i was in the max muscle store the other day and there was a skinny guy there asking about thoes products. the guy that works there was selling him on the product (big suprise). he had nothing but great things to say about the tren at least. but honestly i have not ever seen a product live up to what its supposed to do that you buy over the counter, witht he exception of creatine. most would agree that dollar for dollar youre better off going with more food as opposed to anything in a pill. and food, mind you, is the most potent anabolic there is legally. save your money, most,if not all of the products on the market are pure crap. just read the lable, do a search, and you'll see- pure crap