite a bit older now). 20 of those were natural, the last 20 were assisted with 2 cycles, 9 months apart, and I maintained all but 2-4 lbs of each cycle.

So instead of calling BS on me, maybe you should know all the facts before making that judgement.

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

Not always. An Aromatase inhibitor (AI) is important and frankly necessary to keep estro levels in check - too much or too little estrogen causes a myriad of issues.

hCG on the other hand supposedly prepares the testis for PCT but the real reason people run hCG on-cycle is for cosmetic reasons

to prevent shrinkage.

Here's the problem with running hCG. hCG desensitization does occur with prolonged administration.

Ok so you almost get it. The reasons to use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (letro is a good choice ) are to keep the water weight off and to avoid the side effects of increased estrogen production.
High blood pressure and weight loss due to water loss are avoided.

HCG can be administered at 5000iu's a day forever. Your myth of desensitization is just a myth. I personally spoke to an endocrinologist about it.

The real reason to take Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) while on cycle is to maintain the testicle size so they are ready to start producing Testosterone when FSH ( Clomid helps to this end ) is introduced.

IGF-1 used while on cycle Preserves the HTPA . So you aren't shut down at all.


My last cycle was 6 years or more ago and I held the same weight after that cycle for 5 years till I started testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). THen I put on 25 pounds. I wish I was what I weighed before I ever cycled. I was pretty ripped. I waited till I was 30 to run a cycle. My body was a machine. I hit the limits of my body before I cycled.

TRT is the smart way to go.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

Ok so you almost get it. The reasons to use an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) (letro is a good choice ) are to keep the water weight off and to avoid the side effects of increased estrogen production.
High blood pressure and weight loss due to water loss are avoided.

HCG can be administered at 5000iu's a day forever. Your myth of desensitization is just a myth. I personally spoke to an endocrinologist about it.

The real reason to take HCG while on cycle is to maintain the testicle size so they are ready to start producing Testosterone when FSH ( Clomid helps to this end ) is introduced.

IGF-1 used while on cycle Preserves the HTPA . So you aren't shut down at all.

Yes, I'm very familiar with the Great Dr. Scally since that's who you're likely referencing. He too believes that hCG doesn't cause desensitization. Dr. Scally has changed his "position" on this topic many many times throughout the years. It's hard to keep up. I'll go by the clinical studies that state otherwise.

I am appreciative of the qualifications of my posts by others so as to not take my writing out of context. But, it is clear from posts that many believe that hCG desensitization occurs at levels over 500 IU. Even though Crisler does qualify his statement as pointed out, the inference is that doses higher than what he advocates will cause desensitization. He is wrong. Further, I find his grasp and understanding of the literature to be wanting. And that is putting it kindly.

hCG desensitization does occur in cases of prolonged administration of 5,000 IU (Five Thousand). But, even here it is not a given and does not occur often and consistently. I am in total agreement with the immediate posts that this problem is almost never observed in clinical practice. Why the continued worry and hype about this problem is beyond me, but possibly Crisler helps feed this false idea.

I also agree with an earlier post in this threads that the two studies mention do nothing to support or demonstrate desensitization or the use of 250 IU X2 as useful therapy. If you really think about it, what is the purpose of the hCG two days in a row. This is totally and completely bizarre. As before, I challenge anyone to provide literature (article or citations) in support of his treatment(s). If Crisler is so sure of himself, why does he not cite support for the therapy or better publish the treatment. I have a simple answer - it is all in his head.

In the spirit of not repeating myself too much, I will repost some of the information from prior posts on this hCG question.

The study referenced, ***65533;Coviello AD et al., (2005), Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 May;90(5):2595-602,***65533; will give some insight to the current hCG regimen that some of the forum members currently use with their TRT!!!

First, this is a study on intratesticular testosterone (ITT). The participants in this study were treated with T enanthate (TE), 200 mg im weekly, for rapid gonadotropin suppression in conjunction with a variable dose of hCG, delivered sc every other day for 3 wk: 0 (saline placebo), 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG. The placebo group served as the control group. [Note: Do you see a difference already! Even though the study does bot support Crisler, the dosing is much different.]

So, what we have are male subjects with elevated T levels due to exogenous T enanthate. Their endogenous production of T is completely suppressed (theoretically) as are their gonadotropins. ITT is suppressed due to the inhibition of gonadotropins from the exogenous T enanthate.

They found that each dose of hCG (125, 250, and 500 IU) returned the ITT concentration to normal. The data set being measured was not serum T, it was ITT. This should alert one to the stupidity of the research design. This was a waste of resources, in my opinion. The very simple reason is that in a normal male with a normal serum T their ITT will be ***65533;normal.***65533; All this study did was take a normal male and replace his T with exogenous T and than give hCG which replaced his LH. Duh ***65533;

The one saving grace for the study is that it will be instructive to those using low dose hCG with their testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). It does tell us something about hCG therapy while on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). I mentioned above that if one is going to use hCG while on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) they should have something to observe, measure, and document. Why? If you are taking a drug, any drug, and do not have a dataset to monitor the effect of the drug you need to seriously think about what you are doing. I would ask them when did you decide to relinquish the control of your body?

It would be of interest to look at the data on serum T changes with each hCG dose . The subjects are on T enanthate so this is very similar to those on hCG with testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). The finding is that the dose of hCG 125 IU every other day had NO effect on the serum T. The two higher doses did raise the serum T levels above normal. [Note: recall the dosing schedule!!!]

There is no individual data (always a cause for suspicion when reviewing literature) and there are no significance levels. Visual inspection of the graph, however, shows that the serum T level was not significantly different from control until day 21. If I was administering hCG less frequently than every other day and had no dataset to monitor I would be concerned.

Posters will do what they wish regardless of the literature. I respect that, particularly if someone feels they are getting a clinical response. I have treated over a 1000 patients for AIH and more for testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). I did take the effort to research the treatments. And when I did develop a treatment for AIH, I published and presented the findings. I just happen to be skeptical of others who tout therapies based on their experience that has no basis in the literature. Further, they are treating patients as guinea pigs!

The following downloads are for the above article and another studying hCG administration, including "desensitization."

 

[Dreaded Pirate Roberts]

Yes, I'm very familiar with the Great Dr. Scally since that's who you're likely referencing. He too believes that hCG doesn't cause desensitization. Dr. Scally has changed his "position" on this topic many many times throughout the years. It's hard to keep up. I'll go by the clinical studies that state otherwise.

No I'm not a fan of Dr Scally's I talked to my Dr. There are people what have been taking HCG fro years ad years at high doses with out any problems.

You noted 750mg of Test a week at you weight you shouldn't ever need more than 550 mg. The truth is your body can't use more than that.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

No I'm not a fan of Dr Scally's I talked to my Dr. There are people what have been taking HCG fro years ad years at high doses with out any problems.

You noted 750mg of Test a week at you weight you shouldn't ever need more than 550 mg. The truth is your body can't use more than that.

750mgs is the most I go. The body is full of receptor sites and while most also think receptor downgrade is a also myth I believe it to be true, but that's a separate topic. One of the known target genes of AR activation is IGF-1, which speaks to your earlier point.

Free test (the one that matters) is difficult to measure and not always accurate on blood work. Only a small fraction (1-4%) is unbound and biologically active and able to enter a cell and activate its receptor. Most test is bound to SHBG. That's the problem. How much or how little the body can actually use depends on several factors. You can take drugs like Proviron or even Masteron to lower SHBG but I think that's largely theoretical. The best way to increase free test is more test.

 

[DADAWG]

750mgs is the most I go. The body is full of receptor sites and while most also think receptor downgrade is a also myth I believe it to be true, but that's a separate topic. One of the known target genes of AR activation is IGF-1, which speaks to your earlier point.

Free test (the one that matters) is difficult to measure and not always accurate on blood work. Only a small fraction (1-4%) is unbound and biologically active and able to enter a cell and activate its receptor. Most test is bound to SHBG. That's the problem. How much or how little the body can actually use depends on several factors. You can take drugs like Proviron or even Masteron to lower SHBG but I think that's largely theoretical. The best way to increase free test is more test.

use less test and throw in proviron or masteron to lower shbg.

 

[JuiceAuthority]

use less test and throw in proviron or masteron to lower shbg.

I've tried that route several times and I'm just not convinced proviron lowers SHGB enough to justify its use or cost. I know what the drug profiles suggest, but Proviron often is touted as this "wonder" drug and many people rely on it for all sorts of reasons.

They'll read that proviron can be used in lieu of an Aromatase inhibitor (AI) for estro control because of its so-called ant-estrogenic properties, that it enhances the anabolic action of testosterone, strengthens libido, and all sorts of other "claims", even for ADHD patients and depression.

There's a reason it's not approved in the US. It does however have the CE Mark in Europe. It is said to have a greater affinity for binding to SHGB than any other compound, which in theory, prevents other AAS from binding to it. This is all "bro-science" and hasn't been proven in the clinic. If so, it would be used in conjunction with testosterone for Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) patients.

"In one randomized, double-blind 4-week trial, 38 dysthymic men were administered 75mg daily. Itil & Colleagues reported an improvement of symptoms which included anxiety, lack of drive and desire. Next, they administered a high dose (450mg/day) or placebo in a 6-week randomized trial of 52 men with a mean age of 40 years, suffering from dysthymia, unipolar and bipolar depression. Both the mesterolone and placebo groups improved significantly and there were no statistically significant differences between the two groups. In this series of studies mesterolone lead to a significant decrease in LH and testosterone levels. This is probably as a result of the extremely high dose used. In another, 100mg mesterolone cipionate was administered twice monthly. With regards to plasma T levels, there was no difference between the treated vs untreated group, and baseline LH levels were minimally affected.[1]"

Proviron is a relatively weak androgen and rarely used for hormone replacement therapies.