Nolva vs. Clomid for PCT

[clsmth700]

dude you first response talks about nuts returning to normal size so that pct can work

AGAIN its not necessarily about them returning to size ... it is about the hpta no longer receiving message that there is exogenous testosterone/hormones

HCG for PCT may not be your school of thought but for many many others it is

PS half of your description of clomid is for usage in women? do you think you are the only one that knows how to use google and cut and paste?

do you think a laptop and cut and paste makes you some kind of scholar ? or an endo?

you are the one that initially disagreed with me and inferred i was wrong and you were the gatekeeper of PCT knowledge in your little "nuts returning to normal size" post - that is very poor

i gave a brief but sound explanation for OP , you should of simply added to what i was saying if you wanted to elaborate about PCT

the OP question about suppressive compounds didnt warrant much more info than i gave in first
place.

ALL I WAS SAYING TO OP IS THAT STARTING PCT TOO SOON WHILE YOU STILL HAVE SUPPRESSIVE EFFECTS OF GEAR CAN PROLONG RECOVERY TIME WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING

 

[clsmth700]

in the meanwhile

oh yeah... human grade

 

[DreDay187]

dude you first response talks about nuts returning to normal size so that pct can work

normal size so PCT will be effective yes

AGAIN its not necessarily about them returning to size ... it is about the hpta no longer receiving message that there is exogenous testosterone/hormones

and you said "starting PCT too early will cause further suppression. SERM's aren't suppressive. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is suppressive at the level of the pituitary but that's one reason why its best ran on cycle not in PCT.

HCG for PCT may not be your school of thought but for many many others it is

And I'm trying to get many many others to see the error of their ways. Not only is Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) suppressive which is counterintuitive to what you want to do in post cycle therapy (pct), blasting it also increases intra-testicular E2 which most AI's will do nothing for. Running it at mild/moderate doses during cycle means you don't have to risk the side effects of blasting it post cycle, you still get the benefits of HCG, you take preventative measures instead of reactionary measures, and is the wisest all around choice

PS half of your description of clomid is for usage in women? do you think you are the only one that knows how to use google and cut and paste?

and your point is? The second half was regarding males. It wasn't google it was actually Anabolics 10th Ed by William Llewellyn, you know, someone smart and stuff, someone that actually knows what they're talking about...stop being so defensive and you may actually learn a thing or two here

do you think a laptop and cut and paste makes you some kind of scholar ? or an endo?

I think researching and citing the sources of my information backs up my points nicely. Dont you think trying to call me out for backing up and referencing facts is a little butthurt of you considering you're just blabbering now and not adding anything worthwhile to the discussion. You've yet to cite a single source that backs up your ridiculous claim either. Im not an Endo no, but I do know quite a few of them

you are the one that initially disagreed with me and inferred i was wrong and you were the gatekeeper of PCT knowledge in your little "nuts returning to normal size" post - that is very poor

i didn't just disagree with you, I flat out said you're wrong on the bolded part. Now you're getting a little too emotional over being told you're wrong and having a reference to back that up. Now that I'm a gatekeeper of PCT knowledge I couldn't care less what you believe to be poor, I'm the motherfucking gatekeeper!!!!

i gave a brief but sound explanation for OP , you should of simply added to what i was saying if you wanted to elaborate about PCT

i didn't want to add to wrong information. Again, I'm not saying your whole explanation is wrong, you do have some correct points that I haven't taken away from, but you also have some points way off base which I hope anyone reading is able to see through

the OP question about suppressive compounds didnt warrant much more info than i gave in first
place.

clomid and Nolva are NOT suppressive so it warranted clarification

ALL I WAS SAYING TO OP IS THAT STARTING PCT TOO SOON WHILE YOU STILL HAVE SUPPRESSIVE EFFECTS OF GEAR CAN PROLONG RECOVERY TIME WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING

^^^that is still false. It won't prolong long recovery time anymore than it would already take. Starting PCT too soon will not have an adverse effect on recovery it will have no effect on recovery. The way you worded that implies starting PCT too soon is actually worse for you, no its not worse and wont magically extend your time being suppressed, it just won't have the same effect at restoring the HPTA.

At the risk of being called a copy and past monkey, an endo more knowledgable than yourself, or the gatekeeper to all that is kosher in the world, I've decided to include more references backing my claim. These are not from google, I know I know don't cry, they are from Anabolics 10th Ed. (a great text if you'd like to actually educate yourself).

“The timing for a Post-Cycle Therapy program can be as important as its composition. If it is initiated too late, valuable days of normal hormone levels (and also some muscle mass) may be lost. If you start the program too early, you may miss the optimal window of effectiveness.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.

^^^explain to me where you get "further suppression" from "you may miss the optimal window of effectiveness"???

The above study suggests that one of the first things to happen after steroid cessation is that the brain recognizes testosterone levels are low again. This will cause GnRH and LH levels begin correcting fairly quickly. The substantial delay between this and an increase in testosterone levels is caused largely by testicular unresponsiveness to luteinizing hormone. After months of receiving extremely weak stimulation, they will have lost a substantial amount of mass (atrophied). This is a well-documented side effect of anabolic steroid use, even if a size difference may not be immediately visible in all cases. When LH levels begin surging back, the testes will initially be unable to handle the workload. This is expected to correct itself in time, but it may take many weeks for the testes to slowly restore to their original mass. With a good portion of the post-cycle recovery period “actually being characterized by normal (even high) levels of LH, we must address recovery broadly if we expect it to be effective.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.

Check and mate. It looks like I'm not the only one overly obsessed with size buddy . Hmmmmm one of the world's leading and forefront authorities on AAS says the same thing. Imagine that. Maybe he got it from the gatekeeper though, that blasted fellow can't be trusted now can he. Now if reading comprehension fails you, I'll paraphrase in a manner you can keep up with:

Waiting for the ester to clear is necessary before endogenous production can begin again at the hypothalamus and pituitary level. But this is only half the picture. So long as the testes are atrophied, the hypothalamus can make GnRH which the pituitary receives to make LH but THE TESTES CANNOT USE LH TO MAKE TESTOSTERONE WHEN THEY ARE ATROPHIED. Is that finally clear or is this another cut and paste job? I'm getting a little tired defending my cut and paste jobs to someone that can't even reference a source to back up a single thing they've said. Consider this an education in debate, back up your claims. The onus is on you since you made the initial claim and you've done nothing to defend your stance besides taking pot shots at the man trying to teach you something.

“Testicular atrophy is caused by a lack of LH stimulation, and likewise recovery is function of increased LH. The objective with hCG is to maximize stimulation of the testes so their original mass is recovered more quickly than if we relied solely on physiological LH production.”

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.

^^^oh look, another quote about teste size, I've got to tell that William Llewellyn fellow that even if he is one of the most educated people on earth about AAS, he can't keep talking about testicular atrophy or size or he risks being called obsessed by Clsmth700 on Steroidology.

“Anti-Estrogens in PCT

The anti-estrogenic drugs Clomid (clomiphene citrate) and Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate) are also commonly used during the post-cycle period. These drugs are used to block the negative feedback inhibition of estrogen, which occurs primarily at the hypothalamus.356 This may foster the heightened release of GnRH, and subsequently LH and testosterone. While estrogen levels are not especially high in men, it is still a very strong inhibitor of testosterone release.357 Since it is also formed from the aromatization of testosterone in peripheral tissues, its role in the regulation of androgen biosynthesis is regarded as a fairly direct one. The purpose of using anti-estrogens is to both trigger correction in LH levels more quickly, and to augment total LH. They may also be necessary to combat gynecomastia in some individuals, which can occur even with low estrogen levels (it is partly a function of the androgen to estrogen balance in the breast).”

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.

^^^clomid and Nolva are suppressive??? Really? Compounds that stimulate natural production via increased LH are now considered suppressive? Who woulda thunk it so? I hope this quote gave you a hint of excitement, it was in men after all. So now that you can't claim the study was about women what will you fall back on?

I fall back on my claim that you need to read an endocrinology textbook or something of the sort. Nothing has changed with that except maybe now I urge you instead of recommend you. Have a great day sir

 

[DreDay187]

in the meanwhile

oh yeah... human grade

Very tasty!! Gear looks beautiful congrats. I ran pinnacle gear last and was satisfied but am planning on home brewing my next cycle. Ill be able to put in a tad extra powder and overdose it rather than risk it under dosed. Plus it is considerably cheaper. Very nice human grade though.

 

[clsmth700]

dude are you on tren ?

you have way more free time than me ill give you that. truth is i dont have much time to post here anymore so i have very few recent posts and they are a bit rushed but i stand behind my original claim to OP more or less

& i dont know that you have me in check mate , your info agrees with me about taking weeks or more to restore nuts to size .... the way your post was written implied that happened before PCT

to quote your "research" : "it just won't have the same effect at restoring the HPTA." = hmmmm sounds like prolonged recovery time to me buddy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i dont usually get into these bro science arguments on here. i get along .

but i probably set myself up for this with a vague first post a bit so fair is fair...

it is true that pct itself is not necessarily suppressive BUT how it is timed can prolong suppressive properties/side effects of gear

for the record there is nothing in your cut & pastes that i hadnt heard before ... i bet if you search my posts on here ive probably said half of it myself

 

[clsmth700]

i know a thing or two about pinnacle

and about homebrew too. hope you get good raws. agreed underdosed gear is the worst. Thats why I role HG baby.

Very tasty!! Gear looks beautiful congrats. I ran pinnacle gear last and was satisfied but am planning on home brewing my next cycle. Ill be able to put in a tad extra powder and overdose it rather than risk it under dosed. Plus it is considerably cheaper. Very nice human grade though.

 

[skinnypete]

You preferably shouldn't be running Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) in your PCT regardless so it's a moot point. yes I agree Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is suppressive but it also stimulates the testes and makes them receptive to SERM treatment.

Yet the serms would not be treating anything until the ester has cleared.As far as recovery goes.

 

[DreDay187]

dude are you on tren ?

hahaha no I actually just finished PCT a week or so ago and haven't ran tren yet. Thinking about it next cycle though. I'm just crazy in my own ways brother lol.

you have way more free time than me ill give you that. truth is i dont have much time to post here anymore so i have very few recent posts and they are a bit rushed but i stand behind my original claim to OP more or less

[/B]i had the day off today so I had more free time than usual. Even when I'm at work though, much of my job involves waiting for various things so I post from work a lot as well. Been feeling beat up from lack of sleep so I relaxed all day. I understand you may not have the time to post much on here but I never brought that up. We all post whenever is convenient, some of us more than others.[/B]

& i dont know that you have me in check mate , your info agrees with me about taking weeks or more to restore nuts to size .... the way your post was written implied that happened before PCT

I'm not sure i did mention time, whether weeks or not. My initial post was merely trying to say starting PCT too early is not suppressive but its not going to necessarily benefit recovery either. I'm trying to say Yes you have a very correct point about wanting the esters to clear bc recovery and endogenous production will not happen so long as supraphysiological testosterone levels are present. That part I never argued against, my argument was that starting pct early will not cause further suppression or make recovery worse, it will simply not be as effective if the testes are still atrophied. The pituitary can be making all the LH it wants, you can be taking all the clomid and Nolva you can get your hands on, but the testes will not produce testosterone and will not respond as favorably to SERM treatment so long as they are atrophied. Using HCG on cycle prevents this from being an issue bc the testes won't atrophy so there's no reason to blast HCG prior to PCT bc HCG is a suppressive compound whereas Nolva and clomid are not

to quote your "research" : "it just won't have the same effect at restoring the HPTA." = hmmmm sounds like prolonged recovery time to me buddy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You took that out of context. "It just won't have the same effect at restoring the HPTA" doesn't mean it makes your recovery any longer than it would have been naturally, it won't add time to your recovery by making you go backwards and suppress yourself further it will simply not have the effect of speeding up recovery which is what PCT is for. We both are splitting hairs here so I'll agree to call it down the middle.

i dont usually get into these bro science arguments on here. i get along .

If there's one thing I pride myself on its not spitting bro science brother. I back up everything I say. If I'm wrong or understood something wrong I am man enough to admit it but I want to be proved wrong with facts and evidence to support that I'm wrong. I won't simply believe someone just bc. I'm a science nerd at heart, I work with evidence not anecdotal stories or reports. I've never claimed you don't get along and honestly I can respect the fact that even with my baiting you, you maintained a level of civility and didn't take it as personal as I would have expected from many on here. I apologize for coming across as rude, that was unprofessional of me. I will still debate you if you wish and maybe we can both learn something but I extend my olive branch. You're a good bro and I respect you for not taking this argument to the next level (yes I swear I'm not on tren)

but i probably set myself up for this with a vague first post a bit so fair is fair...

i really only disagreed with pct being suppressive. I completely agree with you about needing esters to clear. Teste size is important to recovery but so is dissipating testosterone levels.

it is true that pct itself is not necessarily suppressive BUT how it is timed can prolong suppressive properties/side effects of gear

I agree the timing is important bc you won't recover as fast as possible. You view that as prolonging suppression and I view it as not speeding recovery, you say tomato I say tomato type of deal. Can we both agree on that

for the record there is nothing in your cut & pastes that i hadnt heard before ... i bet if you search my posts on here ive probably said half of it myself

I see you've been a member here for quite a while and you probably have more first hand experience with gear than I. When I find a topic or something I like I throw myself into it completely, almost with obsessive characteristics. I've researched my ass of to learn what I know and I'm proud of that fact but some things do come with hands on experience so in that light I'm sure I can learn a thing or two from you and I hope you can say the same.

I'm man enough to admit I go carried away in my responses to you. I took your responses in a harsher light than I should have possibly so again, I apologize for losing my cool with you.

 

[DreDay187]

i know a thing or two about pinnacle

and about homebrew too. hope you get good raws. agreed underdosed gear is the worst. Thats why I role HG baby.

Idk whether to take that Pinnacle comment positively or negatively haha. I've gotten some positive feedback for the raws, a few veteran members have ran them and had great results so hopefully the source is still good. If money were no object I would consider HG more but for the price of raws and among them, I could afford to over dose my gear and hopefully get more similar results to pharm grade stuff. Plus as i mentioned before, im a science nerd and get off on things like the conversion from raws to solutions lol. The gear you got does look appetizing though hahaha.

 

[DreDay187]

Yet the serms would not be treating anything until the ester has cleared.As far as recovery goes.

Which is why if you read my initial post in #99 you'll see I never argued that esters must clear. Testicular size (without HCG use on cycle) will come after the ester fully clears though and that ultimately is the last necessity for SERM's to be effective. Both must happen or recovery won't.

 

[clsmth700]

I'm man enough to admit I go carried away in my responses to you. I took your responses in a harsher light than I should have possibly so again, I apologize for losing my cool with you.

ok man, apology accepted. its all good.

 

[clsmth700]

im cool with pinnacle, had received a bunch of there gear to test out. was def. g2g

i just love my human grade. but i had a feeling you were also interested in the process and ritual of homebrewing and i think that is cool. i know what that is like.

Idk whether to take that Pinnacle comment positively or negatively haha. I've gotten some positive feedback for the raws, a few veteran members have ran them and had great results so hopefully the source is still good. If money were no object I would consider HG more but for the price of raws and among them, I could afford to over dose my gear and hopefully get more similar results to pharm grade stuff. Plus as i mentioned before, im a science nerd and get off on things like the conversion from raws to solutions lol. The gear you got does look appetizing though hahaha.

 

[taro59]

Great Post